Detailed route of HS2 into Manchester

[deltic]

Big car park space, big motorway connection, largest airport outside of London, 19 domestic flights per day to heathrow to be replaced, local transport interchange, need any more reasons for stopping it at manc airport?

Also, from Manchester the likes of some major legacy and international airlines have flights...

American Airlines: Daily to JFK and O'Hare
Delta Airlines: Daily to JFK and Atlanta
Continental Airlines: Twice Daily to Newark
Pakistan International Airlines: 10 weekly to Islamabad and Lahore (this is more than Heathrow)
Emirates: Twice daily to Dubai
Virgin Atlantic: 10 weekly to Orlando
Ethiad Airlines: 6 weekly to Abu Dhabi
Quatar Airways: Daily to Doha
US Airways: Daily to Philadelphia with charters to Charlotte
Singapore Airlines: Daily to Singapore

Not to mention the reigonal arm on every airline in europe.

And if a link to Heathrow is gained, MAN could end up being used as a 'domestic hub' for Heathrow, the same for Birmingham International, becoming an annexe of Heathrow if it had direct, airside codeshared trains between BHX and LHR, this would be much easyer to implement at MAN due to the terminal layout and space available for the HS2 station as indicated on the map, a moving walkway, airside, from T1 via T2 could be provided, in conjunction with the expansion of T2 at Manchester to include 4 VLA stands it would be very useful indeed.

On numerous occations I have known of passengers from London travel to Manchester with the current transport situation because either flights are cheaper, or more convenient than LHR or LGW. And with space at both of these at a premium, and a 1hr direct link to Euston or LHR on the cards, with intergrated ticketing though airline alliances, the prospect of using Manchester as an international gateway in place of LHR is becoming more and more favourable, especially with all the space available for expansion at Manchester, and the space to add 'premier intergtated terminals' where theoretically you could travel without seeing one standard class passenger in business or 1st class.

Need I post any more reasons for having a station intergrated fully into Manchester Airport?

PS: The northern hub report only mentions the impact of the two options developed on future routing of HS2, it does nothing to sudgest where it will be routed at all.

It is still not clear to me why many people will travel on HS2 from London to fly from Manchester and talking to airlines and BAA they don't think it will happen either. With the Airport City proposals Manchester airport may become a commercial hub which is well served by public transport and the motorway network and therefore be a good location for a park and ride station. But it is unlikely to have much impact on air traffic at all.

 

[WatcherZero]

Why not, heck Birmingham Airport will be closer to central London than Stansted

 

[Nym]

Hi there,
Here's a widely different alternative for you all:

HS2 comes up from the south between Knustford & Wilmslow.
It tunnels under the runways and there is a station built next to the M56 junction 5 (where the open air car parks are).
It heads north west towards Altrincham in the non-built up areas then tunnels under the residential areas (Broadheath).
The route joins the trackbed of the Altrincham to Glazebrook route and cross the Manchester ship canal.

The route crosses the Manchester / Liverpool line between Irlam and Glazebrook stations.

Just north of this spot is where you could have a triangle junction, keep heading north for Scotland or turn to the east for Manchester.

The Manchester branch would curve around to the North of the M62 and meet up with the existing line near Junction 12 of the M62.

This existing line would need to be quadrupled for a short stretch to Patricroft station. There's room to do this just without residential demolition.

After Patricroft the HS line would take over the route parallel to the M602 into Salford.

The existing line could be diverted after Patricroft onto the disused allignment through Elesmere Park and Swinton Park with a new short(ish) tunnel to connect back to the Swinton - Salford Crescent line.

The HS line would then terminate just to the west of the inner ring road. This would require the demolition of part of the Regent retail park but this is much simpler than residential, commercial or industrial.
It might be possible to stick a new "normal" station on the same complex opening up a fair number of links.

