Difference between a Train Driver Instructor and a Driver Mentor

[JDAWC]

At my TOC we have instructors, assessors and ‘competency managers’. Instructors carry out traction handling/training and well as route learning, assessors do minor assessments ie traction handling assessment as well as back to work plans and also can be used in the role of an instructor and finally competency managers who do full pass outs, yearly rules + simulator assessments, random ride outs, OTDR downloads as well as incident investigation.

However I know some TOCs employ the use of Mentor Drivers. At these TOCs, generally how does this work?

Instructors licenses are effectively ‘on the line’ if the person they’re with (providing it’s a trainee) mucks up is this the same case with mentors?

Do mentors get paid more than a regular driver like an instructor or assessor does?

Can mentors actually teach somebody how to drive a traction type/drive a route or do they more assist someone who is near enough competent/towards the end of their route learning?

Any help or clarity would be really useful!

 

[anglian96]

Mentor drivers generally teach and build the trainees hours up ready for there final assessment week and thats pretty much it. If the trainee messes up then its also on the mentors licence. There salary is slightly higher by maybe 2-3k a year. A mentor can take someone who's completely new to the role from scratch and take them in the cab. Hope this helps

 

[driver9000]

I think it just depends where you work which title they choose to give to the instructor role. Some companies don't have the Assessor grade and all assessments would be done by management.

 

[LokiB]

Mentor drivers generally teach and build the trainees hours up ready for there final assessment week and thats pretty much it. If the trainee messes up then its also on the mentors licence. There salary is slightly higher by maybe 2-3k a year. A mentor can take someone who's completely new to the role from scratch and take them in the cab. Hope this helps

The don't necessarily get paid more. Mentors at Northern don't get any incentive to become one.

 

[driverd]

Depends entirely on the company, for instance, northern have drivers, mentors, instructors and driver team managers.

Broadly the same roles as you outline, but change the word instructor for mentor, assessor for instructor and competence manager for driver team manager.

At northern theres no pay increase for mentors - it was agreed a long long while ago that all drivers are now mentors by default (even though there's a vague selection process, a course to go on and 3 years expereince required before you can take anyone out with you) as part of a pay deal.

Interestingly, some TOCs require you to be with a mentor/instructor to drive a train whilst route learning as a qualified driver, others do not.

One of the many differences that will need to be/probably wont be harmonised (delete as your inner scepticism sees fit) by GBR.

 

[baz962]

Emr have both. Both can teach trainees although instructors will do both high and low speed handling before handing over to a mentor. Instructors can assess and take traction courses and pass people out. Mentors can only teach further handling and routes but can't assess or pass people out or take full traction courses. Mentors get paid more than drivers and instructors a bit more again.

 

[anglian96]

The don't necessarily get paid more. Mentors at Northern don't get any incentive to become one.

Anyone would be be a mug to do that role for them then. Why would anyone want the added workload/ pressure for no extra seems silly to me

 

[504]

Northern West don't have mentors. Instructors do not do assessments just training, traction routes and safety briefs. DTMS do the rest ride outs down loads pass outs.

 

[driverd]

Anyone would be be a mug to do that role for them then. Why would anyone want the added workload/ pressure for no extra seems silly to me

See my above post - part of a pay deal.

 

[Sheridan]

See my above post - part of a pay deal.

But does that pay deal mean that anyone can be forced to be a mentor? I would hope not, but then what’s the incentive for anyone to actually take it on for real if everyone is getting paid for it already?

 

[LokiB]

See my above post - part of a pay deal.

Yep but if everyone gets the extra money why would anyone want to be a minder?

 

[driverd]

But does that pay deal mean that anyone can be forced to be a mentor? I would hope not, but then what’s the incentive for anyone to actually take it on for real if everyone is getting paid for it already?

I've never known it - it's still an appointed position.

Yep but if everyone gets the extra money why would anyone want to be a minder?

Sorry, I may have misunderstood the initial question. It's basically just for progression. As a rule of thumb, it's generally expected that you'll be a minder for a trainee or two before even being considered for an instructor position (and, potentially, manager further down the line).

Then, of course, some people just like the company in the cab/helping someone else develop in their career. Motivations vary I suppose.

 

[66701GBRF]

But does that pay deal mean that anyone can be forced to be a mentor? I would hope not, ....

Indeed. Not everyone is fit to be a mentor, even some current mentors, so sounds like a recipe for disaster to expect everyone and anyone to do it.

