Derby to Stoke-on-Trent Line

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Indeed they are, all of the way from Uttoxeter there is no dual carriageways and part of the way it is single track roads to Alton Towers.

If the quoted figure of 2.7 million annual visitors to Alton Towers is to be believed, without any aid from the rail network, the visitors to the theme park do indeed seem to access the site by the use of the road network.

Has there been any recent proposals to update any of the roads in the area that provide better visitor access ?

 

[thenorthern]

If the quoted figure of 2.7 million annual visitors to Alton Towers is to be believed, without any aid from the rail network, the visitors to the theme park do indeed seem to access the site by the use of the road network.

Has there been any recent proposals to update any of the roads in the area that provide better visitor access ?

I think there was something in the Uttoxeter Advertiser recently where there were proposals to upgrade the roads by Alton Towers refused to contribute to building new roads which meant that they were never built.

Weren't there proposals by Moorland and City Railways to open the line from Stoke-on-Trent to Alton though? Personally I would prefer Uttoxeter to Alton Towers although with JCB in the way its unlikely to happen/

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Personally I would prefer Uttoxeter to Alton Towers although with JCB in the way its unlikely to happen/

Just picture the local media headlines....

" Local workforce handed out redundancy notices as JCB forced to close to give Alton Towers a rail link"...

 

[merlodlliw]

About three and a half miles or so

The service you refer to (I was a DMU controller at Nottingham in those days) was an extension of the 0735 Nottingham Crewe to Llandudno on early Summer Saturdays and formed by (usually) 2x Class 120. Later in the summer season, it was formed by LHS with (diagrammed) 2x25.

I can't recollect it ever running in midweek though but maybe I'm not going back far enough.

I think its return was something like 1435 Llandudno - Nottingham which used to terminate at Derby if it was running more than 30 late (which was often!)

The DMU "Dragon Rapide" ran Mon/Sat, I met the 11.55am ex Manchester Exchange at Rhyl due 2.17pm every day for newspapers in the early 60s on platform two.,the DMU on its return arrived platform one almost at the same time,thinking about it, the DMU may well have returned to Notts,certainly Derby.
My then boss lived in Chester and often arrived the the "Rapide" around 1130a.m into Rhyl.
The train (DMU) carried the name Dragon Rapide,due to it passing the De Havilland aircraft factory at Broughton,Chester where they were built, now Airbus employing thousands.Someone on RF may have an early 60s time table.
Thanks for the mileage Alsager to Crewe, presume the headway is just a few minutes, five? so space for six each way up and down.

 

[thenorthern]

If they re-routed the line past JCB I reckon JCB would pay for a "JCB Workers Halt" JCB would pay for it but it would mean opening an entirely new route which Network Rail aren't that big on.

I reckon a properly advertised Alton Towers station with a direct link to Manchester could get about 2-300,000 passengers per year and a Rocester and a Denstone stations could get about 20,000 a year each but its one of those things that costs loads of money.

 

[Bevan Price]

Lack of rolling stock is another problem - some of the diagrams are still single 153s. If they get some more DMUs after the NW electrifications then they'll probably make everything 2-car before thinking about increasing the frequency. Extending it back to Nottingham would also be good, looking at the number of people who make connections at Derby, but this probably needs the remodelling to increase capacity at Derby station.

I agree - enough stock to make all services 2-car would be the best solution - until they eventually electrify the entire route to eliminate the future "dmu island" (after MML and XC electrification.).

 

[edwin_m]

Actually that's what I meant. The bay (or dock) at the south end of pl.1 could easily become a terminating platform for the Crewe service, in and out without having to cross the whole junction as it does to access pl.5.

Possibility for the Derby remodelling that is due in five years or so? It would certainly have less conflict than using platform 5 and avoids blocking a through platform. However I'm not sure how long it could be made without demolishing some of the new canopies.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Later weekday evening services and Sunday morning services please.

Perhaps once the signalling is transferred to a regional centre?

As regards Alton Towers, the road from Uttoxeter to Rocester (JCB) is not that bad, recently built, wide lanes and straight but single carriageway. Rocester through Alton village to the towers is awful. Especially negotiating the bend in the middle of Alton village. A temporary traffic control was installed for the past couple of seasons. As previously posted, the road link idea is essentially dead as there is no money - its only real purpose would be to serve Alton Towers and they won't pay.

The MCR / Churnet Valley proposal has met with opposition from locals as it requires re-instating the track beyond Oakamoor to the former Alton Station (presently a popular and pleasant walkway and the station building is a Landmark Trust holiday home). The station site at Alton is in the bottom of the valley whereas Alton Towers is at the top. The public road between the two has no footway and traffic to / from the towers uses that road, although an off road route, through Alton Towers owned land, could be made available. Regardless, years ago people were prepared to walk such distances, nowadays I suspect not.

