Diesel Under the Wires

[Arglwydd Golau]

I'm sure that this has come up before on the forum, but I can't find anything...but does anyone know - roughly - the percentage of diesel services that run on the WCML (and ECML if you can)?
I'm only asking this as a recent trip from Crewe to Glasgow and return from Edinburgh were both Voyagers rather than the Pendolino that I was expecting.

 

[najaB]

I'm sure that this has come up before on the forum, but I can't find anything...but does anyone know - roughly - the percentage of diesel services that run on the WCML (and ECML if you can)?

That will be a difficult question to answer as there are many services that run on the ECML/WCML for part of their route but on non-electrified routes at one or either end - where do you draw the line?

 

[TRAX]

Including freight ?

 

[Kite159]

I guess you mean Diesels which run their entire journey under the wires (such as the Euston - Birmingham/Scotland Voyagers, and Kings Cross - Newark/York HSTs)?

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

That will be a difficult question to answer as there are many services that run on the ECML/WCML for part of their route but on non-electrified routes at one or either end - where do you draw the line?

Yes, I appreciate that it might be difficult to answer, so I did hesitate before posing the question! I did think though, that there might be some method of finding out with all the info available now...and yes, freight also. From what I see on the WCML, most freight is diesel hauled,

 

[najaB]

...Kings Cross - Newark/York HSTs...

Not to mention the Kings Cross to Edinburgh one(s).

 

[Kite159]

Not to mention the Kings Cross to Edinburgh one(s).

And I think there is a Kings Cross - Leeds - Kings Cross HST on a Saturday (but which then will form a service to Lincoln/Harrogate/Hull (etc) so are needed to be a HST)

 

[PHILIPE]

On the WCML Voyagers from Euston which go to Chester/Holyhead, Shrewsbury & Blackpool. ECML HSTS run from KingsCross to Leeds, Newcastle, Aberdeen & Inverness.

 

[najaB]

XC Voyagers between Glasgow/Edinburgh/Newcastle and York.

 

[roversfan2001]

This might take the mick a bit as it's a very small section,in a scenario that probably exists in a lot of other places; Preston to Euxton Jn on the WCML has a fair few Northern DMUs running under the wires there.

 

[Kite159]

Some TPE 185s on Manchester Airport - Scotland services due to not having enough 350s

 

[PHILIPE]

Plenty of diesels running all day under the wires in the Birmingham area.

 

[lejog]

This might take the mick a bit as it's a very small section,in a scenario that probably exists in a lot of other places; Preston to Euxton Jn on the WCML has a fair few Northern DMUs running under the wires there.

And surely going North from Preston to Lancaster then Carnforth and Oxenholme, some loco-hauled as well as DMUs.

 

[roversfan2001]

And surely going North from Preston to Lancaster then Carnforth and Oxenholme, some loco-hauled as well as DMUs.

Fair enough, didn't think about the Northern services up that way.

 

[tsangpogorge]

Is the Grayrigg derailment and subsequent right off of a Pendolino unit the reason why London to Scotland via Birmingham services are run by Voyagers?

 

[PHILIPE]

Is the Grayrigg derailment and subsequent right off of a Pendolino unit the reason why London to Scotland via Birmingham services are run by Voyagers?

Don't quite understand what your'e trying to say. In any case, Pendolinos do work Euston to Scotland via Birmingham

 

[43096]

Is the Grayrigg derailment and subsequent right off of a Pendolino unit the reason why London to Scotland via Birmingham services are run by Voyagers?

No. The order for additional 390s (154-157) included an extra set as a replacement.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Is the Grayrigg derailment and subsequent right off of a Pendolino unit the reason why London to Scotland via Birmingham services are run by Voyagers?

No, nothing to do with it.
Voyagers were bought for XC services when they worked from South Coast/South West to Scotland via Preston.
When XC was reshaped in 2007 these services were split at Birmingham and Birmingham-Scotland was transferred to Virgin West Coast.
More recently, these services were run through to London, with Pendolinos also working on the route.
The written-off Pendolino was replaced in the upgrade order in 2012 which delivered 4 new 11-car Pendolinos and lengthened 31 others from 9 to 11 car.
The additional Pendolinos were also used to extend some London-Preston/Lancaster services to Glasgow, to give a full hourly service.

 

[northwichcat]

No, nothing to do with it.
Voyagers were bought for XC services when they worked from South Coast/South West to Scotland via Preston.
When XC was reshaped in 2007 these services were split at Birmingham and Birmingham-Scotland was transferred to Virgin West Coast.

