DfT and TOCs to trial radical fares overhaul

[LNW-GW Joint]

I was under the impression that Cross Country trains put prices up to get a greater revenue, which is why passengers split ticketed. Is that not the case and could they not lower than long distance point to point fares to match the split ticketing? Or does regulation disallow the lowering of fares.

XC didn't so much as put the fares up as enforced an 0930 time restriction on all their off-peak tickets (both ways).
The splitting that goes on is largely to get past this restriction (eg on Plymouth-Edinburgh starting before 0930).
They are not the only TOC to do the same thing.
XC also price a lot of fares even if you use other TOCs.

They did put up their (unregulated) first class fares from a typical premium of 50% to one of 100%.
This put the fares out of kilter with other TOC's fares on the same routes, and is why they had some £1000+ fares.

 

[All Line Rover]

The typical first class premium on XC is between 120% and 160% (i.e. getting close to triple the price of standard class - e g. Stafford to Manchester).

In other words, a rip-off.

For most other long distance TOCs the typical premium hovers around 70%, with a range between about 60% and 80%.

 

[embers25]

Those RDG quotes hint as much at worsening the situation as enhancing it.
If XC removes its long distance through fares, users will pay more for the replacement combination.
If "historic" roundabout routes are removed, the routeing choices will diminish, with fewer Any Permitted routes and more TOC-specific ones.
And then the benefit of single leg pricing all depends on whether they choose to halve the SVR or double the SVS.
I wonder if the Glasgow/Edinburgh test is simply Virgin making its "half-saver" generally available rather than only in combination with a return fare (and only on line).

Well summed up. Basically this is almost certainly going to mean less routeing choices and higher fares. It certainly will not be good news for the consumer and the lady of BBC Breakfast this morning was utterly clueless when she said it was unfair some that bothered to search got cheaper fares. Thats how the open market works. It's the same in shops and on planes etc. If you serach you can find a bargain but if you don't you won't and to say its better that we all just pay the higher fare (which was her basic implication) is frankly absurd but exactly what XC will want. I'm also definitely not a fan of regulated fares being the singles as currently regulating returns stops singles from going too high (capped at 5p less than the return) but if the regulation switched to the singles in just a few years we'll be paying single what we are currently paying for return on even regulated fares. this whole trial reminds me of the complete lies SWT told before introducing Super Off peak weekend restrictions and look how those "savings" and "benefits" to passengers have turned out! Also I love this replacement for the current Simpler Fares is called "Simple Fares"?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There were people being interviewed today who complained that it was unacceptable for a 40% discount to be available online when it wasn't at the station.
That's because of the Trainline advert which essentially says their fares are "up to 40% cheaper" when in fact they just mean the off-peak fare which is equally available at stations.
No wonder people are confused and/or annoyed.

 

[Joe Paxton]

There were people being interviewed today who complained that it was unacceptable for a 40% discount to be available online when it wasn't at the station.
That's because of the Trainline advert which essentially says their fares are "up to 40% cheaper" when in fact they just mean the off-peak fare which is equally available at stations.
No wonder people are confused and/or annoyed.

That's not the basis of The Trainline's claim.

From the horse's mouth...

How did we calculate the 43% savings message?

We compared prices paid for Advance fare tickets with Trainline (including the booking fee) with the cheapest ticket available for the same journey on the day.

The average saving made by customers buying Advance fares with Trainline was 43%.

Advance fares are subject to availability and are not available on every route, but they are available on the vast majority of our most popular routes.

Savings are available on Advance fares only, but Trainline makes it easy to find cheaper tickets and make savings; the cheapest available ticket for a journey is highlighted in orange and we have some handy tools to make finding cheap tickets quicker and easier - click here to find out more.

The claim - and hence the comparison work behind it - dates back quite a few years. I suspect the savings calculation doesn't take account of their booking fee (and their various fees have changed over the years).