 

[16.19]

Anyone would be be a mug to do that role for them then. Why would anyone want the added workload/ pressure for no extra seems silly to me

Being a mentor is a good role, regardless if you’re paid any extra or not.

As mentioned above it’s more of a side-ways step to becoming an Instructor Driver and further down the line a Driver Team Manager.

Although, you don’t necessarily have to be either to become a DTM, however it is adventurous.

 

[JDAWC]

I've never known it - it's still an appointed position.



Sorry, I may have misunderstood the initial question. It's basically just for progression. As a rule of thumb, it's generally expected that you'll be a minder for a trainee or two before even being considered for an instructor position (and, potentially, manager further down the line).

Then, of course, some people just like the company in the cab/helping someone else develop in their career. Motivations vary I suppose.

Thanks for your responses on this thread, really helpful. Would you happen to know at Northern for a depot like Piccadilly or Victoria where there are multiple links - 5 at Vic and 3 at Picc - would instructors sign all routes.

As an example, if there was a link 1 driver at Piccadilly who became an instructor, would they have to learn Sheffield, Liverpool and Buxton as these are the routes their link doesn’t sign? Vice versa would a link 2 driver becoming an instructor have to learn Chester, Preston, Buxton, Alsager, Newton Heath and Victoria as their link doesn’t sign these?

At my place Driving Assessors (who seem to have the same role as instructors at Northern) sign everything at their depot even if it’s another links work. They maintain their line of work in their link but of course can be used to cross cover another link from spare/RDW etc.

Just wondered if it was the same for Northern?

 

[Undiscovered]

Anyone would be be a mug to do that role for them then. Why would anyone want the added workload/ pressure for no extra seems silly to me

While there may be no immediate rewards, most Instructors pick and choose their hours, when with trainees. They also work rest days, and are regularly released for refresher days and other training related things.

I get paid a modest amount to be a Coach with my company, but it guarantees me at least 10 rest days a year and two 'classroom' days as well, which are very valuable.

 

[dk1]

I am a driver instructor and I think now the only one that refused to go on an A1 Assessor course. At the time the TOC I work for wanted all instructors to enhance their capabilities but myself and another at the same depot chose not to.

We have never had mentors afaik.

 

[LokiB]

While there may be no immediate rewards, most Instructors pick and choose their hours, when with trainees. They also work rest days, and are regularly released for refresher days and other training related things.

I get paid a modest amount to be a Coach with my company, but it guarantees me at least 10 rest days a year and two 'classroom' days as well, which are very valuable.

That's a DI at Northern though.
A minder doesn't get any of those perks, the trainee just follows the minders shift pattern and drives on the minders licence.

 

[43066]

At northern theres no pay increase for mentors - it was agreed a long long while ago that all drivers are now mentors by default (even though there's a vague selection process, a course to go on and 3 years expereince required before you can take anyone out with you) as part of a pay deal.

This doesn’t really make sense - if you have to go through a selection process you cannot be a mentor by default. It sounds like a pretty poor thing to have agreed by the union, and no doubt suits the company as a way of doing things on the cheap!

Yep but if everyone gets the extra money why would anyone want to be a minder?

In reality there is no extra money and everyone who ends up being a mentor does so for free .

As noted motivations vary, but it’s not unreasonable to expect some recompense for the risk to one’s license, and also the additional paperwork. That said £3k per year (the mentor uplift where I am) isn’t enough to make someone want to do it solely for the money, so other motivations will need to be present.

It can also be a good thing to have on your CV if you want to move operators, and shows some progression beyond “just” being a regular driver.

 

[driverd]

Thanks for your responses on this thread, really helpful. Would you happen to know at Northern for a depot like Piccadilly or Victoria where there are multiple links - 5 at Vic and 3 at Picc - would instructors sign all routes.

As an example, if there was a link 1 driver at Piccadilly who became an instructor, would they have to learn Sheffield, Liverpool and Buxton as these are the routes their link doesn’t sign? Vice versa would a link 2 driver becoming an instructor have to learn Chester, Preston, Buxton, Alsager, Newton Heath and Victoria as their link doesn’t sign these?

At my place Driving Assessors (who seem to have the same role as instructors at Northern) sign everything at their depot even if it’s another links work. They maintain their line of work in their link but of course can be used to cross cover another link from spare/RDW etc.

Just wondered if it was the same for Northern?

So at my old depot it was the case that instructors broadly stayed in their links. On occasions they may sign something additional (eg: a new diversion or a training line), or if there was a shortage of instructors in a certain link, a few may sign additional routes. The vast majority, however, would only sign their link. Any who signed additional routes would not be entitled to RDW on those routes unless all available drivers in the link has been exhausted first (in other words, to stop instructors getting rest day work on driving turns ahead of drivers in the link).