I think this route is a little longer than a route to Picadilly but the curves can be smoother and it avoids significant engineering in residential areas...
Any comments?
Jason

I'd thought of some of these before, I'm not being horrible here, but:

Building the HS Station in what is currently Staff West and T2 Long Stay (Between the T2/Cargo Apron and the M56).
Tunnels round here would be expensive to bore, and it would eat into the land that is currently held there for apron expansion, the space that is taken up in them car parks is part of the airport's 20 year development plan to extend T2 to have upto 30 - 40 covered stands, and extention of the Cargo Terminal, this is why I placed the HS Station to the north of the M56 spur, within moving walkway distance of the current railway station (to be retained) and T2 / T1 & T3 (via the current GTI). I have also heard ideas of placing the station to the East of the runways, theres one big problem with doing this, the runways are in the way.
Placing a station at Manchester Airport would be there for three reasons;
1) Serve the area of Wythenshawe and West Stockport
2) Serve as a Park & Ride for all of Southern Greater Manchester and North Cheshire
3) Have a modal shift from Air to Rail for Manchester - London and Manchester Airport - Heathrow Airport passenger flows
The latter will only be able to be acceivable if the rail station is able to be treated as a terminal of the airport, for part of it'self at least. With 1 train per hour to Heathrow, possibly extended to Gatwick, to cater for domestic connecting flights, of course, with ICAO and IATA codeshared services.

Alt'ham to Glazebrook over the ship canal; good idea, I beleive I used this one myself aswell, however, it would add a lot of journey time onto the Manchester CC penitration time. Even running at a 125 round that way, it would be quicker to run at 75/90 or 100 intertwined with the stoppers on the styal branch at 3 or 4tph. With guage improvments and possible passing loops at East Didsbury. Paths from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly on a clear run can make it (within current linespeeds) in under 12 minutes.

The line next to the M602 is the Chat Moss route that is soon to be as busy as the Bolton line, both of these are very congested, or shortly to become congested.

I'm assuming (correct me if I'm wrong) that your propsed HS station would be on the empty land near Ordstall Lane to the West of the Manchester & Salford IRR between the Exchange - Ordstall Lane Jcn and the Windsor Link. Yes, there is plenty of space, and yes, there isn't likely to be any development, (industry is scared off by horrible traffic, and the housing market for that area just isnt worth it). IMO, it's just too far out from the major interchanges in Manchester, the nearest railway stations would be Salford Central and Deansgate. Considering it would take 10 additional minutes to get there, the time benifits of the HS line start to look less attractive to joe public, because it's further out.

It does very well to avoid the residential areas, but IMO the time penalties are just too high. 2 to 3 minutes to save a massive tunnel would be worth it, but not 10 - 15mins.

The dilema I'm facing is deciding witch way to attack Manchester, doing all my looking I have only found two viable routes, one to each terminus option (Victoria or Piccadilly areas). Personally, for the inital network I'm airing toward approaching Manc Airport from the South East, and leave to the North West, heading through the former motorway alignment, over to Sale Water Park, and have a delta junction there, one line either tunneling to longsight to get into piccadilly or running allong side the met into Exchange campus. With the onward connection as shown, this would result in a 5 - 10min time penalty for through services, but the line would be built with the option to tunnel under alt'ham direct to glazebrook. All shown on my overlay of google maps.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is still not clear to me why many people will travel on HS2 from London to fly from Manchester and talking to airlines and BAA they don't think it will happen either. With the Airport City proposals Manchester airport may become a commercial hub which is well served by public transport and the motorway network and therefore be a good location for a park and ride station. But it is unlikely to have much impact on air traffic at all.

Lower fares from lower landing fees. Simple.

IIRC landing a passenger at Heathrow costs in excess of £17.20, landing a passenger at Manchester is £6ish. Theres also lower landing fees for the aircraft itself etc. Starting to look like it's worth getting an airline sponsered and booked ticket to Manchester Airport rather than pay bigger fares. And in the reverse, MAN will never be the hub that LHR is, so rather than flying their passengers from MAN to LHR, British Airways, bmi and Virgin Atlantic can train them rather than fly them to Heathrow, not that hard to codeshare.

PS: Whenever I priced my clients' over to the US or for myself, it was ALWAYS cheaper to route via Manchester on a SkyTeam or Star Alliance carrier, either on one of the direct US flights, changing at a US hub, or flying by the likes of KLM, Lufthansa or Air France to one of their hubs. I even had one person where it was cheaper to put them on a train from London to Manchester Airport, and fly them from there.