 

[Agent_c]

Not sure if anyone else has posted the exact detail:

http://www.raildeliverygroup.com/media-centre/press-releasnes/2017/469771790-2017-02-01.html

A route will be overhauled to reflect what is actually on offer, ending the existing situation where changes to train services in many cases only allow fares to be added to the system rather than older, less relevant routes which customers do not use being removed from the fares system to make it clearer;

A best value end-to-end ‘through fare’ will be offered for test journeys where customers change trains, by offering one price combining the cheapest fare for each leg of the journey. Current rules require operators to set and maintain a through price even where there are cheaper deals;

Easier journey planning by showing customers the best price in each direction on selected routes, allowing customers to mix and match the best fare – like airline bookings.

Here's the catch...

The trials focus on three typical examples of the need to modernise rail fares regulations, where they create confusion and show too many different fares:

Routeing changes will be tested between London and Sheffield where regulations date back to when the direct service was much less frequent and journeys often needed a change of train via a longer route. This means that tickets are required to be available which are not in step with actual options available now.

Best-price through fares will be tested with CrossCountry Trains who are obliged currently by regulations to price through tickets for very long connecting journeys even where customers can beat that price by combining different types of ticket (so-called ‘split ticketing’). Train companies want to remove these expensive, obsolete through fares which in many cases nobody buys but are required by regulations which pre-date the internet and online booking.

Single-leg pricing will be tested on the London-Glasgow and London-Edinburgh routes so that customers would always know the cheapest fare for their chosen journey, out and back. Despite train companies making online booking easier, finding the best price both ways is made harder because the regulated off-peak fare is a return fare, therefore customers are often left to calculate whether two single tickets are cheaper than a return.

 

[Gareth Marston]

That's not the basis of The Trainline's claim.

From the horse's mouth...




The claim - and hence the comparison work behind it - dates back quite a few years. I suspect the savings calculation doesn't take account of their booking fee (and their various fees have changed over the years).

People buy off Trainline because they believe it will saves them money after all everything on the Internet is cheaper isn't it? The amount of people who buy TOD off peak and anytime fares plus booking fees has to be seen to be believed.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

That's not the basis of The Trainline's claim.
The claim - and hence the comparison work behind it - dates back quite a few years. I suspect the savings calculation doesn't take account of their booking fee (and their various fees have changed over the years).

That may well be true, but the saving is equally valid if you do it at the station the day before.
ie Trainline fares are no cheaper than elsewhere (booked at the same time).

 

[Joe Paxton]

That may well be true, but the saving is equally valid if you do it at the station the day before.
ie Trainline fares are no cheaper than elsewhere (booked at the same time).

I didn't say they were! Just pointing out that their 43% savings claim has some factual basis (and is different from what you suggested the explanation was in an earlier post). That they omit to mention the same savings can be obtained elsewhere can be explained by it being advertising!

 

[AnkleBoots]

Routeing changes will be tested between London and Sheffield where regulations date back to when the direct service was much less frequent and journeys often needed a change of train via a longer route. This means that tickets are required to be available which are not in step with actual options available now.

Super Off Peak Returns are as follows:

• Euston via Tamworth, £45, from 2h31

• St Pancras via Chesterfield, £75.50, from 2h01

• Kings Cross via Doncaster, £77 (Hull Trains), from 2h21

• Any route, £90, from 2h01

So what's wrong - what are they suggesting needs to be fixed here?

 

[Gareth Marston]

I didn't say they were! Just pointing out that their 43% savings claim has some factual basis (and is different from what you suggested the explanation was in an earlier post). That they omit to mention the same savings can be obtained elsewhere can be explained by it being advertising!

Nothing about quotas and they can and do sell out nor that two AP's can be more expensive than an anytime or off peak return. Nor that for most journeys AP does not exist. Joe public is utterly convinced that you always save by booking ahead they buy off peak and anytimes in advance in their droves willingly handing over extra £ because they perceive there saving. Then let Joe public choose there ticket type off peak or peak? Better buy anytime to be safe even when the off peak is valid for their journey.......

 

[Joe Paxton]

Nothing about quotas and they can and do sell out nor that two AP's can be more expensive than an anytime or off peak return. Nor that for most journeys AP does not exist. Joe public is utterly convinced that you always save by booking ahead they buy off peak and anytimes in advance in their droves willingly handing over extra £ because they perceive there saving. Then let Joe public choose there ticket type off peak or peak? Better buy anytime to be safe even when the off peak is valid for their journey.......

Re quotas on Advance tickets, it does get a mention of sorts on their home page...

