DfT advise TOCs that full timetable is to be restored on 6 July

[lyndhurst25]

I’d settle for a Saturday service, M-F, at least until September, and think this would be more robust than trying to run a full peak timetable from July.

The people of Brigg would be very happy with a Saturday service, Mondays to Fridays!

 

[yorksrob]

Office workers aren't going back - commuting is essentially dead - the survey of the local rail users group appears to indicate about 90% of its membership saying they won't be travelling for the foreseeable future - while it is true that some people want to go back to an office the reality is that they will be nervous and any coughs or sneezes will cut the atmosphere like a knife just as it did back in mid March.

I'd love to go back - for a couple of days at least - but my employer won't let us - yet anyway !

 

[infobleep]

Oh dear, another "shoot from the hip" announcement from No 10!

But the government still want long trains for full social separation.

Did the government bother to check with RDG let alone any TOC's that this was feasible with a sizeable percentage of operational staff shielding or isolating?

The only reason that so many trains on outer suburban routes are running as 8 or 12 cars is that only about 50% of trains are running. Run the full service and many trains will drop to 4 or 5 car formations. Yes there are units sat in sidings which haven't been used, but that won't make up the difference.

What is encouraging is this quote : "One insider told Rail Business UK ‘we haven’t got a waiver from health and safety law. The Health & Safety at Work Act 1974 has far more primacy than a phone call from the Prime Minister telling us to do something."

I've not seen a press release any of the railway trade unions yet, but I suspect they will support that attitude.

Perhaps a "standard hour" service would be a good starting point - a Sunday service ramping up to Saturday service as loadings increase and the travel restrictions release. Running a full SX service would really be a waste of resources.

It's all a big "IF" so long as infection rates continue to decline across the country.

This was the response from South Western Railway to tweets sent to them regarding a full timetable rerurn:

Hi Jason, due to Covid all train operating companies are running a reduced timetable that is being updated as and when to meet demand. ^RC

https://twitter.com/SW_Help/status/1272281414243954700?s=19

At this point in time, the intention is to resume the normal timetable once the Government gives the go ahead - this could change, however. ^NW

https://twitter.com/SW_Help/status/1272878226734559232?s=19

So my take is that the TOCs will attempt to being back the full timetable when either the government say so or TOCs see a demand. I can imagine it will be due to the government rather than demand and it won't be able to happen straight away as there won't be the staff.

They do need to announce it in advance though to give TOCs time to prepare and make the case as to why they don't do it as soon as ministers would like.

 

[infobleep]

I'd love to go back - for a couple of days at least - but my employer won't let us - yet anyway !

I want to go back to the office as I prefer it and actually enjoy travelling by train.

However we don't have the space to social distance at 2m, to have everyone in. Even at 1m it could be difficult when you factor in loos.

On top of this they see less in the office as a way of saving on costs.

Mutiply myself by others and it will be a fare few not travelling in. Then you get those who prefer home working.

 

[geoffk]

No mention of open access operators.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

On the Crewe to Derby route, EMR are currently operating 10 out of the 15 daily services. Which by my maths is not the 80% service often quoted. Until those gaps are filled to provide the previous hourly service a trip by train seems a distant pipedream. For example, ex Derby there is a 1442, then a gap until the 1642 and 1742. I would regard those as peak trains to be avoided to keep capacity free for key workers etc, the next departure is 1942. So I would have to ensure I returned unfeasibly early at 1442 or have a 5 hour gap until the next off-peak train at 1942.

There is a clear north / south divide where 'full timetable' in the south equates to 12 carriage trains at peak frequencies and elsewhere where an hourly service all day IS the full timetable.

 

[yorksrob]

I want to go back to the office as I prefer it and actually enjoy travelling by train.

However we don't have the space to social distance at 2m, to have everyone in. Even at 1m it could be difficult when you factor in loos.

On top of this they see less in the office as a way of saving on costs.

Mutiply myself by others and it will be a fare few not travelling in. Then you get those who prefer home working.

Yes, mine have been trying to get us to work from home for years !

 

[Silverlinky]

I want to go back to the office as I prefer it and actually enjoy travelling by train.

However we don't have the space to social distance at 2m, to have everyone in. Even at 1m it could be difficult when you factor in loos.

On top of this they see less in the office as a way of saving on costs.

Mutiply myself by others and it will be a fare few not travelling in. Then you get those who prefer home working.

Don't forget, the whole 2m thing (and soon to be 1m) is only guidance. There are enough holes in the HSE guidance for offices to be reopened should the employers make the necessary changes even if 2m/1m can't be guaranteed.

Page not found - 404 error

www.hse.gov.uk

 

[yorksrob]

On the Crewe to Derby route, EMR are currently operating 10 out of the 15 daily services. Which by my maths is not the 80% service often quoted. Until those gaps are filled to provide the previous hourly service a trip by train seems a distant pipedream. For example, ex Derby there is a 1442, then a gap until the 1642 and 1742. I would regard those as peak trains to be avoided to keep capacity free for key workers etc, the next departure is 1942. So I would have to ensure I returned unfeasibly early at 1442 or have a 5 hour gap until the next off-peak train at 1942.

