Different revenue protection approaches at different TOCs?

[Leogilbert007]

Today travelling from SE London to Clifton Down (Bristol) via Salisbury this morning, my ticket was checked 3 separate times: once on the SWR to Salisbury and then on each of the two GWR Trains. This is a good thing imo but I never usually get my tickets checked on every leg of every long distance journey, and commuting every day on Southern have never had my ticket checked. Is this part of a concerted revenue protection effort by TOCs? Follow-up, how do TOCs decide what trains to prioritise for revenue protection?

Update: ticket not checked once on the return journey, 1700 from Bristol TM to London PAD. Full 1h38 intercity journey connecting two major cities. I’m sure there’s a perfectly valid reason but that feels peculiar— such a service should surely be a priority?

 

[styles]

It's a cost-benefit analysis, fundamentally.

On commuter services where both ends are protected by staffed gate lines at mainline stations, and it can be difficult to walk down a carriage, it may just not be deemed worthwhile. The time of day is a factor in its own right, if you have a rough idea of when fare evaders are likely to travel, based on past operations.

On a semi-rural line when people can just walk onto platforms and trains without even seeing a barrier let alone a human, it's often worth a check.

On long-distance routes like ECML it's worthwhile to catch people on Advance fares not valid on that service.

Etc.

 

[FrontSideBus]

Depends on the guard too I suppose. Some scrutinise my railcard carefully while some don't even want to see it.

 

[Ducatist4]

I wondered if it was on some instruction from the company. Sometimes on my local like they ask for railcards, mostly they don't. Sometimes they look visually at the ticket, other times they scan it.

 

[dk1]

Most guards at GA are very proactive over checking railcards and their validity.

 

[Falcon1200]

Update: ticket not checked once on the return journey, 1700 from Bristol TM to London PAD. Full 1h38 intercity journey connecting two major cities. I’m sure there’s a perfectly valid reason but that feels peculiar— such a service should surely be a priority?

Given that that train had a Guard there would seem to be no good reason why tickets would not be checked; Unless it has been decreed that this is not necessary when every station stopped at is barriered?

 

[Sonic1234]

It's also interesting how different TOCs see the value of gatelines. GTR gate everything they can, you know it must be some tinpot halt or architecturally impossible if you find an ungated GTR station. It's a surprise to find a gateline on SE, who assume the vast majority are travelling to London or a major station, most people are honest (or have muscle memory tapping in) and it's a better economic decision to let the dishonest few on small flows get away with it.

A lot is said on the forum about the flaws of using barriers, but are barriers good enough? Thameslink would probably prefer a few percent claim a Railcard discount they aren't entitled to and not have to fully staff their trains.

GTR (Southern) ticket checks are mostly "orange paper checks" - if you can show something which approximates a ticket then it's all good.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Personally, I'd like to see gated stations have gates in use first train to last. Late at night, I'd like to see them with a few burly security guards to deter people from ticketless travel

 

[Sonic1234]

Personally, I'd like to see gated stations have gates in use first train to last. Late at night, I'd like to see them with a few burly security guards to deter people from ticketless travel

It's a question of economics. Are there enough people travelling without a ticket, and will change their behaviour, to pay for this? What is the value of the detterent effect? But I agree there should be an effort to set and maintain standards, same with shoplifting.

I've seen them open the gates when "rough looking youths" approach - at that point it hasn't been established if they have tickets or not, so they could all be holding Anytimes. The staff don't want the fuss. These people aren't travelling long distances, they're getting away with a £2 Oyster fare, not a first class trip to Inverness.

 

[Towers]

There are, and always have been, wildly differing standards and behaviours between colleagues whose job roles include checking tickets. It isn’t remotely unusual to find a guard one day who is very, very proactive, another the next day who does very little, and another the following day who is somewhere between the two. Considering that many guards will work different trains and routes on different days, it’s easy to see the level of potential variation on a small sample of journeys.

There are other considerations too; a guard may be undergoing some form of training or assessment which limits their usual ability to spend a journey carrying out ticket checks throughout the whole train. There may be a particular issue with the train itself or with a customer which requires their attention for a part of the journey, there may be a crew change en route which disrupts the rythm of one person working their way through the train, and so on.

Many possibilities!

 

[Lewisham2221]

There are, and always have been, wildly differing standards and behaviours between colleagues whose job roles include checking tickets. It isn’t remotely unusual to find a guard one day who is very, very proactive, another the next day who does very little, and another the following day who is somewhere between the two. Considering that many guards will work different trains and routes on different days, it’s easy to see the level of potential variation on a small sample of journeys.