PPS EDIT: Any tunnels under that area would need to be quite deep, so the chances are the station would need to be underground aswell (The depth is due to the configuration of the hydrant system used on the apron)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I do not expect the local councillors would fare very well in those wards that would no longer be connected by train. Remember each station still has the same frequency of service to the main destinations (Airport and Piccadilly).

If indeed it is combined with a Thameslink coring of the Deansgate Oxford Road 13/14 route to maximise capacity there then actually the citizens of the A34 corridor would benefit from regular trains to all Manchester stations and at least one further destination (one would get Blackpool, one Newcastle, one Wales, one Liverpool and one Southport) based on the stops now being made by the longer distance services but 1 stop only per train.

The connections between each station can be served by bus and the new metrolink from East Didsbury will offer good alternatives as well.

Anyway, it is just a thought, not something I would see as hugely realistic.

"the connections between each station can be served by bus...."

What route do you propose for the bus route to take from Manchester Airport-Heald Green-Gatley-East Didbury? The road loadings of all main link roads at rush hour are extremely high and I suggest that you take the time to study the road use figures registered.:roll:

The traffic density in the airport area is at a very high level and the cancellation of the final stage of the SEMMS project from the roundabout at the end of the fast A555 link road from Bramhall to Handforth to its final projected terminal conjoining at the airport has led to over-capacity through both Heald Green (Finney Lane) and Handforth (Stannylands Road), both of which carry traffic flows to the airport.

From Heald Green-Gatley-East Didsbury, there is only the A34 as a direct route as the River Mersey is a natural barrier. The A34 at rush hour takes a very high traffic loading from the Cheadle Royal underpass onwards towards East Didsbury. Please remember that the A34 has two high quality sections specially constructed from Alderley Park (near to the AstraZeneca complex) to South Wilmslow and, at the conjoining roundabout, from South Wilmslow to Cheadle Royal. This has led to an even higher loading figure on the A34.

Right....this has explained the current road position as regards your suggestion of bus travel. How long do you expect your bus to take from the airport to East Didsbury, stopping at Heald Green, Gatley and East Didsbury.

You obviously know what the commuter rush-hour loadings are at these three stations, so how many buses will be required and at what timings to carry the number of such passengers served by these three stations.

Now we come to your Metrolink route from East Didsbury to Manchester that the buses described above will decant onto the trams. How many trams will be required to carry out the passenger loadings onwards to Manchester?

Let me update you as to the current position of the new tram route from Manchester to East Didsbury. This is being constructed in two sections as follows:-
Manchester to St.Werburgh's Road (Chorlton)......Summer 2011
St.Werburgh's Road (Chorlton) to East Didsbury....Summer 2013

Now we come to the nub of the matter. How long would it take for a passenger from Heald Green (as an example) to reach Manchester in the rush hour by having to use a bus to East Didsbury then a tram from East Didsbury to Manchester. There would be the matter of having to change from bus to tram at East Didsbury. Would there be a joint bus and tram ticket facility available with day, weekly and monthly tickets available.

There is another option available for commuters which (whisper it quietly) Northern Rail came up with a "cunning plan" to actually provide an electrified rail line use of Class 323 3-car units offering an all-stations shuttle service from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly that commuters can use in addition to other services from the airport that stop at such stations. This has the advantage that commuters do not have to travel by bus on part of the route, then by tram onwards. There is the option of only needing to purchase a rail ticket.

I have looked into the Northern Rail secret plan, which they have cunningly hidden in a pubication called a rail timetable. It must have been one of their "short term plans" as this expires on 21st May 2011....so they might not want to proceed with their plans, but here is an example of their "cunning plan"
at rush hour morning peak:-
Manchester Airport............0746
Heald Green.....................0749
Gatley............................0752
East Didsbury...................0755
Burnage..........................0757
Mauldeth Road.................0759
Manchester Piccadilly........0811

There must be some use of witchcraft employed here by Northern Rail in that they have used as an alternative to your suggestions for commuter use from Manchester Airport to Manchester Piccadilly. They claim to serve 5 stations between both termini by a 3-car electric train with lots of seats that stops at ALL stops and does the journey in 26 minutes.