There is a clear north / south divide where 'full timetable' in the south equates to 12 carriage trains at peak frequencies and elsewhere where an hourly service all day IS the full timetable.

Indeed, all the cross Pennine routes North of Leeds - Manchester are barely operating at present.

 

[Mintona]

I’m sure in the south west they are planning for a full timetable from September 13th. An increase in services from July 6th but not the full timetable from last December until mid-September.

 

[Ianno87]

No mention of open access operators.

None of the business DfT. Open Access are free to restart (or not) commercial services whenever they wish, if they think they can sustain it financially


They could come back tomorrow..
They could choose never to come back again!

 

[YorksDMU]

Hopefully we will go from one train every two hours, on the Hull to Scarborough line, to one train per hour from 6th July. And, hopefully, and I say this with caution, Northern might, just might, drop that Keyworker Only message too.

 

[Huntergreed]

Hopefully we will go from one train every two hours, on the Hull to Scarborough line, to one train per hour from 6th July. And, hopefully, and I say this with caution, Northern might, just might, drop that Keyworker Only message too.

And I hope that they might drop the 'out of use' signs on almost all of their seats as well.

 

[Starmill]

The announcement would only relate to the fourteen contracts the DfT are managing. Open Access Operators will make their own official announcements. One assumes that TfL will make any relevant announcements regarding TfL Rail and London Overground. I am not sure if there's anything to announce yet about the others.

 

[Romsey]

Unions Warn Of Increased Risks In Reducing Social Distancing On Public Transport - News

Unions Warn Of Increased Risks In Reducing Social Distancing On Public Transport

22 June 2020
In a joint statement TSSA, ASLEF and RMT have warned of the "increased risks" of reducing social distancing on public transport at the current time.
ASLEF general secretary Mick Whelan, RMT Senior Assistant General Secretary Mick Lynch and TSSA General Secretary Manuel Cortes said: “The government’s own advisors have said that reducing social distancing to one meter will significantly increase the chance of infection by up to 30 times whilst the chances of Covid –19 spreading are increased in confined spaces such as train carriages and stations.
"It is also the case that the threat of infection from the virus has not changed significantly whilst at the same time we are already seeing increases in rail and tube use which may further rise after 4th July.
"Policing two metre social distancing on public transport is already challenging and reducing it to one metre will make it almost impossible. In these circumstances diluting social distancing on public transport could increase risks so we cannot support a change to the social distancing measurement at the current time.
"We wish to see a safe and sustainable increase in public transport as soon as possible but not at the expense of worker and passenger safety.”

Who was it that said that the trade unions could be the conscience of management when they could be bothered? (Just as important that management listened...)

 

[Reliablebeam]

I've been surprised at the number of people I speak to, including purely 'office' workers, who are keen to get back into the office. A lot of people firmly dislike working from home - there are a lot of people who resent their home space becoming part of work and there is a general feeling in my workplace that Zoom and Teams do not replace the in-person interaction and are actually quite tiresome to conduct long meetings on. The WFH lovers tend to be those who really enjoy being around their kids or older workers who are quite contented doing their own thing, from what I've heard. That said, feedback from colleagues suggests a lot of people will ditch the train/bus, which is a bit of a shame given the service level is still quite high round here - understandable perhaps... The Unions might want to be careful what they wish for.....

 

[yorksrob]

Unions Warn Of Increased Risks In Reducing Social Distancing On Public Transport - News

Who was it that said that the trade unions could be the conscience of management when they could be bothered? (Just as important that management listened...)

Leaving aside the epidemiological argument about 1m versus 2m, are the trades unions planning to hold out at two meters if the rest of the country has moved to one meter ?

 

[Romsey]

Leaving aside the epidimiological argument about 1m versus 2m, are the trades unions planning to hold out at two meters if the rest of the country has moved to one meter ?

I doubt they will try anything like holding out for 2 metre social distancing on the railways. The union speak interprets more that "we're not certain it's the right thing at the moment." Placing such a comment on record is political insurance, so if it all goes t*ts up (heaven forbid) they can say we told you so.

Like many individuals and organisations, they would much prefer clear policies from government with an explanation of the decision making process.

 

[Bald Rick]

This is all very old news, save for the unions press release today. The RG article is well over 2 weeks old!

 

[westv]

They may be working to that but depends on the level on compulsion - ours with a not immaterial workforce says that any return to the office will be gradual and even then on a voluntary basis.

Same for us.

 

[yorksrob]

I doubt they will try anything like holding out for 2 metre social distancing on the railways. The union speak interprets more that "we're not certain it's the right thing at the moment." Placing such a comment on record is political insurance, so if it all goes t*ts up (heaven forbid) they can say we told you so.

Like many individuals and organisations, they would much prefer clear policies from government with an explanation of the decision making process.

Well, I suppose it marks a softening of position of sorts.