There are other considerations too; a guard may be undergoing some form of training or assessment which limits their usual ability to spend a journey carrying out ticket checks throughout the whole train. There may be a particular issue with the train itself or with a customer which requires their attention for a part of the journey, there may be a crew change en route which disrupts the rythm of one person working their way through the train, and so on.

Many possibilities!

Agreed. Even if you you were to travel on the same service on all 7 days of the week you could have a completely different revenue experience on all 7 journeys, there's just so many variables.

It may be difficult for the guard to get through much of the train between stations, particularly if stations are close together or they need to be at a particular set of doors due to location of door controls or for SDO requirements. A longer and/or busier train will obviously take far longer for the guard to get through. Checking railcards as well can take literally twice as long, if not more. Dealing with just one passenger who doesn't have the correct ticket can take up almost the entire time between stops. Guards may prioritise ticket checks in certain areas of the train (e.g First Class / Standard Premium). They may need to be in contact with control/resources/stations regarding delays or disruption or similar. Newer guards may be encouraged to concentrate on their safety critical duties and build up their revenue duties over a period of time - potentially the same with any guards who have had an extended period of time away from work or those who have had an operational incident.

Like I say, there's just so many variables, it's probably impossible to list them all.

 

[alex17595]

With the rise of e-tickets ticket barriers seem much more useful than in the past. Nowadays you only need to catch someone with a short ticket/ wrong railcard/child ticket once and you can go through their entire purchase history.

 

[FrontSideBus]

The rise of barriers is probably why you see more people jumping the fences these days!

 

[Mat17]

Do LNER barrier any stations other than London? Doncaster is a fare dodger's paradise.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Do LNER barrier any stations other than London? Doncaster is a fare dodger's paradise.

Newcastle certainly is, yes.

Most guards at GA are very proactive over checking railcards and their validity.

Whereas if Bletchley guards bother checking they never ask for Railcards.

Chiltern seems to mostly rely on the barriers at Marylebone for the Aylesbury line (as the vast majority are going there) though there were RPIs on one I was on this week, properly in force and asking for Railcards too. Seemed a bit odd to check at Marylebone (it was immediately on departure) but I guess they were looking for short-fares and absent Railcards - I doubt anyone would have not had a ticket at all unless they'd jumped the barriers.

 

[Sleepy]

Do LNER barrier any stations other than London? Doncaster is a fare dodger's paradise.

Peterborough has barriers

 

[rg177]

Northern has certainly transformed since I was a teenager. Ticket checks used to be rare with a lot of hiding in back cabs in the mid 2010s, but now guards are incredibly proactive - certainly in the North East. Its highly unusual not to be checked.

Their attitude in general has changed really. You used to get some incredibly 'off' behaviour and spurious accusations of Rovers and the like not being valid. The last time I asked a Northern guard if I could use an Advance ticket on his service due to a cancellation (IIRC on another TOC) he walked me to the RPI before departure, told him my ticket was to be accepted and gestured for me to take a seat.

Newcastle is also indeed barriered but has a TVM on the paid side, and I've never witnessed any RPI activity on the barriers themselves - so if you make it there without a ticket, the ball is in your court to purchase one!

 

[sheff1]

Do LNER barrier any stations other than London? Doncaster is a fare dodger's paradise.

Darlington has barriers.

When there is a rare revenue 'block' at Doncaster in my experience they only stand at the top of the stairs on the left (when exiting) which means anyone without a ticket just uses the right side.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern has certainly transformed since I was a teenager. Ticket checks used to be rare with a lot of hiding in back cabs in the mid 2010s, but now guards are incredibly proactive - certainly in the North East. Its highly unusual not to be checked.

On the west side interestingly I find the total opposite. In the 1990s most tickets were sold on board and guards would take pride in making sure they got round everyone and weren't delayed doing the doors, though admittedly this was mostly only 2-car units. Whereas now there's a reasonable chance of not being checked. I think part of this is because they're not allowed to unit-hop like they used to.

 

[rg177]

I think part of this is because they're not allowed to unit-hop like they used to.

Yup, we have a solid diet of 156s and 158s up here so no such issue and actually significantly fewer delays with doors than you used to get, particularly clarting on down a crowded 142 midway through a transaction on a bulky Avantix.

The advent of eTickets and last minute Advances has certainly helped.

