Direct services - for fun

[The Ham]

St Ives to Birmingham or any direct service to st ives could make the amount of tourists on the roads decrease.

And St Ives to Birmingham and St Ives to Birmingham (Cambridgeshire and Hampshire, assuming you're meaning Cornwall).

 

[Gwr12345]

Sheffield to Glasgow via Leeds and Dumfries operated by class 68s
York to Carlisle via Darlington also operated by class 68s
Saltburn to Stranraer operated by sprinters, this would also take the route via Darlington

 

[YourMum666]

Doncaster to Preston via Wakefield Kirkgate

 

[Purple Train]

You missed out Gillingham to Gillingham (not sure how you'd make it from Kent to Dorset, or would it go Dorset to Kent, but that's not really something to worry about)

Whitchurch (Glam) to Whitchurch (Hants) via Whitchurch (the other one)?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Electrify Cambridge - Newmarket and extend the KX - Cambridge to Newmarket. (or one of the units)

Double some of the above route, re-open Fulbourn and Cherry Hinton, rebuild the south - north jcn onto the Bury to Ely line, re-open March to Wisbech and run Wisbech - Cambridge trains via Soham and Newmarket.

 

[miklcct]

What I want the most is that:
Add St Albans and Bedford stops onto EMR Intercity services to Sheffield or Nottingham.

This will allow a one-change journey from everywhere along the line, for example, Kentish Town to Sheffield in 1 change instead of 4 changes at St Albans, Bedford, Kettering and Leicester, on the direct route.

 

[billio]

What about Clapham (all stations) to Clapham to take people from south London to the Yorkshire Dales, and if the train passes through Manchester and Birmingham from there as well.

 

[cle]

What I want the most is that:
Add St Albans and Bedford stops onto EMR Intercity services to Sheffield or Nottingham.

This will allow a one-change journey from everywhere along the line, for example, Kentish Town to Sheffield in 1 change instead of 4 changes at St Albans, Bedford, Kettering and Leicester, on the direct route.

Kentish Town to Sheffield (which is really not a journey - it’s London - Sheffield, no one lives in St Pancras after all) is maybe the worst example here. As it’s so close to the terminus.

It’s one very very easy change, or possibly a walk/cycle. No-one in their right mind would head north.

 

[Magdalia]

Electrify Cambridge - Newmarket and extend the KX - Cambridge to Newmarket. (or one of the units)

Double some of the above route, re-open Fulbourn and Cherry Hinton, rebuild the south - north jcn onto the Bury to Ely line, re-open March to Wisbech and run Wisbech - Cambridge trains via Soham and Newmarket.

Cambridge is in dire need of transport infrastructure improvements but most of this will not help very much, and won't be near the top of priorities.

Newmarket doesn't have a strong economic link with Cambridge. The Newmarket economy is unusually self contained, being dominated by the horse racing industry, which hasn't provided significant rail traffic for more than half a century. Newmarket isn't going to become a significant commuting town for Cambridge because most of the surrounding land is racecourses and training gallops. Newmarket area people going to London by train drive to Whittlesford or Audley End.

Fulbourn and Cherry Hinton already have an intensive bus service. Cherry Hinton has 5bph on the 1 and 4bph on the 3, both of which go via the main Cambridge railway station. Cherry Hinton station closed in 1854. Yes that's 1854 not 1954! Fulbourne station wasn't in the village and its location is still effectively useless. The best prospect for a new station would be where Fulbourn Old Drift crosses the railway, near to Capital Park.

The railway is always going to be constrained by the single track Warren Hill Tunnel and some awkward level crossings at the Cambridge end. Limited amounts of redoubling track don't help much because movements at the north end of Cambridge station are at capacity during the peaks once trains running in and out of the carriage sidings are included.

Splitting and joining at Cambridge is now only done where it essential, which is for peak hour 12 car operation, so the only prospect Newmarket could have for through trains to/from Kings Cross would be a few peak hour workings that are 12 cars south of Cambridge.

A Wisbech-Cambridge service would be beneficial, but it would need to go direct from Ely to Cambridge. Going via Soham would give a journey time too slow to be realistic for commuting. That might follow if the Ely North Junction upgrade ever happens.

 

[miklcct]

Kentish Town to Sheffield (which is really not a journey - it’s London - Sheffield, no one lives in St Pancras after all) is maybe the worst example here. As it’s so close to the terminus.

It’s one very very easy change, or possibly a walk/cycle. No-one in their right mind would head north.

