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Digital Fraud Email from WMT?
- Thread starter moongirlblue
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moongirlblue2
New Member
Sorry I forgot to specify it. Yes I've already sent this reply.
Yes, I wanted to know what I should have written then? And what to write if I get an answer back?
Yes, I wanted to know what I should have written then? And what to write if I get an answer back?
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It would be helpful to get an update from @moongirlblue but please start your own thread if you are in need of assistance. This is because experience has taught us that no two cases are ever the same, however similar they might appear to be at first.
aviationgeek
Member
I'm of the understanding that TOC's are able to access info on the time the railcard was purchased. Your email confirmation from either Trainline or Railcard (whichever platform you purchased it from) will state the time of purchase along with a thank you and download code to enter. What the TOC wants to know was the date the previous railcard expired? Was it the same day that you purchased your new railcard? was it a few days previous or a few weeks/months previous that it expired? Did they send you an email informing you that your railcard was about to expire and then one to tell you that your railcard had expired? If you had continuous ownership of a railcard, then your hard card should have been available to show them that it expired and as your new railcard was on your phone and you were unable to show this, as your phone was dead, the expiry date on your old hard card shoudl have been sufficient to show them that you were covered.
If it's a 16-25 railcard, I'm assuming there will be 9 years worth of either a digital, or paper trail relating to purchases (or less of they were 3 year long railcards). You need to contact Trainline or Railcard as they will have your details on record as owning a railcard and the dates it was valid from and to. As a student, was it purchased via Santander?
It seems harsh that you need to provide evidence, but in order to avoid charges of fare evasion, it would seem the best option for you.
If it's a 16-25 railcard, I'm assuming there will be 9 years worth of either a digital, or paper trail relating to purchases (or less of they were 3 year long railcards). You need to contact Trainline or Railcard as they will have your details on record as owning a railcard and the dates it was valid from and to. As a student, was it purchased via Santander?
It seems harsh that you need to provide evidence, but in order to avoid charges of fare evasion, it would seem the best option for you.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
How did your case end up? Did they apply the "forget/etc a railcard once a year" concession (or rule) to your initial problem? Did they drop trying to suggest you might have been claiming a discount without having a railcard for years past?
moongirlblue
Member
After I sent my last email, I didn’t hear back from them for approximately a month. However, I just received an email today where they’re threatening to prosecute me and report me to the British Transport Police. I will copy paste the email now.
Any advice on how to approach this will be appreciated. I would like to add that they did not answer my questions and are now accusing me of ignoring their emails when 1) I have been prompt with my replies and 2) The last email sent was from me, not them. They did not respond at all to my last email.
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moongirlblue
Member
Hi. I’ve received this email from them today, more than a month later.
Dear…,
Re: Escalation of case.
As we have not heard from you, we are now reporting you to our Prosecutions team and British Transport Police, this will now incur further costs and fees.
They will contact you in the coming weeks, we advise you respond to them as to ignore this could lead to legal action.
Your case will no longer be with us from the 17thJune 2024 and we will forward all of our evidence to our Prosecutions team and British Transport Police.
Please note: West Midlands Trains take travel fraud extremely seriously and is committed to prosecuting all cases of fare evasion to the full extent of the law. Travelling on the railway with the intent to avoid paying the full fare is an offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889. Such an offence carries a maximum fine of £1,000 and/or three months’ imprisonment and, in either case, a criminal record. It must also be considered whether this matter amounts to a much more serious offence under the Fraud Act 2006.
Kind regards,
Investigator ID DFI20968
Fraud and Investigations Manager
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moongirlblue
Member
My last email definitely sent and was sent to correct email address. It was part of the same email thread. The digital fraud manager didn’t reply to me for almost 2 months and is now accusing me of ignoring WMT’s emails.
As said, it sounds as if they haven't received it for some reason. It is probably worth replying again with proof that you had contacted them as previously requested.
moongirlblue
Member
That is odd because all my previous emails had been received and responded to. I replied to all of WMT’s emails within 24hrs. The last email I sent to them was on the 23/4/24.
I won’t be responding to them now until I contact a lawyer. If they are threatening to prosecute me, it would be best for me to have legal advice from a professional.
moongirlblue
Member
Thank you for clarifying this and for trying to help. I appreciate it. If you check my previous replies, you will see that I did not purchase the previous rail cards myself. They were purchased by family members. I received no emails about my railcard expiring.
Another bit of information I would like to add is that I am not a UK citizen - I lived here as an undergraduate student, and now as a postgraduate student. In between my studies I went back home for a while.
I was also not in the UK during Covid. My old railcard expired during this period, as they were only valid for 1 year. I had no reason to keep these railcards. I have had 2 railcards until now - the 3rd one I am currently using. I returned back to the UK this year, and purchased my digital railcard the day after my return for the journey to my university. This is when I was stopped by the Ticket Collector. But they can see on my trainline app that I did not buy tickets for a period until the day I was stopped.
WesternLancer
Established Member
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Resend your prev e mail with a covering msg explaining when you sent that etc. if you have a postal address print it all and send that tracked postage via a local post office. Do this asap.
Get it there before 17 June deadline.
Post draft here if you want it checked before sending.
moongirlblue
Member
Can you please explain what you mean by sending it via post? I have been corresponding with them via email. Why do I need to reach out to them via post?
Because for whatever reason they haven’t got your email. Email them again, and also correspond by post - belt and braces.