Never mind, I have a suggestion that might help you. Go to each of the 5 stations...say on a Monday to Friday....spend a morning rush hour at each one putting your plan to the commuters and give each of them a flyer...You could do your survey in a week. Tell them that your plan is far better that the current Northern Rail plan...really push your case hard!! Don't be bashful by ending your plan by saying..... "Anyway, it is just a thought, not something I would see as hugely realistic." Have the courage of your convictions!!!!

Once you have all the figures to hand, please don't forget to come back to us all on this forum where you can proudly boast that once the trams run to East Didsbury in 2013, you will be the newest transport magnate in the North West. Not even a certain Mr. Hudson who was last heard somewhere in the York area will be able to hold a candle to you. It must take much strength of mind and an iron will to take forward your plan.

 

[Invincibles]

Thank you for taking the time to deconstruct the plan, was there ever any pretention that it was a perfect answer.

I think that the move to having one train serve each station at the same time would probably be better, thus allowing all those lovely commuters to carry on getting to central Manchester as they do now.

The reality is a dedicated line would be best, if we have to go to city centres that is.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Thank you for taking the time to deconstruct the plan, was there ever any pretention that it was a perfect answer.

I think that the move to having one train serve each station at the same time would probably be better, thus allowing all those lovely commuters to carry on getting to central Manchester as they do now.

The reality is a dedicated line would be best, if we have to go to city centres that is.

I was only doing my "Sherlock Holmes" logic, which I try to do with full answers

It really depends whether a city centre terminal or a peripheral terminal would fit in with the strategic transport plan of the area and the political asperations of the approval grantees when the final decision is made.

In my answer to you, I quoted the SEMMS plan for the final link of the A555 to Manchester Airport from Handforth. This link has been cancelled TWICE, each time by different political bodies

 

[Nym]

And now the're building atop the SEMMS route with Metrolink.

The SEMMS route needs completing from Bredbury to Manchester Airport if nothing else, combined with the A556M and widening the M56 to D5M from Jct 5 to 6 and then D4M Jct 6 to the A556M Junction, with a lane doubling for drop at the A556(M). Ah well, that won't happen as much as the M62 ORRRR (Outer Ring Road Relieif Route)

Numbering SEMMS as M56 would also be helpful, but I don't know if there'd be enough junction numbers to make it to Bredbury and the A6(M) Junction

 

[nerd]

this is the evaluation report on the Y and reverse S configurations for Phase 2 commissioned by the DfT last October

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....peedrail/hs2ltd/networkoptions/pdf/report.pdf

Not all of this was incorporated into the DfT Feburary consultation document, but it does seem to indicate how HS2 themselves are thinking.

On the route from Lichfield into Manc, see pages 8 and 9, and especially the tabulation of line distances on page 9.

From this it is clear that HS2 are assuming:

1. that the line will go pretty directly north from Llichfield to the South of Manchester. This means passing through the hilly areas east of Stoke; rather than following the longer WCML route.

2. that there will be a high speed junction south west of Manc. This will be 59 line miles north of Llichfield, 11 line miles south west of the city centre, and 16 miles south east of Warrington. Simply looking on the map, this defines an area west of Wilmslow, east of Knutsford and south of Mobberley.

3. HS2 are envisaging that the line to the WCML classic system will be south of Warrington (i.e. trains from Scotland, Lancs and Liverpool will pass through - or stop at - Warrington Bank Quay). This is the element that is less clear on the DfT consultation document; where the maps seem to indicate the possibility of the junciton being north of Warrington and south of Wigan. But the latter link would be longer, and due to mining subsidence in south Lancs, much more expensive to build.

4. There will be a Manchester Outskirts station on the spur into Manc, (i..e not on the main line itslef), which will have links to Manchester airport and the motorway network. The obvious site for this would be Davenport Green,across the M56 from Manchester airport. This is a very large area of former green-belt land, with planning consent for a million sq feet of out-of-town office development. Just at the moment, Trafford borough are trying to have the areas green-belt status re-instated; and are being resisted in this by the owners (Royal London Asset Management). It is reasonable to assume that the owners would be extremely happy to have a majhor transport interchange proposed the site. There is also a protected alignment through the site for a Metrolink tram line into Manchester airport.