Prior to that there was an hourly Manchester to Birmingham only service which was Voyager operated. It was reported Virgin were offered 350s for that service but rejected them because they aren't 'quality Intercity trains.'

 

[Envoy]

Yes, and it is very annoying that Voyagers run under wires for entire end to end trips on the WCML given that diesels are desperately needed elsewhere on the network. For example, Cardiff> Gloucester > Birmingham > Derby > Nottingham is operated by XC with 3 or even 2 car Turbostars (170’s) which are clearly inadequate for linking these major centres of population.

The situation with ATW now appears to be quite desperate regarding the shortage of rolling stock v demand. Bad enough having 2 coach Coradias (175’s) on some of the Manchester to SW Wales services but sometimes even 150’s may be used.

 

[paul1609]

I'm still of the opinion that Train operators should be penalised for operating Diesel Engines in the London Low Emissions Zone where the main line terminus is electrified.
Diesel hauled trains should be terminated outside the M25 or the passengers and operators should be heavily penalised for through trains.

 

[PHILIPE]

I'm still of the opinion that Train operators should be penalised for operating Diesel Engines in the London Low Emissions Zone where the main line terminus is electrified.
Diesel hauled trains should be terminated outside the M25 or the passengers and operators should be heavily penalised for through trains.

Why ? Trains are allocated and specified by the DFT.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I'm still of the opinion that Train operators should be penalised for operating Diesel Engines in the London Low Emissions Zone where the main line terminus is electrified.
Diesel hauled trains should be terminated outside the M25 or the passengers and operators should be heavily penalised for through trains.

Hmm, let's see.... some of that would be pretty minor changes to service patterns..... some of it.....

Euston-Birmingham-Glasgow/Edinburgh would go back to being split at New Street, with Voyagers operating north of Birmingham and Pendolinos to the south.

Services to Chester and Holyhead would be cut back in some form, and possibly handed over to ATW.

Southern would no longer use 171s for direct services to London.

Some SWT services would probably have to start at Basingstoke (or somewhere out that way).

Some VTEC services would probably have to start/terminate at Peterborough.

Great Western, Grand Central, EMT and Hull Trains would be unviable.

I'm sure you have a plan for freight and Network Rail too.

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, and it is very annoying that Voyagers run under wires for entire end to end trips on the WCML given that diesels are desperately needed elsewhere on the network. For example, Cardiff> Gloucester > Birmingham > Derby > Nottingham is operated by XC with 3 or even 2 car Turbostars (170’s) which are clearly inadequate for linking these major centres of population.

The situation with ATW now appears to be quite desperate regarding the shortage of rolling stock v demand. Bad enough having 2 coach Coradias (175’s) on some of the Manchester to SW Wales services but sometimes even 150’s may be used.

One thing that should be remembered is just because some ex-CT routes transferred to XC along with some 170s it doesn't mean those routes should be top of the list for getting any released Voyagers. With the Voyagers having long noses, a higher proportion of FC accommodation and being designed to have an on-board shop replacing 3 car 170s with 4 car 220s might not give as many extra seats as some hope for. It's also worth remembering a 6 car 170 formation might fit at stations where a pair of Voyagers would not.

 

[najaB]

Diesel hauled trains should be terminated outside the M25 or the passengers and operators should be heavily penalised for through trains.

So passengers from Inverness, Stirling and Aberdeen should have their fares increased because the northern ECML and HML haven't been electrified? A gift to the SNP if ever there was one!

 

[JamesRowden]

So passengers from Inverness, Stirling and Aberdeen should have their fares increased because the northern ECML and HML haven't been electrified? A gift to the SNP if ever there was one!

Class 800

 

[paul1609]

So passengers from Inverness, Stirling and Aberdeen should have their fares increased because the northern ECML and HML haven't been electrified? A gift to the SNP if ever there was one!

Hopefully in a few years they will have to alight at Gretna Green International for passport and visa checks anyway they can change to an electric train at the same time. Two cross border lines wont be justifiable post independence as Scotland will be broke.

 

[najaB]

Class 800

In a couple of year's time, yes. But not today.

 

[Groningen]

as Scotland will be broke.

Electrification of the lines to Inverness will not be cheap and further; frequency is not high enough to justify it.

 

[JamesRowden]

In a couple of year's time, yes. But not today.

Same with the suggested rule. The rule would effectively require train operaters to acquire more stock capable of extracting power from electrified lines (or containing batteries or a clean fuel). This would take time. Therefore it would make sense for the train operaters to be given time to make the changes.