WesternLancer
Established Member
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exactly this - communicate with them by all the means available to you @moongirlblue
AlbertBeale
Established Member
You should print out all the e-mail thread, including the one they seem to have not seen, and send it urgently with a covering note pointing out that their last message to you makes no sense and they must have overlooked your last e-mail, etc etc. (It does seem important to try to avoid it moving into a different part of their system, rather than having the cost and complexity of lawyers and so on.) And sent the letter by what's usually called Recorded Delivery - formally "Signed For" these days. Just take the letter into a Post Office and pay a pound or two on top of normal First Class postage, and you'll get a receipt to prove you sent it, and a reference code you can later check online to confirm that the letter was delivered to them. Having proof you've tried to deal with this formally, in writing, gives you extra protection if they continue to charge ahead and ignore what you've told them.
But, as has been said before on this thread, it does all seem a bit weird. You failed to show your railcard just once [which they generally allow without penalty once a year anyway], and subsequently showed them that you did have a valid railcard at the time, despite not being able to prove it at that moment. That would normally be the end of it (or, at worst, some action based on that one occasion). If you hadn't had a valid railcard for that journey, they might have suspected a pattern; but you did, so there was no reason for them to investigate your earlier journeys anyway; and it's certainly unreasonable to expect you to prove anything years after the events concerned, if there's no evidence at all to cause them to suspect anything is out of order with your travels.
But if you've done nothing wrong, then there can't be any evidence to disclose, can there? Even if for some unknown (to us) reason they were suspicious, they could have no actual evidence. Is there anything else at all that you haven't explained on this thread, which would explain their suspicions?
The OP is guilty of one specimen offence of travelling with an invalid ticket which they do not dispute, which is proving an issue.
What of the T&Cs quoted in post #19 which suggest that if you forget your railcard but you hold a valid one (which the OP has proved to the TOC), you will be charged for a new ticket or a Penalty Fare? This appears to suggest prosecution shouldn't be an option in this case - unless the passenger uses a railcard-discounted ticket while not holding a valid railcard at all.
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It doesn't stop them deciding to prosecute for it as the law allows. Obviously I think WMT are being disgraceful here but again, we have to try and play the field as it lies, however unfairly slanted it may be.
I'm not a forum expert on this, or even any sort of expert on anything really, but these are my thoughts....
If possible, try to split this down into two separate issues.
Number 1) The 'not showing a railcard'. If you are absolutely certain of and can prove the timeline of events, namely buy a railcard - get on train - train departs - ticket check - phone dead, then that should be that. In theory, as people have said, they could prosecute you but I would imagine any judge would take a pretty dim view of having his time wasted like that, especially when backed up by the guidelines. I'd be tempted to ask them if this part of the investigation is considered closed.
Number 2) Historic Railcards. Someone above suggested telling them to sod off, and I'd largely go with that. By the logic shown here, anyone who has bought a ticket with a railcard at any time in the past could be asked to show their expired railcards, which is ridiculous. They have to prove you have done something wrong and, to be honest, unless you're on a train with a ticket and no railcard, they can't. Presumably you have asked your relatives to look through their records, checked old purses, looked in drawers, etc. etc. but I can't see how they can have a leg to stand on with this part of it. The more certain you are of your position, the more bullish you can be.
As I said, not an expert opinion, but that's the sort of stance I'd take.
(EDIT - It might be worth talking to either Citizen's Advice or your Student Union, as they may be able to help too)
If possible, try to split this down into two separate issues.
Number 1) The 'not showing a railcard'. If you are absolutely certain of and can prove the timeline of events, namely buy a railcard - get on train - train departs - ticket check - phone dead, then that should be that. In theory, as people have said, they could prosecute you but I would imagine any judge would take a pretty dim view of having his time wasted like that, especially when backed up by the guidelines. I'd be tempted to ask them if this part of the investigation is considered closed.
Number 2) Historic Railcards. Someone above suggested telling them to sod off, and I'd largely go with that. By the logic shown here, anyone who has bought a ticket with a railcard at any time in the past could be asked to show their expired railcards, which is ridiculous. They have to prove you have done something wrong and, to be honest, unless you're on a train with a ticket and no railcard, they can't. Presumably you have asked your relatives to look through their records, checked old purses, looked in drawers, etc. etc. but I can't see how they can have a leg to stand on with this part of it. The more certain you are of your position, the more bullish you can be.
As I said, not an expert opinion, but that's the sort of stance I'd take.
(EDIT - It might be worth talking to either Citizen's Advice or your Student Union, as they may be able to help too)
Haywain
Veteran Member
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A judge will look at the evidence of whether an offence was committed, and it was. That the railway has a policy that allows the railcard to be forgotten subject to production of it later doesn't alter that an offence was committed. Judges (magistrates) cannot decide that a prosecution is unfair because a policy wasn't followed.
Deafdoggie
Established Member
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I'd disagree. I was driving a bus round a roundabout and a van ran into me. The CPS said that, according to both the highway code and relevant laws (i forget now exactly which) i was in the incorrect lane and therefore it was slam dunk my fault. The law is the law. But the company solicitor argued that it was company policy to use the lane i did. The magistrates agreed & even though legally speaking I was in the wrong lane, they dismissed the case because common sense showed it was perfectly sensible to do what I did. Although, admittedly they've now remodeled the rounabout!
There are hundreds and probably thousands of convictions for this per year. It's all done on paper via the SJP process.
I'm inclined to agree with this. The problem is the company has the offence in 1) to hang over the OP.
What offence were you being prosecuted for? The CPS do not determine the "cause" of accidents or whose "fault" it was - merely whether you have committed an offence. Many traffic offences are not clear cut and strict liability like "boarding a train without a valid ticket". Careless driving isn't. Driving without due care and attention isn't. I'm not aware of any strict liability offence for "being in the wrong lane in a roundabout". Magistrates cannot decide they just don't like a law and to hell with it.
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Deafdoggie
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it was 30 years ago (I was rather alarmed when I realised that!) So I really can't remember
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