 

[thenorthern]

Regardless, years ago people were prepared to walk such distances, nowadays I suspect not.

I would think they would extend the monorail or have a bus link for it, I know there is an Alton Towers bus that runs to Uttoxeter.

 

[Welshman]

If, and when more units become available, I wonder if it would be worth considering an additional [perhaps 2-hourly] service from Crewe direct to Nottingham via the Stenson Junction-Castle Donington-Sheet Stores Junction route?

It would remove the need for passengers to/from Nottingham having to change at Derby, and restore the though link without suffering the capacity problems at Derby station.

Were it also to be limited stop, say Crewe-Stoke-Uttoxeter-Beeston-Nottingham, it might also be able to compete with the A50 & A453 roads.

 

[The Planner]

Later weekday evening services and Sunday morning services please.

Perhaps once the signalling is transferred to a regional centre?

I would imagine this line is a fair way from going into a ROC at the minute unless someone knows different. If the money was found to provide an extra shift at the boxes you could do it now.

 

[33056]

I would imagine this line is a fair way from going into a ROC at the minute unless someone knows different.

2016 according to the most recent Operating Strategy; whether it will happen or not........

 

[The Planner]

Quicker than I thought. Probably seen as an easy win as it will all go on one workstation and reduces head count fairly significantly.

 

[merlodlliw]

There was also the "Welsh Dragon" which shuttled between Rhyl and Llandudno the service down the Conwy valley which were opperated by DMUs in late fifties

Ah the the Welsh Dragon, in the steam days when I used the Dragon it was a three coach, I can not recall if it was DVT type,the three carriages were non corridor, the last dragon from Llandudno was 1030pm,it arrived into Rhyl on bay one? next to platform one (Rhyl had four bays then),the elephant bay at Rhyl was still in use late 50s, used by Capt Prince Cox Circus. Happy days.

Bob

 

[bunnahabhain]

As previously posted, the road link idea is essentially dead as there is no money - its only real purpose would be to serve Alton Towers and they won't pay.

Alton Towers are already paying £100,000 p/a for the transport infrastructure in the area.

 

[thenorthern]

If, and when more units become available, I wonder if it would be worth considering an additional [perhaps 2-hourly] service from Crewe direct to Nottingham via the Stenson Junction-Castle Donington-Sheet Stores Junction route?

It would remove the need for passengers to/from Nottingham having to change at Derby, and restore the though link without suffering the capacity problems at Derby station.

Were it also to be limited stop, say Crewe-Stoke-Uttoxeter-Beeston-Nottingham, it might also be able to compete with the A50 & A453 roads.

A faster service from Uttoxeter to Stoke would be popular with Uttoxeter residents and I know there are a fair few on the train at Uttoxeter and Stoke who travel to Nottingham. I don't think is something EMT would do though because it would involve missing out Derby which is something they wouldn't want to do.

 

[Welshman]

Ah the the Welsh Dragon, in the steam days when I used the Dragon it was a three coach, I can not recall if it was DVT type,the three carriages were non corridor, the last dragon from Llandudno was 1030pm,it arrived into Rhyl on bay one? next to platform one (Rhyl had four bays then),the elephant bay at Rhyl was still in use late 50s, used by Capt Prince Cox Circus. Happy days.

Bob

Didn't it start with being an auto train, then for a while becoming a 4-car Derby Lightweight dmu, before finally reverting to being steam-hauled again as the dmu was used elsewhere?

And I agree with you. The photos I've seen of Rhyl station in those days show it to have been a majestic major traffic centre - before rationalisation and Morrison's coming to the goods yard!

 

[edwin_m]

If, and when more units become available, I wonder if it would be worth considering an additional [perhaps 2-hourly] service from Crewe direct to Nottingham via the Stenson Junction-Castle Donington-Sheet Stores Junction route?

It would remove the need for passengers to/from Nottingham having to change at Derby, and restore the though link without suffering the capacity problems at Derby station.

Were it also to be limited stop, say Crewe-Stoke-Uttoxeter-Beeston-Nottingham, it might also be able to compete with the A50 & A453 roads.

I think it would be better for one of the Nottingham-Birmingham trains to avoid Derby, with the Crewe train extended from Derby to Nottingham in the path thus released. Nottingham-Birmingham is a much bigger market and the time spent reversing at Derby makes it pretty slow. There are plenty of other trains from Derby to Birmingham so the only major losers would be Derby to Burton and Tamworth.

 

[merlodlliw]

Didn't it start with being an auto train, then for a while becoming a 4-car Derby Lightweight dmu, before finally reverting to being steam-hauled again as the dmu was used elsewhere?