 

[chris_in_salop]

What is this obsession with revenue protection? It makes the passenger experience about as pleasant as a trip to the dentist.

 

[Jan Mayen]

What is this obsession with revenue protection? It makes the passenger experience about as pleasant as a trip to the dentist.

Not sure it's an obsession, but simply the way the railway checks people have paid for the service being used.

 

[jon0844]

What is this obsession with revenue protection? It makes the passenger experience about as pleasant as a trip to the dentist.

Well get used to more of it as the DfT is very keen on more checks taking place, and for more of the day.

 

[Sonic1234]

Not sure it's an obsession, but simply the way the railway checks people have paid for the service being used.

It impacts on customers. It's annoying to find barriers programmed to reject your ticket, staff who don't know about things like break of journey and it's a nervous experience using ticket acceptance or being legitimately on the wrong train on an Advance ticket - what happens if staff don't know/understand/care?

One view would be revenue protection helps all customers by ensuring everyone pays for their travel, keeping prices down. The other view is as far as I know I've always held a valid ticket, and other people's ticketing arrangements are of no concern of mine.

Customer service standards are low on the railway, and getting worse. TOCs have embraced their niche being transport for journeys where you have no other way of doing them, or the alternatives are even more unappealing, but have to be done (commuting, business travel, appointments) or the destination is appealing enough to put up with it (London, major events).

 

[Jan Mayen]

It impacts on customers. It's annoying to find barriers programmed to reject your ticket, staff who don't know about things like break of journey and it's a nervous experience using ticket acceptance or being legitimately on the wrong train on an Advance ticket - what happens if staff don't know/understand/care?

One view would be revenue protection helps all customers by ensuring everyone pays for their travel, keeping prices down. The other view is as far as I know I've always held a valid ticket, and other people's ticketing arrangements are of no concern of mine.

Customer service standards are low on the railway, and getting worse. TOCs have embraced their niche being transport for journeys where you have no other way of doing them, or the alternatives are even more unappealing, but have to be done (commuting, business travel, appointments) or the destination is appealing enough to put up with it (London, major events).

One thing I would like to change is fir barriers to accept all vid tickets which are presented. My All Line Rover, for example.

 

[sheff1]

On the west side interestingly I find the total opposite.

My experience too.

This side of the Pennines tickets seem to be checked on pretty much every Northern journey, usually multiple times.
Travelling around Greater Manchester, Cheshire & South Lancashire I encounter ticket checks much less frequently.

 

[Kite159]

Personally, I'd like to see gated stations have gates in use first train to last. Late at night, I'd like to see them with a few burly security guards to deter people from ticketless travel

Barriers are only good at saying a particular ticket is valid at that station, not necessary for the train that passenger is going to be boarding.

A ticket to Duddeston will pop open the barriers at Birmingham New Street, it doesn't stop that passenger from boarding a XC service first stop Derby or any other longer distance service.

 

[bramling]

What is this obsession with revenue protection? It makes the passenger experience about as pleasant as a trip to the dentist.

It’s a government thing, as they’ve identified that this is one way they can claw back some money.

However I think many passengers do actually like it as well, as people generally don’t like seeing others get away without paying when they’ve paid themselves, especially with rail fares not exactly being cheap these days.

There was always quite a strong ethos in Regional Railways of checking tickets. It was always quite a step-change for people used to the London/south-east area to find the guards being pretty religious on tickets. South West Trains always seemed pretty hot on it too, with the obvious exception of the London metro routes.

 

[jon0844]

One thing I would like to change is fir barriers to accept all vid tickets which are presented. My All Line Rover, for example.

I can't see much effort being made these days to fix any issues with magstrip tickets, given the gradual move to Aztec codes on paper or as e-tickets.

Barriers are only good at saying a particular ticket is valid at that station, not necessary for the train that passenger is going to be boarding.

A ticket to Duddeston will pop open the barriers at Birmingham New Street, it doesn't stop that passenger from boarding a XC service first stop Derby or any other longer distance service.

It helps when you have checks at all gated stations, and even blocks at small ones. If people short ticket, you can also detect this.

It doesn't even need to be done every morning or night, just often enough that a) offenders see revenue staff out or b) word spreads on social media that staff are about.

Add in Travel Safe Officers who can actually physically remove someone from a train or station and we might be getting somewhere; namely sending out the message that actually, no, you can't just do what you want and nobody will bother you.

 

[Jan Mayen]

The All Line Rover I purchased a few weeks ago was on a bog roll with AZTEC code. It worked the gates at two stations.