The same can be said to Cricklewood and Hendon as well, which are at a significant distance to St Pancras.

 

[Bevan Price]

Think we used to have a Bolton to London service (Scotland - London calling) but then again the link to Piccadilly may not have been built so my memory could be fuzzy.

Bolton would be one of the highest populated areas in England without a direct connection to London and could be done now, and should be!! But given a choice I'd like to get to the south coast (mainly Sussex) from Manchester direct without changing in London. Is that possible or would an Elizabeth-like tunnel N/S be required??

In steam days, Bolton had stops on Colne - London Euston portions, (2 per day if I remember correctly). These ran via Manchester Victoria to Stockport, there joining (or detaching from) Manchester to Euston services.

Even earlier, Bolton Great Moor Street once had through portions to/from Euston.....

 

[Along the bay]

Think we used to have a Bolton to London service (Scotland - London calling) but then again the link to Piccadilly may not have been built so my memory could be fuzzy.

Bolton would be one of the highest populated areas in England without a direct connection to London and could be done now, and should be!! But given a choice I'd like to get to the south coast (mainly Sussex) from Manchester direct without changing in London. Is that possible or would an Elizabeth-like tunnel N/S be required??

Did this service serve Paddington? I'm sure I've seen reference to such services under Cross-country.

 

[fishwomp]

Think we used to have a Bolton to London service (Scotland - London calling) but then again the link to Piccadilly may not have been built so my memory could be fuzzy.

Bolton would be one of the highest populated areas in England without a direct connection to London and could be done now, and should be!! But given a choice I'd like to get to the south coast (mainly Sussex) from Manchester direct without changing in London. Is that possible or would an Elizabeth-like tunnel N/S be required??

There used to be Brighton to North West for many years. For example in 1981 to Man Pic left 09:20 arriving 14:46.,

In summer 1998 M-F the 1M50 14:15 Brighton - Preston, stopped at Bolton 20:38. (https://history.networkrail.co.uk/uncategorized/IO_498fcf74-fecf-4be5-887a-aa28b577d555/ is the WTT)
2001 that was Brighton - Man Pic., I guess when Voyagers and Operation Princess introduced the more regular timetable we saw until Covid, this came to an end.

Did this service serve Paddington? I'm sure I've seen reference to such services under Cross-country.

There used to be Paddington cross-country services - certainly to Birmingham in the late 90s.

 

[Howardh]

In summer 1998 M-F the 1M50 14:15 Brighton - Preston, stopped at Bolton 20:38. (https://history.networkrail.co.uk/uncategorized/IO_498fcf74-fecf-4be5-887a-aa28b577d555/ is the WTT)
2001 that was Brighton - Man Pic.,

Oh, that's interesting! Which is the relevant page, there are an awful lot!

 

[70014IronDuke]

Cambridge is in dire need of transport infrastructure improvements but most of this will not help very much, and won't be near the top of priorities.

I fully agree regarding priorities, but this thread is something else ....

Newmarket doesn't have a strong economic link with Cambridge. The Newmarket economy is unusually self contained, being dominated by the horse racing industry, which hasn't provided significant rail traffic for more than half a century. Newmarket isn't going to become a significant commuting town for Cambridge because most of the surrounding land is racecourses and training gallops. Newmarket area people going to London by train drive to Whittlesford or Audley End.

I bow to your local knowledge on Newmarket economy - but even you admit Newmarket people DO travel to and from London. With a direct service, they would not need to drive anywhere.

Fulbourn and Cherry Hinton already have an intensive bus service. Cherry Hinton has 5bph on the 1 and 4bph on the 3, both of which go via the main Cambridge railway station. Cherry Hinton station closed in 1854. Yes that's 1854 not 1954! Fulbourne station wasn't in the village and its location is still effectively useless. The best prospect for a new station would be where Fulbourn Old Drift crosses the railway, near to Capital Park.

I had a friend who lived in Fulbourne in the 90s, and he lamented the lack of railway station. There would clearly appear to be a substantial population along the line out of Cambridge.

The railway is always going to be constrained by the single track Warren Hill Tunnel and some awkward level crossings at the Cambridge end. Limited amounts of redoubling track don't help much because movements at the north end of Cambridge station are at capacity during the peaks once trains running in and out of the carriage sidings are included.

Splitting and joining at Cambridge is now only done where it essential, which is for peak hour 12 car operation, so the only prospect Newmarket could have for through trains to/from Kings Cross would be a few peak hour workings that are 12 cars south of Cambridge.

