Destination Swapping at Crewe Station 23/2/24

[Metrolink]

(Mods feel free to move this thread where appropriate)

Today, I witnessed a strange working in Crewe station - something I have never witnessed at any station, by any operator, ever, but unsurprisingly the operator in question was Avanti

At around noon, 1M09 Glasgow Central to London (see: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C27687/2024-02-23/detailed#allox_id=0) Euston makes an unadvertised call on Platform 6. Meanwhile, 1H69 London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly (See: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C27666/2024-02-23/detailed#allox_id=0) calls on Platform 11. The London bound service, already roughly 20 minutes behind schedule emptied out and caused swathes of people who (without my own realisation) where ushered on to the Manchester bound service renamed ‘An additional Avanti service’. The 11-car service after being emptied out on to the platform and helped by a solitary member of station staff shouting out the new platform numbers for each new service and both services after standing for a while longer reverse to their respective new destinations of Manchester and London.

Is this commonplace at Crewe or similar stations nowadays? Is the cause of this maintenance (thats what I immediately thought) or staffing? I have tried to find reasons for this - either way it is yet another incompetence of AWC and a huge disruption to the passengers of both trains, many of whom on the 11-car service were left standing in aisles after being moved on to a 9-car service. If anyone knows anything about this it would be greatly appreciated.

 

[800001]

(Mods feel free to move this thread where appropriate)

Today, I witnessed a strange working in Crewe station - something I have never witnessed at any station, by any operator, ever, but unsurprisingly the operator in question was Avanti

At around noon, 1M09 Glasgow Central to London (see: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C27687/2024-02-23/detailed#allox_id=0) Euston makes an unadvertised call on Platform 6. Meanwhile, 1H69 London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly (See: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C27666/2024-02-23/detailed#allox_id=0) calls on Platform 11. The London bound service, already roughly 20 minutes behind schedule emptied out and caused swathes of people who (without my own realisation) where ushered on to the Manchester bound service renamed ‘An additional Avanti service’. The 11-car service after being emptied out on to the platform and helped by a solitary member of station staff shouting out the new platform numbers for each new service and both services after standing for a while longer reverse to their respective new destinations of Manchester and London.

Is this commonplace at Crewe or similar stations nowadays? Is the cause of this maintenance (thats what I immediately thought) or staffing? I have tried to find reasons for this - either way it is yet another incompetence of AWC and a huge disruption to the passengers of both trains, many of whom on the 11-car service were left standing in aisles after being moved on to a 9-car service. If anyone knows anything about this it would be greatly appreciated.

Happens daily across the country.
Could have been a fault on either train preventing continuing in a certain direction.
Could be it’s needed at a certain depot and by swapping is the only way to do so.
Yes it’s inconvenient for the customers, but someone somewhere is doing it for the bigger picture.

 

[northwichcat]

Are you sure about the services you've referred to and linked to? The Manchester bound one you've given got to Crewe over 4 hours after the London bound one left.

And yes set swaps happen all the time. For example, this TPE service last Friday had a set swap at York: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C12822/2024-02-16/detailed#allox_id=1 Although, in that case it looks like the replacement set had arrived empty from Doncaster.

 

[hexagon789]

And yes set swaps happen all the time. For example, this TPE service last Friday had a set swap at York: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C12822/2024-02-16/detailed#allox_id=1 Although, in that case it looks like the replacement set had arrived empty from Doncaster.

1S74 and 1S75 appear to have done this at Preston today:

Realtime Trains | 1S74 1612 Liverpool Lime Street to Glasgow Central | 23/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 1S74 1612 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to Glasgow Central on 23/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1S75 1604 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh | 23/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 1S75 1604 departure from Manchester Airport to Edinburgh on 23/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The reason for this set of destination swaps is less clear to me though!

Both northbound 397s...

 

[Metrolink]

Happens daily across the country.
Could have been a fault on either train preventing continuing in a certain direction.
Could be it’s needed at a certain depot and by swapping is the only way to do so.
Yes it’s inconvenient for the customers, but someone somewhere is doing it for the bigger picture.

Thanks for the information. Is it the case that Avanti could’ve prepared better for this situation? Or does it work out this way no matter the station/line/operator?

A part of me can’t help but think it would be easier to cancel one London train and let the others take on those passengers. I can’t help but think there are some unlucky passengers who have been misled to the wrong destination, but maybe I caught a disorganised snapshot today rather than the full view. Thanks for your response.

 

[gnolife]

1S74 and 1S75 appear to have done this at Preston today:

Realtime Trains | 1S74 1612 Liverpool Lime Street to Glasgow Central | 23/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 1S74 1612 departure from Liverpool Lime Street to Glasgow Central on 23/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 1S75 1604 Manchester Airport to Edinburgh | 23/02/2024

Real-time train running information for 1S75 1604 departure from Manchester Airport to Edinburgh on 23/02/2024. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

The reason for this set of destination swaps is less clear to me though!

