DfT ticketing news

[swt_passenger]

Buried in one of yesterday's DfT announcements (cos the statement heading doesn't really suggest rail ticketing at all):

Examples include the £70 million ITSO on Prestige (IoP) project that has upgraded London’s Oyster system to also accept ITSO smart ticketing and bank issued contactless payment cards. This is now bearing fruit; Southern Railway launched smart card ticketing into London in December 2013 and will be followed by c2c and South West Trains later this year.

The department has reached agreement with TfL and the train operators who currently accept Oyster to allow passengers to use their contactless payment cards as an alternative later this year.

https://www.gov.uk/government/speec...15-million-funding-for-cycle-rail-integration

So although they don't use the terminology that sounds like progress with SEFT - and unusually SWT are going to be one of the second tranche of ITSO into London. (It does seem odd that SN's 'the key' can already be used at Waterloo)

 

[Qwerty133]

C2C have been advertising this on twitter for weeks.

 

[swt_passenger]

C2C have been advertising this on twitter for weeks.

But SWT haven't. And I also think that 'contactless payment on all Oyster routes' is definitely new news, I think in a recent discussion there was some doubt as to whether the TOCs would come into contactless at the same time as TfL - which of course would have been a bit of a nightmare...

 

[MikeWh]

But SWT haven't. And I also think that 'contactless payment on all Oyster routes' is definitely new news, I think in a recent discussion there was some doubt as to whether the TOCs would come into contactless at the same time as TfL - which of course would have been a bit of a nightmare...

I've been taking part in TfL's contactless pilot and it was clear that it involved all Oyster rail routes. I'm not sure it would have been technically possible to exclude the NR routes as all the functionality is being run by TfL alongside their Oyster system.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've been taking part in TfL's contactless pilot and it was clear that it involved all Oyster rail routes. I'm not sure it would have been technically possible to exclude the NR routes as all the functionality is being run by TfL alongside their Oyster system.

Fair enough. Perhaps I'm just getting too used to the TOCs dragging their heels on anything new.

BTW, does anyone know how revenue protection staff will deal with checking someone who is using their debit/credit card for travel purposes?

 

[Simon11]

They will get given a RID (Retail inspection device), which have been brought and issued by TfL to TOC's.

 

[swt_passenger]

They will get given a RID (Retail inspection device), which have been brought and issued by TfL to TOC's.

Any chance you might explain what a RID can do then?

 

[Simon11]

Just like an Oyster Card reader. Tap it on the RID and it informs the member of staff if they have tapped in for their journey.

 

[Muzer]

SWT have had a smartcard system for years but barely advertise its existence. Only Waterloo guards have the equipment necessary to read the cards, last time I checked at least. I wouldn't be surprised if this arrangement continues.

 

[MikeWh]

Just like an Oyster Card reader. Tap it on the RID and it informs the member of staff if they have tapped in for their journey.

Surely it can only inform if they have tapped in that day. Where touching is not at gates the system cannot confirm what sort of touch it is. The card has no concept of what you are doing, it's all worked out by the back-end systems at the end of the day. Does the RID record the cards it's examined and where/when? If not then I can see wholesale abuse of this system.

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely it can only inform if they have tapped in that day. Where touching is not at gates the system cannot confirm what sort of touch it is. The card has no concept of what you are doing, it's all worked out by the back-end systems at the end of the day. Does the RID record the cards it's examined and where/when? If not then I can see wholesale abuse of this system.

That's what I'm wondering. There is mention of adding a 'transit' data section to EMV cards in the future, but currently they hold no information of use to such a checking device.

Perhaps the RID just reads the card's account number and then goes online to the back office system to see if that card is currently 'IN or OUT' of the system?

 

[mattdickinson]

According to a poster on the Bus forum

A new Oyster checking device (known as the RID or Revenue Inspection Device) is being introduced which can read Contactless Credit/Debit cards. As far as the railways go (not sure about buses as I work on an automatic railway that's being taken over by another company later this year), a contactless card inspected with a RID device will only show "Card Inspected"- this information is then sent to TfL via 3G which then checks whether the card is valid or not (i.e whether the customer touched their contactless card on a reader at the start of their journey.) If the customer has not touched their card on a reader, they have failed the inspection and are charged £7.80. Like I say, this is more to do with railways so not sure exactly how it works with buses.

 

[Deerfold]

According to a poster on the Bus forum

If that's right it'll be cheaper than a penalty fare...

 

[swt_passenger]

If that's right it'll be cheaper than a penalty fare...

Sounds an unlikely scenario - "if we catch you without touching in, we'll just charge the maximum cash fare"?

Or perhaps they've just mixed up what happens if you touch out at a barrier without having touched in, as it works with Oyster...

 

[Stats]

According to TfL

By touching in and out on the yellow card reader, you'll be authorising the cost of a single journey to be taken from your contactless payment card account.

If you don't touch in and out, we won't know where you've travelled, so won't be able to calculate the right fare for you. We call this an incomplete journey

If you make an incomplete journey, you could be charged a maximum fare (up to £8.60), face a Penalty fare of £80, or be prosecuted.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In the government statement it said

Southern Railway launched smart card ticketing into London in December 2013

Not to split hairs but it was October 2013 actually .