I see. Last time I was there (2018) trains were splitting at Cambridge.

A Wisbech-Cambridge service would be beneficial, but it would need to go direct from Ely to Cambridge. Going via Soham would give a journey time too slow to be realistic for commuting. That might follow if the Ely North Junction upgrade ever happens.

My idea of a Wisbech-Cambridge service via Soham and Newmarket is not to provide a Wisbech - Cambridge service as such (even if that sounds daft). It is based on the following logic.

Wisbech - an expanding town, for which many have said deserves a railway connection. (Yes, I know there is an issue of a road bridge at the Wisbech end blocking access to Wisbech itself.)

The cheapest, and simplest, would be to run a March - Wisbech shuttle. But next to nobody would use this to get to March itself - 95% of any users would be going to Ely-Cambridge or Peterboro and beyond.
But this would only work, sort of, if train schedules connected, which with an hourly shuttle, some would not. In any case, the change and time involved would deter potential passengers.

The next possibility might be a Wisbech - Ely shuttle. Better, but still not ideal. (And we know Ely is a bottleneck. Terminating there would be difficult, if not impossible.)

The next possibility, as you note, would be Wisbech - Cambridge - but I suspect taking up a path with a two-car (?) DMU (if indeed a path is available) would be a waste. I suspect many of the Kings Lynn trains have plenty of spare capacity outside the peaks on this stretch.

However, if you extended the service via Soham and Newmarket you would serve Soham's most obvious transport needs - a direct service to Cambridge (I suspect Soham station, as it is, is rather a white elephant, given the poor Peterboro - Ipswich service).

So, in a sense, my suggested service is two services, bolted on to one another. Any normal Wisbech - Cambridge passenger would change at Newmarket into a Kings Lynn (or GA) service. It would just 'so happen' that their original train continues to Cambridge, albeit taking longer.

Will any of it happen? No, at least I would bet against it for the next 25 years.

 

[317 forever]

A train from Plymouth to Manchester could be extended to Liverpool via Newton-le-Willows. It would probably need to be a 220. Then it would provide a direct train from Newton Abbot to Newton-le-Willows.

By way of a true story, I read the news in 2003 of the Go-Ahead takeover of Wilts & Dorset in a discarded paper at Castleford waiting for a train to Goole. I still christen that tale as From Goole to Poole. I wonder whether there could ever be a direct train from Goole to Poole?

It is a pity that the Merseyrail Wirral line is basically operationally separate from the rest of the national network. Otherwise we could look at direct trains from New Brighton to Brighton.

 

[mangyiscute]

I'm still waiting from the trans-Atlantic tunnel to be built so we can have York to New York

 

[317 forever]

You'd never get that of course but an alternate idea which might have legs instead is Piccadilly-Stockport-Macclesfield-Stoke-Uttoxeter-Derby.

It has larger intermediate markets and they were already looking at service improvements for the Derby-Crewe service. This would improve the Stoke-Derby portion.
Could even have it be an odd route of Piccadilly-Stockport-Crewe-Stoke-Uttoxeter-Derby as it would stay on the eastern side of Crewe station so doesn't have to cross the WCML. Always run onto Platform 1 in both directions with capability for Platform 4 if scrambling due to delays is needed.

It would avoid Clay Cross to Derby as well which can have some capacity issues

The first idea sounds remarkably feasible.

The Manchester - Stoke shuttle could be extended to Derby or Nottingham via Uttoxeter. The section from Crewe to Stoke could be replaced by an extension of the Chester - Crewe shuttle.

This would not lead to an increase of trains terminating at Stoke but would mean fewer trains terminating at Crewe.

 

[mangyiscute]

The first idea sounds remarkably feasible.

The Manchester - Stoke shuttle could be extended to Derby or Nottingham via Uttoxeter. The section from Crewe to Stoke could be replaced by an extension of the Chester - Crewe shuttle.

This would not lead to an increase of trains terminating at Stoke but would mean fewer trains terminating at Crewe.

Is the Uttoxeter line doubled, or would there be any other issue with just extending the Manchester to Stoke stopper to Derby and keeping the current EMR Crewe to Newark Castle services as they are, providing a half-hourly service on the line and a direct link to Manchester from Derby and the Uttoxeter line, albeit fairly slow

 

[Peterthegreat]

Is the Uttoxeter line doubled, or would there be any other issue with just extending the Manchester to Stoke stopper to Derby and keeping the current EMR Crewe to Newark Castle services as they are, providing a half-hourly service on the line and a direct link to Manchester from Derby and the Uttoxeter line, albeit fairly slow

Er you'd quickly run out of juice!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

I'm still waiting from the trans-Atlantic tunnel to be built so we can have York to New York

Or, and not quite as far, Holland to New Holland?