Both northbound 397s...

The Glasgow one stays in Scotland overnight. The Edinburgh works back to Manchester, so presumably they wanted it back to the depot there for some reason.

 

[800001]

Thanks for the information. Is it the case that Avanti could’ve prepared better for this situation? Or does it work out this way no matter the station/line/operator?

A part of me can’t help but think it would be easier to cancel one London train and let the others take on those passengers. I can’t help but think there are some unlucky passengers who have been misled to the wrong destination, but maybe I caught a disorganised snapshot today rather than the full view. Thanks for your response.

Without knowing the real reason for the swap it’s hard to say.

One unit could have developed a fault and it’s a car of swapping.

With all swaps they could go better, good announcements on train to advise people to go to a certain platform, announcements on the station etc

 

[Tramfan]

The reason for this set of destination swaps is less clear to me though!

Both northbound 397s...

Possibly either a unit fault needing attention, but not enough to take the train immediately out of service, or the unit being close to a mileage based exam?

 

[Metrolink]

Are you sure about the services you've referred to and linked to? The Manchester bound one you've given got to Crewe over 4 hours after the London bound one left.

And yes set swaps happen all the time. For example, this TPE service last Friday had a set swap at York: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C12822/2024-02-16/detailed#allox_id=1 Although, in that case it looks like the replacement set had arrived empty from Doncaster.

Apologies if the link has not worked. I believe it was the 1210 northbound to Piccadilly, and the 1143 train southbound intended to pass if thats easier to find on RTT. The train headcode is carried over if I am correct so it appears to be one journey. The Manchester service shows a unit from Euston - Crewe but none from Crewe - Piccadilly if that clears anything up.

Without knowing the real reason for the swap it’s hard to say.

One unit could have developed a fault and it’s a car of swapping.

With all swaps they could go better, good announcements on train to advise people to go to a certain platform, announcements on the station etc

Indeed. On further exploration the 1315 out of Manchester Piccadilly was cancelled due to train fault so that probably resolves it. I didn’t realise swaps like this took place, let alone with such poor execution.

 

[hexagon789]

Possibly either a unit fault needing attention, but not enough to take the train immediately out of service, or the unit being close to a mileage based exam?

No idea, but it seemed strange. I could understand more if a northbound and southbound swapped.

 

[DavidGrain]

Happened to me at Derby many years ago. I was on an XC Voyager going to somewhere in Yorkshire (probably Sheffield). I knew there was a problem with the train as I had overheard the guards at the crew change in Birmingham discussing the fact that one of the motors was not working. At Derby the driver decided to withdraw the train from service because I think other motors were failing. We were switched to a southbound Voyager which was reversed and the passengers on that train were tipped onto a Nottingham-Birmingham train.

 

[glasgowniteowl]

It was a set swap for a faulty wiper

 

[6Gman]

It was a set swap for a faulty wiper

That was my initial thought - good to have it confirmed!

It may have been messy at Crewe but at least everyone (should have) got to where they were heading.

 

[Horizon22]

Indeed. On further exploration the 1315 out of Manchester Piccadilly was cancelled due to train fault so that probably resolves it. I didn’t realise swaps like this took place, let alone with such poor execution.

They do happen, but they're not highly common. GWR do them at Bristol Temple Meads as an example. You usually need an intercity service and enough platforms to get it to work normally. It is normally train fault related.

 

[Metrolink]

It was a set swap for a faulty wiper

Thanks for the info.

They do happen, but they're not highly common. GWR do them at Bristol Temple Meads as an example. You usually need an intercity service and enough platforms to get it to work normally.

Luckily there is no shortage of platforms at Crewe!

 

[QJ]

Not that unusual. Having to swap trains happened a few times to me at Chester when I should have been on a through train to my destination. I've even had that done to me in Switzerland.

 

[800001]

Not that unusual. Having to swap trains happened a few times to me at Chester when I should have been on a through train to my destination. I've even had that done to me in Switzerland.

It happens every day across the network. It’s not an unusual activity, as you say even happens on other countries.

 

[DavidGrain]

A year ago I was on a TfW train when we got swapped at Shrewsbury. We were on a full 2 car train when we were asked to move to a 4 car train. Good idea but the 4 car train had one car locked out of use and from Shrewsbury to Birmingham more and more people got on.

 

[GordonT]

One of the advantages of HSTs on routes which had/have them was being able to swap power cars at major intermediate stations in similar circumstances without pax requiring to be decanted.

 

[james_the_xv]

One of the advantages of HSTs on routes which had/have them was being able to swap power cars at major intermediate stations in similar circumstances without pax requiring to be decanted.

How often did this happen out of interest? I'd have though they'd only really be swapped overnight/during maintenance?

 

[irish_rail]

How often did this happen out of interest? I'd have though they'd only really be swapped overnight/during maintenance?

Used to happen at Plymouth and Edinburgh to name two examples, though Plymouth less so in past 10 years or so. Pretty sure it was happening in Edinburgh well into the 21st century. Probably other locations as well?