And I agree with you. The photos I've seen of Rhyl station in those days show it to have been a majestic major traffic centre - before rationalisation and Morrison's coming to the goods yard!

You may well be right about the DMU, I never used it, indeed Rhyl was a very busy station, summer Saturdays traffic was enormous,with local services starting at Rhyl for Corwen/Denbigh/Ruthin, plus local stoppers to Chester.
I recall reliefs Rhyl to Manchester/Birmingham/etc etc, all from three platforms and four bays. Now its just two platforms and a up fast. In fact one of the few stations Nat Rail don't own,belongs to the Denbighshire County Council.
Bob

 

[dggar]

You may well be right about the DMU, I never used it, indeed Rhyl was a very busy station, summer Saturdays traffic was enormous,with local services starting at Rhyl for Corwen/Denbigh/Ruthin, plus local stoppers to Chester.
I recall reliefs Rhyl to Manchester/Birmingham/etc etc, all from three platforms and four bays. Now its just two platforms and a up fast. In fact one of the few stations Nat Rail don't own,belongs to the Denbighshire County Council.
Bob

3 of the bays faced West. Only bay 4(at the Eastern end of Platform 1) faced towards Chester. I don't ever recall seeing a train departing East from Platform 2. Platform 3 was signalled to be able to dispatch trains either East or West. My trainspotting days at Rhyl were 1960-1962.

 

[thenorthern]

Didn't Nottingham City Council want a new Nottingham to Manchester train that avoids Sheffield, here is there answer, run a semi-fast 2 hourly Nottingham-Beeston-Uttoxeter-Stoke-Macclesfield-Stockport-Manchester Piccadilly via the Sheetstores-Stenson line.

 

[Amberley54]

Alton Towers are already paying £100,000 p/a for the transport infrastructure in the area.

On top of a cool £2 million + in non-domestic rates each year that goes straight to Gideon at number 11.

 

[Tomnick]

Didn't Nottingham City Council want a new Nottingham to Manchester train that avoids Sheffield, here is there answer, run a semi-fast 2 hourly Nottingham-Beeston-Uttoxeter-Stoke-Macclesfield-Stockport-Manchester Piccadilly via the Sheetstores-Stenson line.

I doubt it'd be much quicker, if at all, than the existing service via Sheffield (even with the current diversion via the 'old road').

 

[edwin_m]

Nottingham to Manchester can be done via Derby and Stoke in about 2hr 25min including about 10min for each change. So a through service on the same route with fewer stops might just about match the 1hr 50min or so via Sheffield (pre-Unstone timetable). However it wouldn't get anywhere near the 1hr 30min or so that would be possible for a service that avoided Sheffield via the Dore south curve.

 

[merlodlliw]

3 of the bays faced West. Only bay 4(at the Eastern end of Platform 1) faced towards Chester. I don't ever recall seeing a train departing East from Platform 2. Platform 3 was signalled to be able to dispatch trains either East or West. My trainspotting days at Rhyl were 1960-1962.

The specials departed from platform three as you describe,a few also departed Bay four,spaced between the Chester/Rhyl locals.
Platform three disappeared to the Co Op first,then Morrisons took it over,there was a huge marshaling yard & goods buildings on the now Morrisons site.
Rhyl station is a shadow of the old days, but still sees up to three ups an hour at certain times of the day.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Nottingham to Manchester can be done via Derby and Stoke in about 2hr 25min including about 10min for each change. So a through service on the same route with fewer stops might just about match the 1hr 50min or so via Sheffield (pre-Unstone timetable). However it wouldn't get anywhere near the 1hr 30min or so that would be possible for a service that avoided Sheffield via the Dore south curve.

Isn't Sheffield too big a settlement to be "avoided" ?

 

[Whistler40145]

If an alternate express service was available, then I would say yes.

 

[edwin_m]

Yes I was thinking an hourly Nottingham-Chesterfield-Manchester in addition to the Norwich-Liverpool, with one of them routed Nottingham-Sheffield-Manchester as now and the other going Nottingham-Derby-Manchester but missing Sheffield. This would be after the Northern Hub and the Derby remodelling which hopefully would create enough capacity.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes I was thinking an hourly Nottingham-Chesterfield-Manchester in addition to the Norwich-Liverpool, with one of them routed Nottingham-Sheffield-Manchester as now and the other going Nottingham-Derby-Manchester but missing Sheffield. This would be after the Northern Hub and the Derby remodelling which hopefully would create enough capacity.

My thanks are afforded to you for this clarification.

 

[thenorthern]

One thing that I was thinking the other day is if more trains stopped at Peartree would it have reasonable usage levels.

Not too long ago Peartree was served by 2 trains per day but now its served by 5 trains per day and has semi-reasonable times with both morning and evening trains stopping there.