 

[Killingworth]

I'm still waiting from the trans-Atlantic tunnel to be built so we can have York to New York

York to New York - nearest stations Shiremoor or West Monkseaton

 

[Peterthegreat]

To be a little more serious......

It seems to me you would probably need to meet two criteria to operate a "successful" open access operation.
1) be profitable (or at least not lose money hand over fist)
and
2) in order to gain the necessary approval serve at least some markets that would not be considered primarily abstractive.

So that leads me to conclude that in order to be profitable London must be at one end of the route and any Open Access operation needs to serve places with no (or very few) trains to London whilst ORCATS raiding some of the larger towns en route.

Without taking into account any technical issues (pathing and rolling stock in particular) the following towns may be worth serving:-

To Euston
Workington, Barrow and Ulverston
Burnley, Blackburn, Darwen and Bolton

To St Pancras
Worksop and Mansfield
Rotherham and Barnsley

To King's Cross
Scarborough and Malton and/or Scarborough, Bridlington, Driffield and Beverley
Cleethorpes, Grimsby and Scunthorpe and/or Cleethorpes, Grimsby, Market Rasen, Sleaford and Spalding (possibly with portion from Skegness and Boston)

To Paddington
Maybe something direct from the Cornish (St Ives, Falmouth) or Devon (Exmouth, Barnstaple) branches.

Any views?

 

[FlyingPotato]

To Euston
Workington, Barrow and Ulverston
Burnley, Blackburn, Darwen and Bolton

I do support barrow getting London services tbh. Might give Lancaster an extra service or two - I have bias here

But for Workington would you go via Barrow or Carlisle

 

[Purple Train]

Any views?

Mostly fine (especially Scarborough, which I would love in the fantasy world we're all occupying in this thread) - but Mansfield to St Pancras would, assuming the local culture is similar to when I lived there, require a passport check at Nottingham

 

[Bartsimho]

The section from Crewe to Stoke could be replaced by an extension of the Chester - Crewe shuttle.

This would have to cross the WCML on the flat which is highly undesirable. I think the shuttle should remain as is with only high benefit services crossing Crewe which is basically none as Chester and North Wales towards Stoke would have low demand for the pathing nightmare. You really have only Shrewsbury to Manchester which would demand it. It would probably always be better to think of Crewe as having through WCML platforms and then joint terminators/side platforms as there would be little demand for crossing services

 

[A S Leib]

To Paddington
Maybe something direct from the Cornish (St Ives, Falmouth) or Devon (Exmouth, Barnstaple) branches.

Or maybe Paddington – Oxford – Stratford-upon-Avon? Through services to Marylebone haven't returned and I'd guess that there's plenty of leisure demand between Oxford and Stratford, as well as giving an extra link between Leamington, Banbury, Oxford and Reading whilst Newcastle services are four per day.

 

[cle]

Or maybe Paddington – Oxford – Stratford-upon-Avon? Through services to Marylebone haven't returned and I'd guess that there's plenty of leisure demand between Oxford and Stratford, as well as giving an extra link between Leamington, Banbury, Oxford and Reading whilst Newcastle services are four per day.

To me, these would be part of building out Chiltern’s Oxford hub:

Oxford to Stratford uA 1tph
Oxford to Birmingham Moor St 1tph

Cowley/Didcot stopper potential extensions too.

And yes, definitely benefits from XC running less services. The Birmingham could run at a faster pattern, the Stratford act as the local service for those lines.

 

[mangyiscute]

Yeah the oxford to Stratford service could pick up the stops between Oxford and banbury perhaps releasing more turbos for gwr (or just replace the service by gwr entirely and run through to Didcot, so the effective change is just extending the current Didcot to Banbury service to Stratford and handing it to Chiltern)

 

[cle]

Yeah the oxford to Stratford service could pick up the stops between Oxford and banbury perhaps releasing more turbos for gwr (or just replace the service by gwr entirely and run through to Didcot, so the effective change is just extending the current Didcot to Banbury service to Stratford and handing it to Chiltern)

Yep that’s kind of what I was thinking.

And Moor St would be more of a regional express, competing / compensating for the poor XC service between Oxford and Birmingham.