Cheap train tickets - buy in advance and save 43%*

* Average savings on Advance fares vs. purchase on the day. Selected routes only. Subject to availability.

Their claims are all quite carefully worded!

I agree with your points, I'm no fan of The Trainline. They've just battered their message home to people with their all pervasive advertising, which has obviously been fairly successful.

 

[roversfan2001]

I enjoyed the comparison on the BBC where they compared an on the day fare to an Advance to demonstrate split ticketing. Slight problem there in the sense that that involved no splits ??????

 

[Gareth Marston]

Re quotas on Advance tickets, it does get a mention of sorts on their home page...



Their claims are all quite carefully worded!

I agree with your points, I'm no fan of The Trainline. They've just battered their message home to people with their all pervasive advertising, which has obviously been fairly successful.

"You can save if you buy ahead" read carefully its not you will save....

Trainline also take advantage of perceived wisdom about things on the internet always being cheaper. I read an article in one of the general business intelligence magazines bemoaning the fact that "only 20% of rail ticket sales were done on the internet. Given that 45% are seasons and only 3-4% aof total sale are advance which are not all sold on the internet around a third of all off peak/anytime tickets sales must be done on the internet.

 

[superkev]

Perhaps it would be a good idea for some university's to introduce a degree course on how to buy the right ticket the complexity of which is, apart from today's cramped seating, the main reason I prefer my car.
I believe some countries charge a base price of so much a mile with suppliments for popular trains depending on demand. i.e. a low price with supplements as opposed to our high price with discounts.
K

 

[sheff1]

If the fares database contained a set of fares between, say, about 25 key points ...... then anything else was a local add-on, it would be a whole lot easier to maintain.

That is exactly the system which was in operation (although with far more than 25 'key points') 40 odd years ago .

 

[AnkleBoots]

Megan French, Consumer Expert, talking about this route right now on BBC News, and also London to Durham.

Pretty sure that the only possible outcome of all this is prices going up?!

 

[greatkingrat]

Presumably they are proposing that the route via Doncaster will no longer be permitted so there will just be an Any Permitted fare valid via Chesterfield.

 

[Joe Paxton]

"You can save if you buy ahead" read carefully its not you will save....

Exactly! I think we're in agreement on this one.

 

[AnkleBoots]

Crosscountry routes are the ones which come up most often when people talk about splitting.

But for the above route, due to the Tamworth ticket, Crosscountry come out looking very good!

 

[30907]

Presumably they are proposing that the route via Doncaster will no longer be permitted so there will just be an Any Permitted fare valid via Chesterfield.

It is odd that EC set the basic Sheffield fare, presumably the effect of its being the fastest route in the early 90s.

However, I don't see how the Hull Trains and TPE fare can be forbidden. Have I missed something?

 

[Hadders]

Pretty sure that the only possible outcome of all this is prices going up?!

I agree. We need to be very wary. The DfT/RDG cannot be trusted.

 

[AnkleBoots]

It is odd that EC set the basic Sheffield fare, presumably the effect of its being the fastest route in the early 90s.

However, I don't see how the Hull Trains and TPE fare can be forbidden. Have I missed something?

It seems to me like a good example of competition on the railways.

£45 ticket: infrequent, lower level of comfort, slower (yet still quicker than coach), indirect, seats non-reservable, very restrictive times.
£75.50 ticket: frequency good, comfort good, catering OK, direct, seats reservable.
£90 ticket: more frequent, more comfortable, catering better, indirect, seats reservable.

 

[infobleep]

Re quotas on Advance tickets, it does get a mention of sorts on their home page...



Their claims are all quite carefully worded!

I agree with your points, I'm no fan of The Trainline. They've just battered their message home to people with their all pervasive advertising, which has obviously been fairly successful.

I wonder what routes they selected, given it states selected routes only.

 

[jayah]

I've strolled down to Tesco and read The Times article.

So far as split ticketing goes, it is not split ticketing as we know it Jim.

It would appear that, if your journey involves a connection, and the fares for those two legs are cheaper than the through fare, you will be offered that cheaper fare. So, Manchester to Plymouth direct - through fare paid. Manchester to Plymouth with a change at Birmingham - check the through fare and the Manchester to Birmingham plus Birmingham to Plymouth fares and offer whichever is cheapest. It does not imply that splits at Cheltenham, Exeter and Totnes (or whatever is cheapest at the moment) where the trains call but you are not making a connection, will be considered and offered.