 

[Simon11]

Sounds an unlikely scenario - "if we catch you without touching in, we'll just charge the maximum cash fare"?

Or perhaps they've just mixed up what happens if you touch out at a barrier without having touched in, as it works with Oyster...

What you guys have forgotten is that all this information will be stored, ready for the revenue protection team to analyse. It will be easy to identify people who are constantly paying the maximum cash fare. With details of the customer and timing/locations, there isn't much hanging around require waiting to catch the offender.

 

[Deerfold]

What you guys have forgotten is that all this information will be stored, ready for the revenue protection team to analyse. It will be easy to identify people who are constantly paying the maximum cash fare. With details of the customer and timing/locations, there isn't much hanging around require waiting to catch the offender.

I don't think we've forgotten that at all. It's quite easy at the moment to identify Oyster users who are paying lots of maximum fares but they're still liable to a penalty fare for not touching in.

 

[swt_passenger]

What you guys have forgotten is that all this information will be stored, ready for the revenue protection team to analyse. It will be easy to identify people who are constantly paying the maximum cash fare. With details of the customer and timing/locations, there isn't much hanging around require waiting to catch the offender.

What I was highlighting was that if an onboard revenue check was only going to result in a £7.80 charge, this would be a waste of time, but as you say, a recordable history would develop anyway.

But you haven't really explained how the RID checks a contactless card, just that it can. Is that because it hasn't been explained to you (in detail) in your training?

 

[Pumbaa]

If that's right it'll be cheaper than a penalty fare...

Sounds an unlikely scenario - "if we catch you without touching in, we'll just charge the maximum cash fare"?

Or perhaps they've just mixed up what happens if you touch out at a barrier without having touched in, as it works with Oyster...

You're right - it is cheaper than a penalty fare.

To the best of my knowledge, TOCs don't want this, but are grudgingly accepting it in return for TfL funding IoP, in the hope that once that comes along, nobody will bother with contactless after all.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a right cluster**** of a mechanism - clunky, backwards and overall a retrograde step for the TOCs. SEFT/IoP on the other hand will *hopefully* be a really good product
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But you haven't really explained how the RID checks a contactless card, just that it can. Is that because it hasn't been explained to you (in detail) in your training?

The RID can't *read* a contactless card, it can only tell you if it's been touched in. In that sense, they're a retrograde step from the Handys for Oyster. If it has been touched in, all is good. If it hasn't, as Simon11 has already detailed, it will ping the database and the card will be charged.

 

[island]

To use a technical term, this whole process is being done arseways.

 

[Deerfold]

You're right - it is cheaper than a penalty fare.

To the best of my knowledge, TOCs don't want this, but are grudgingly accepting it in return for TfL funding IoP, in the hope that once that comes along, nobody will bother with contactless after all.

As far as I'm concerned, it's a right cluster**** of a mechanism - clunky, backwards and overall a retrograde step for the TOCs. SEFT/IoP on the other hand will *hopefully* be a really good product

So anyone who's deliberately not paid and is clued-up just needs to keep a contactless card on them and present this (and express suprise that their "touch-in" didn't work) and avoid penalty fares?

 

[Mojo]

So anyone who's deliberately not paid and is clued-up just needs to keep a contactless card on them and present this (and express suprise that their "touch-in" didn't work) and avoid penalty fares?

I'm not saying anything, but I'm sure you can draw your own conclusion from my post, and the others above. The RID (Revenue Inspection Device) will simply store details of the card inspected, and if during the "overnight" processing it is found that the card was not touched in then the customer will be billed the maximum fare to their bank account. There will also be a list of hotlisted cards and if one of these is presented then the Revenue Inspector can do whatever he feels appropriate.

Bear in mind however that the majority of London Underground's Revenue Control activity takes place at gated stations rather than on trains, where it is easier to detect and deal with [attempted] fraudulent travel.

 

[greatkingrat]

I'm curious what the legal basis would be for TfL taking a maximum fare directly from a customers bank account without their prior agreement, which could potentially make someone overdrawn. I suspect it may be against the card issuers guidelines as well.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm curious what the legal basis would be for TfL taking a maximum fare directly from a customers bank account without their prior agreement, which could potentially make someone overdrawn. I suspect it may be against the card issuers guidelines as well.

I've a feeling if they complained and had it refunded they'd be liable for prosecution for travelling without paying.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm curious what the legal basis would be for TfL taking a maximum fare directly from a customers bank account without their prior agreement

I'm not certain, but I'd have thought you can agree to it when you touch your debit/credit card on the RID.

If you don't want to agree to touching the RID, then I'm sure TfL or the TOC will be more than happy to prosecute you for fare evasion.

 

[island]

I've a feeling if they complained and had it refunded they'd be liable for prosecution for travelling without paying.

This in theory. In practice if they complained to their bank the bank would pay it back out of a sundry account because it's not worth the faff of dealing with tiny chargebacks for seven quid odd, and TfL and its subsidiaries would never know. Even if for some reason a bank did raise a chargeback, TfL and its subsidiaries would have no way of finding the customer in question. The most they could do is hotlist the card so that it would not work on gates, and make the inspection gadgets flag that it's a hotlisted card.