 

[yorkie]

At my workplace we have a sensible policy which means that people are doing a combination of working from home and being in the office. I am very happy with my arrangements.

I doubt they will try anything like holding out for 2 metre social distancing on the railways...

There's going to be an announcement on that tomorrow, but my prediction is in the following thread:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...ic-transport-thus-increasing-capacity.205564/

I've been surprised at the number of people I speak to, including purely 'office' workers, who are keen to get back into the office. A lot of people firmly dislike working from home ....

If you've not already seen them, you may find these threads interesting:

Coronavirus and working from home

I just wonder if the UK home IT infrastructure is currently sufficient to cope with a large increase in traffic that would be likely to result from a WFH policy? For the actual work? Almost certainly. Emails and instant messengers etc use tiny amounts of data. The increase in things like video...

www.railforums.co.uk

Remote working preferences (in the longer term)

This is question for people who do jobs that can, at least in part, be done by working from home. Obviously this question doesn't apply to everyone as there are many jobs that cannot be done from home. When this situation is over, what would your preferred working be? Working from home all...

www.railforums.co.uk

(Especially the latter, which has a poll, the results of which surprised me!)

If anyone wishes to contribute to those threads, they are still open!

 

[philosopher]

I want to go back to the office as I prefer it and actually enjoy travelling by train.

However we don't have the space to social distance at 2m, to have everyone in. Even at 1m it could be difficult when you factor in loos.

On top of this they see less in the office as a way of saving on costs.

Mutiply myself by others and it will be a fare few not travelling in. Then you get those who prefer home working.

1 metre social distancing probably only allows a quarter of the seats to be occupied plus maybe two standing passengers by each set of doors. Even with a full timetable, in the peaks this will only a small fraction of the usual passengers.

If social distancing is rigorously enforced, those office workers who rely on trains to get to work will likely have to continue working from home, particularly if they work in large city centres. The limited space on trains would in this case have to be reserved for those who can't work from home. Until social distancing goes, I can only see those who drive, walk or cycle to work being able to work in their office.

 

[yorkie]

....I can only see those who drive, walk or cycle to work being able to work in their office.

Not gonna happen.

But this thread isn't really to discuss social distancing on trains; we have loads of other threads for that, and an announcement is imminent!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

1 metre social distancing probably only allows a quarter of the seats to be occupied plus maybe two standing passengers by each set of doors. Even with a full timetable, in the peaks this will only a small fraction of the usual passengers.

If social distancing is rigorously enforced, those office workers who rely on trains to get to work will likely have to continue working from home, particularly if they work in large city centres. The limited space on trains would in this case have to be reserved for those who can't work from home. Until social distancing goes, I can only see those who drive, walk or cycle to work being able to work in their office.

Simple solution, don't rigourously enforce social distancing. Simply have signs on the train saying "please try to stay 1 metre apart WHERE POSSIBLE" and accept that there will be some situations, such as travelling on a peak time train, where it may not be possible.

 

[43066]

At my workplace we have a sensible policy which means that people are doing a combination of working from home and being in the office. I am very happy with my arrangements.

That is sensible, and isn’t so very different to what happens in many workplaces in normal times, these days. Most people I know who work from home tend to do so one or two days per week. They also work flexibly, perhaps going in mid morning, heading home early and logging on again from home.

Commuting has moved away from the traditional AM and PM peaks over the last few years, with much increased demand off peak. No doubt this pandemic will accelerate that shift. That may be a good thing if it reduces overcrowding in the rush hours and smooths demand out throughout the day. TOCs might need to adapt by running more/longer trains for more of the day and slightly fewer during the traditional peaks.

The railway really, really does need to stop scaring its passengers away, though .

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I’d settle for a Saturday service, M-F, at least until September, and think this would be more robust than trying to run a full peak timetable from July.

The advantage of that is it should allow extra time for engineering works too.

 

[Ianno87]

Simple solution, don't rigourously enforce social distancing. Simply have signs on the train saying "please try to stay 1 metre apart WHERE POSSIBLE" and accept that there will be some situations, such as travelling on a peak time train, where it may not be possible.

I agree! But very few British people seem to understand the concept of pragmatism, I'm afraid!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Office workers aren't going back - commuting is essentially dead - the survey of the local rail users group appears to indicate about 90% of its membership saying they won't be travelling for the foreseeable future - while it is true that some people want to go back to an office the reality is that they will be nervous and any coughs or sneezes will cut the atmosphere like a knife just as it did back in mid March.

This is as I suspected, which means you don't need a full service - a Saturday service (which on most lines is a weekday service minus any peak mucking around) would be fine. If a few trains get too busy, just run them longer.

No mention of open access operators.

Because, being private businesses, it's up to them if and when they return.

 

[MikeWM]

Until social distancing goes, I can only see those who drive, walk or cycle to work being able to work in their office.

My company have said they'll be taking method of transport into account when determining what order to ask people back to the office (among various other factors). For now, relying on public transport may knock you down the list. Though they are 'listening to government advice' - I'm not sure they're going to care about exact capacities of trains once that advice becomes more nuanced than currently!