Another over-promotion and under-delivery by the RDG!

National Rail has done this for years! If the London TOC priced Advance fares to the changing location but not beyond, changing off the London route, sometimes even one stop, train ramps up the price to Off / Super Off Peak especially if you are changing TOC as well as train and London Advances are routed only for TOC x.

National Rail will staple together Advance to the changing point and Off Peak Day or whatever for the remaining bit. Or it will join up separate fares using the changing points to create new routings that don't exist at all and wouldn't be offered by other websites even when they are the fastest.

What makes this even more bizarre is of course Plymouth - Manchester can have quite a number of different changing points depending what website you are asking, even using the same pair of trains!

There are probably lots of smaller / better things they could have done a better attempt at actually fixing, like sorting out a proper and fair national policy for missed trains, lost tickets / railcards left at home, buy on board when the queues are out of the station, alter, change & upgrade Advance, drive to a different station and valid ticket routing during planned engineering works which are all pretty serious pain points and where current practice does not fly in the court of public opinion.

 

[infobleep]

Guildford to London Zone 5 season tickets are route restricted with multiple tickets available for different routes.

Godalming to London Zone 5 season ticket is more expensive but isn't route restricted, so more routes available if living in Guildford, the increase in price would be worth it for the additional routes available.

How would they deal with things like this?

 

[miami]

Fully expect the following for long distance

1) increase in off peak return prices
2) slashing of routes
3) removal of break of journey
4) removal of 30 day validities

 

[Starmill]

It seems to me like a good example of competition on the railways.

£45 ticket: infrequent, lower level of comfort, slower (yet still quicker than coach), indirect, seats non-reservable, very restrictive times.
£75.50 ticket: frequency good, comfort good, catering OK, direct, seats reservable.
£90 ticket: more frequent, more comfortable, catering better, indirect, seats reservable.

More frequent is exceptionally dubious:

London (Kings Cross or St Pancras) to Sheffield:

2h 1m 0958 - 1159 direct
2h 16m 1003 - 1219 changing at Doncaster
2h 15m 1026 - 1241 direct
2h 1m 1058 - 1259 direct
2h 14m 1105 - 1319 changing at Doncaster
2h 15m 1126 - 1341 direct
2h 4m 1158 - 1402 direct
2h 17m 1203 - 1420 changing at Doncaster
2h 15m 1226 - 1441 direct
2h 1m 1258 - 1459 direct

and so on.

Feel free to enlighten me on the other direction, but the standard off-peak weekday timetable has the journey oppourtunity from Kings Cross at betweem 5 to 7 minutes behind the 2 hour 1 minute direct departure. How many people are going to find that useful? Almost none. There then there is the a gap of 32 minutes after the xx26 with no journey oppourtunities, which come to think of it is relatively poor for such an IC route. And there are two direct journey oppourtunities anyway to 1 changing at Doncaster, so when is it more frequent?

Your point about comfort is also incredibly subjective, given there is a strong likelihood of travelling on Northern between Sheffield and Doncaster, who as yet have no intercity standard rolling stock and you may even be on a pacer.

 

[pne]

DB by comparison have a system very similar to ours but it misses out of the off-peak walk-up step - they just have "Anytimes" (Normalpreis) and "Advances" (Sparpreis).

The "Anytime" equivalent is now called "Flexpreis", and is moving to an odd model where some times are more expensive than others on some routes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The "Anytime" equivalent is now called "Flexpreis", and is moving to an odd model where some times are more expensive than others on some routes.

Do you have a reference to that?

Edit: did some Googling, it sounds like they have abolished returns completely, and the flexible ticket is priced differently on day of the week, not time - a bit like SuperSavers weren't available Friday or Summer Saturday. Not an utterly terrible idea, and won't create anomalies[1] in and of itself.

[1] It does actually create the odd one because of how they have done it - it's valid two days but you must start your journey on day one - a bit like our Off Peak Single tickets where overnight BoJ is not prohibited. You could of course buy back one stop, "start your journey" and then do most of it on day two...