5. From Davenport Green, it is much less clear how HS2 were envisaging the line progressing into the city centre (at the time of the planning for the report, it was not clear whether there would need to be a through station or a terminal. Now we know that the Manchester station will be a terminal. It will therefore need to have at least 4 platforms.

6. The HS2 terminal will logically need to be close, either to Piccadilly or Victoria. Given the need for four platforms, considerations of space would tend to favour the area immediately north of Piccadilly (i.e. hypothetical platforms -1 to -4) as haiving the required available length, the Mayfield site simply doesn't look long enough.

7. Getting from Davenport Green into Piccadilly will be tricky. What we do know is that HS2 appear to envisage that more than half the route will be in tunnel.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In point (3), the matter of mining subsidence in the South Lancashire coalfield area has been noted. There are many reports that have been compiled over many years covering a number of individual site areas, where such details would have been released in order that land deformations and the associated costs in stability measures, coupled with known fault lines in the South Lancashire plain abstracted from standard geological papers, in order to provide a cost analysis which is stated to have major cost implications.

 

[WatcherZero]

Two developments not directly related to Manchester but to HS2.

HS2 Ltd further development of passenger modelling of Old Oak Common interchange is showing it wouldnt generate enough passengers to be worthwhile delaying trains into Euston. This means either they need to do something to make it more commercially attractive or implement through lines so not all services stop there.

Greengauge21 are campaigning for a connection to the Midland Main Line at Old Oak Common to serve Stoke/Sheffield/etc. with through trains from London saying it will enhance the economics of the station. Im not sure whether it would be that useful to have High speed trains running form Euston to Old Oak common then slowly up the MML.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Two developments not directly related to Manchester but to HS2.

HS2 Ltd further development of passenger modelling of Old Oak Common interchange is showing it wouldnt generate enough passengers to be worthwhile delaying trains into Euston. This means either they need to do something to make it more commercially attractive or implement through lines so not all services stop there.

Greengauge21 are campaigning for a connection to the Midland Main Line at Old Oak Common to serve Stoke/Sheffield/etc. with through trains from London saying it will enhance the economics of the station. Im not sure whether it would be that useful to have High speed trains running form Euston to Old Oak common then slowly up the MML.

Surely any HS2 trains would never be considered for what you quite rightly have put in your final sentance. The words "slowly up the MML" say it all, as a high-speed route should be exactly what it purports to be. (Getting to sound like that "Ronseal" advert...:roll

 

[DarloRich]

I am afraid my knowledge of Manchester is limited. However, Mayfield seems a sensible location for a station as it allows for interchanges with Piccadilly and the rail network. If the whole area is cleared you can easily fit the station in AND allow for any customs requirements for international trains. It is also central and i am sure a tram link could be put in if needed.

I also think an Airport station is a good idea, although I think the existing numbers don’t justify it. To me it is an opportunity for rail to kill off internal air. That is the same reason why an airport for Birmingham is a good idea

How you get the trains in I don’t know or if it is possible to run through trains! I think the Chilterns climb down will limit the money available for building tunnels!

 

[Geezertronic]

That is the same reason why an airport for Birmingham is a good idea

I hope that is a mistype

 

[DarloRich]

I hope that is a mistype

Yes - missed that one next to the railway line! :roll:

I meant station at Birmingham Airport of course!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

*******************************************************

Sorry, I meant to get back to you on point (7) described above, but I have been waiting for the person that I asked for geological data on the line projection you stated to come back to me, which he did last night.

The main geological problem would appear to be the rock deformation known as the Pendleton Fault. There was much coal mine tunnelling in the Manchester area done and I was told that reports on problems with ground deformation would be contained in the archives of the body in charge of such matters, which would obviously be brought into the discussions should any major tunnelling work be envisaged.

 

[swt_passenger]

Greengauge21 are campaigning for a connection to the Midland Main Line at Old Oak Common to serve Stoke/Sheffield/etc. with through trains from London saying it will enhance the economics of the station.

Have you a link for that?

All I can find in recent publications on the Greengauge 21 website is a recommendation that there is a connection between HS1 and the 'Birmingham - Derby line' - which IIRC was always on the cards anyway?