 

[800001]

A year ago I was on a TfW train when we got swapped at Shrewsbury. We were on a full 2 car train when we were asked to move to a 4 car train. Good idea but the 4 car train had one car locked out of use and from Shrewsbury to Birmingham more and more people got on.

Still an extra carriage to what you originally had!

 

[The exile]

Without knowing the real reason for the swap it’s hard to say.

One unit could have developed a fault and it’s a car of swapping.

With all swaps they could go better, good announcements on train to advise people to go to a certain platform, announcements on the station etc

Usually done pretty well at Bristol - announced on trains in advance etc. of course, there are people whose conversations are soooo much more important than the announcement….

 

[43066]

It happens every day across the network. It’s not an unusual activity, as you say even happens on other countries.

I bet it even happens in Switzerland .

The Derby example is certainly something that happens more often than not - the last one back to London from Sheffield will sometimes swap sets at Derby to get a unit into Etches Park, with the fresh unit finishing the day in London.

 

[GordonT]

How often did this happen out of interest? I'd have though they'd only really be swapped overnight/during maintenance?

Was normal practice at Edinburgh particularly for journeys heading from/to Inverness or Aberdeen on occasions where a problem with one power car prevented it from completing the journey. The substitute power car would be optimally positioned on a spare parallel track in Waverley in advance of the arrival of the subject set and the changeover of power cars took place following a long-established time saving routine whilst passengers were alighting and boarding in the normal way.

 

[6Gman]

One of the advantages of HSTs on routes which had/have them was being able to swap power cars at major intermediate stations in similar circumstances without pax requiring to be decanted.

I remember them trying that at Holyhead once - ended up with both power cars facing the same (wrong) way.

 

[anothertyke]

It has happened to me on the Eurostar at Lille. The northbound from Paris had a fault and was not allowed into the tunnel. So we exchanged trains there with an unscheduled stop.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

I was once, along with other passengers obviously, transferred from a Glasgow bound service at Preston onto what had been a Euston bound service. My original train then set off to Euston. The now Glasgow bound train had no heating and an announcement was made that the shop could not do hot drinks.
Obviously control had decided that the 'faulty' train was best running to Glasgow rather than Euston.
My only issue with this at the time was that an explanation would have been nice.

 

[GordonT]

I was once, along with other passengers obviously, transferred from a Glasgow bound service at Preston onto what had been a Euston bound service. My original train then set off to Euston. The now Glasgow bound train had no heating and an announcement was made that the shop could not do hot drinks.
Obviously control had decided that the 'faulty' train was best running to Glasgow rather than Euston.
My only issue with this at the time was that an explanation would have been nice.

You've put your finger on a vexatious problem which occurs repeatedly in services to the public, railways and other providers, namely failing to keep customers fully in the picture when things go wrong.

 

[MCR247]

(Mods feel free to move this thread where appropriate)

Today, I witnessed a strange working in Crewe station - something I have never witnessed at any station, by any operator, ever, but unsurprisingly the operator in question was Avanti

At around noon, 1M09 Glasgow Central to London (see: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C27687/2024-02-23/detailed#allox_id=0) Euston makes an unadvertised call on Platform 6. Meanwhile, 1H69 London Euston to Manchester Piccadilly (See: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C27666/2024-02-23/detailed#allox_id=0) calls on Platform 11. The London bound service, already roughly 20 minutes behind schedule emptied out and caused swathes of people who (without my own realisation) where ushered on to the Manchester bound service renamed ‘An additional Avanti service’. The 11-car service after being emptied out on to the platform and helped by a solitary member of station staff shouting out the new platform numbers for each new service and both services after standing for a while longer reverse to their respective new destinations of Manchester and London.

Is this commonplace at Crewe or similar stations nowadays? Is the cause of this maintenance (thats what I immediately thought) or staffing? I have tried to find reasons for this - either way it is yet another incompetence of AWC and a huge disruption to the passengers of both trains, many of whom on the 11-car service were left standing in aisles after being moved on to a 9-car service. If anyone knows anything about this it would be greatly appreciated.

Looking at RTT that actually seems quite clever in terms of the unit swap. The execution of it at Crewe doesn’t sound like it went quite as slick for the passengers, however.

From what I can work out using RTT, 390016 coming down from Glasgow got delayed on the way down (no idea whether this was down to the unit, congestion or whatever) and as you say swapped for an 11 car that was going to Manchester at Crewe.

016 then went up to Piccadilly, arriving 20 mins late at 1305. What seems to be the return working, 1A42 to Euston, was then cancelled due to a problem with the train (M8). I imagine it then went to Longsight.

138, the 11 car returned south on its new working, arriving Euston over 30 mins late, but then worked the 1416 to Edinburgh.

So, presumably, something was wrong with 016, and this is how Avanti managed to get it to a depot, with only one casualty 1A42 which they may have deemed the less busiest of potential trains to cancel