This doesn’t really make sense - if you have to go through a selection process you cannot be a mentor by default. It sounds like a pretty poor thing to have agreed by the union, and no doubt suits the company as a way of doing things on the cheap!

It's not really a formal selection process, you don't have to apply, but equally you'll don't go on the minders course by default. You usually get approached and asked if you're interested, though on occasion they've asked interested parties to put it in writing. Officially you are a mentor driver from day 1. I can't say I disagree on it being a bit of a poor shout by ASLEF, but we are where we are, they don't struggle too much for mentors. I did it myself in the past and, in fairness, thoroughly enjoyed the experience, even if it wasn't for additional pay (I find helping others acheive their goal quite a rewarding experience). I guess it's not always about the money.

 

[43066]

I did it myself in the past and, in fairness, thoroughly enjoyed the experience, even if it wasn't for additional pay (I frind helping others acheive their goal quite a rewarding experience). I guess it's not always about the money.

Agree with that - and the reason I signed up for it wasn’t just about the money (truthfully it was a combination of wanting to develop others, and also improving my CV). Most people I’ve spoken to who have done mentoring or instructing are agreed that the paperwork involved and aggro outweigh the reward even where it is paid - but I do think ASLEF have sold themselves very short with the arrangements you describe at Northern.

Another variation I’ve come across is “ad hoc” DIs/mentors where people are only paid the additional amount when they actually have a trainee.

 

[66701GBRF]

Another variation I’ve come across is “ad hoc” DIs/mentors where people are only paid the additional amount when they actually have a trainee.

This is how it was at GBRF up until about 2 years ago. Now they operate both systems. You can either have a salary up lift or stay on the older ad hoc system and claim as and when you do it.

 

[43066]

This is how it was at GBRF up until about 2 years ago. Now they operate both systems. You can either have a salary up lift or stay on the older ad hoc system and claim as and when you do it.

A bit hard to see why anyone would choose not to take the permanent uplift. If you choose to remain ad hoc do you get any control over whether you have trainees with you?

 

[66701GBRF]

A bit hard to see why anyone would choose not to take the permanent uplift. If you choose to remain ad hoc do you get any control over whether you have trainees with you?

No, no say on when and who goes with you, but if you take the uplift you are expected to attend an external assessor course and be an assessor too. I think there is a limit to how many can take the uplift per depot too. The uplift is not entirely permanent either. It's a two year contract and if not renewed (by either party) your pay is frozen until non mentors catch up.

 

[43066]

No, no say on when and who goes with you, but if you take the uplift you are expected to attend an external assessor course and be an assessor too. I think there is a limit to how many can take the uplift per depot too. The uplift is not entirely permanent either. It's a two year contract and if not renewed (by either party) your pay is frozen until non mentors catch up.

Thanks - interesting to hear how these arrangements differ. Not everyone would want to assess I suppose - although where I am it’s a pretty good way of getting released from the roster, choosing your own hours (within reason) and cleaning up on rest day work.

Quite a few mentors at my depot are permanent despite not having any trainees for months on end, which is a pretty decent arrangement.

 

[Efini92]

So at my old depot it was the case that instructors broadly stayed in their links. On occasions they may sign something additional (eg: a new diversion or a training line), or if there was a shortage of instructors in a certain link, a few may sign additional routes. The vast majority, however, would only sign their link. Any who signed additional routes would not be entitled to RDW on those routes unless all available drivers in the link has been exhausted first (in other words, to stop instructors getting rest day work on driving turns ahead of drivers in the link).



It's not really a formal selection process, you don't have to apply, but equally you'll don't go on the minders course by default. You usually get approached and asked if you're interested, though on occasion they've asked interested parties to put it in writing. Officially you are a mentor driver from day 1. I can't say I disagree on it being a bit of a poor shout by ASLEF, but we are where we are, they don't struggle too much for mentors. I did it myself in the past and, in fairness, thoroughly enjoyed the experience, even if it wasn't for additional pay (I find helping others acheive their goal quite a rewarding experience). I guess it's not always about the money.

Apologies if I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying, a mentor driver from day 1 can train a trainee driver?

 

[driverd]

Apologies if I’m misunderstanding what you’re saying, a mentor driver from day 1 can train a trainee driver?

No no, you have to have 3 years experience to be used as a mentor, however, all drivers are paid as mentors.

Completely appreciate it seems an odd way of doing things.