Direct Shrewsbury to London services (Extend Chiltern services to Shrewsbury?)

[The Planner]

Not with 158's they won't

This isn't the normal "90mph units wont work on a 100mph line" rubbish is it ? if it is, I'll ring up DB tomorrow and say sorry you can't run the binliner trains at 60mph as they dont fit...

 

[All Line Rover]

Chiltern are already getting complaints of overcrowding because of capacity issues on their semi fast sevices and would sooner use any extra/spare stock strengthening what they already have, as for WSMR finishing only DB know the reason and it is most likely cost analysis and the most cost effective way of using the stock, it is a business and businesses do these things to make profit. The best way to London from Shrewsbury is to drive, the best way to Birmingham from Wrexham is to drive believ me I have tried both and the train service is crap.

Birmingham to Wrexham? Really? I disagree. There is a direct service every 2 hours taking 1h 36m. An Off-Peak return is £14.20 - quite a bargain! According to Google, driving also takes 1h 36m, with a distance of 70.5 miles. And according to "Choozer", on a 40mpg petrol car that would cost £22 return. So the car is more expensive, even though you have to concentrate the whole time!

And Shrewsbury to London? Perhaps. Annoyingly, the following option...

• Shrewsbury [07:46] to Crewe [08:24]
• Crewe [08:29] to London Euston [10:04]

...taking under 2h 20m is not permitted because Crewe has a ridiculous minimum connection time of 10 minutes! I really am starting to think that Shrewsbury to London connections should be centred around Crewe - not Wolverhampton.

 

[SS4]

I really am starting to think that Shrewsbury to London connections should be centred around Crewe - not Wolverhampton.

I agree, if only to relieve congestion in the West Midlands

 

[tbtc]

Birmingham to Wrexham? Really? I disagree. There is a direct service every 2 hours taking 1h 36m. An Off-Peak return is £14.20 - quite a bargain! According to Google, driving also takes 1h 36m, with a distance of 70.5 miles. And according to "Choozer", on a 40mpg petrol car that would cost £22 return. So the car is more expensive, even though you have to concentrate the whole time!

Is that "travelling on packed trains (between Shrewsbury and Wolverhampton)" without First Class...

...the same 158s that you were criticising earlier in this thread?

 

[shaun]

Ignoring the fact that Chiltern will not have the stock for this (they will get refurbished 67s but they'll be needed to take over the majority of the London-Brum turns when the 168s are required to go to Oxford), another probably more practical option could be to extend a few services from Birmingham to Worcester to give Worcester some more London services. Stopping Rowley Regis/Stourbridge Junc/Kidderminster/WorcesterSH. It would take roughly the same time as going via Evesham/Oxford with FGW, Worcester is about 1 hour from Moor Street and that is on a stopping service! To go to Shrewsbury they would have to divert the Shrewsbury train after Solihull to go through New Street (where it would not be allowed to stop anyway), which would in turn remove a vital London-Birmingham service.

Have FGW ever considered dirverting their Hereford HSTs through Birmingham to get to Worcester when the Cotswold line has been closed? Or would there be too many pathing difficulties? They're definitely cleared that way, XC HSTs sometimes go through Stourbridge on diversions...

 

[Class172]

I have restrained myself from ranting on.

Ignoring the fact that Chiltern will not have the stock for this (they will get refurbished 67s but they'll be needed to take over the majority of the London-Brum turns when the 168s are required to go to Oxford), another probably more practical option could be to extend a few services from Birmingham to Worcester to give Worcester some more London services. Stopping Rowley Regis/Stourbridge Junc/Kidderminster/WorcesterSH. It would take roughly the same time as going via Evesham/Oxford with FGW, Worcester is about 1 hour from Moor Street and that is on a stopping service! To go to Shrewsbury they would have to divert the Shrewsbury train after Solihull to go through New Street (where it would not be allowed to stop anyway), which would in turn remove a vital London-Birmingham service.

Have FGW ever considered dirverting their Hereford HSTs through Birmingham to get to Worcester when the Cotswold line has been closed? Or would there be too many pathing difficulties? They're definitely cleared that way, XC HSTs sometimes go through Stourbridge on diversions...

Excellent idea, it's so simple to extend Chiltern's services to Worcester (and Droitwich Spa ); The easiest to extend are the Kidderminster terminators.

It would also provide extra capacity into Birmingham as well as giving more London services.

 

[krisk]

If there was a good market for it then someone would have introduced a service a long time ago.

 

[Class172]

Not necessarily. It could have been easily overlooked.

 

[Proud Salopian]

Birmingham to Wrexham? Really? I disagree. There is a direct service every 2 hours taking 1h 36m. An Off-Peak return is £14.20 - quite a bargain! According to Google, driving also takes 1h 36m, with a distance of 70.5 miles. And according to "Choozer", on a 40mpg petrol car that would cost £22 return. So the car is more expensive, even though you have to concentrate the whole time!

And Shrewsbury to London? Perhaps. Annoyingly, the following option...

• Shrewsbury [07:46] to Crewe [08:24]
• Crewe [08:29] to London Euston [10:04]

...taking under 2h 20m is not permitted because Crewe has a ridiculous minimum connection time of 10 minutes! I really am starting to think that Shrewsbury to London connections should be centred around Crewe - not Wolverhampton.

I go via Crewe when travelling from Church Stretton to London. Strange when you think about it - it's the quickest route, despite going considerably north only to go south again.

 

[tbtc]

Ignoring the fact that Chiltern will not have the stock for this (they will get refurbished 67s but they'll be needed to take over the majority of the London-Brum turns when the 168s are required to go to Oxford), another probably more practical option could be to extend a few services from Birmingham to Worcester to give Worcester some more London services. Stopping Rowley Regis/Stourbridge Junc/Kidderminster/WorcesterSH. It would take roughly the same time as going via Evesham/Oxford with FGW,

Roughly half of the "fast" London - Oxford services extend to Worcester (or beyond to Great Malvern/ Hereford).

If/when the London - Oxford line is electrified then we have to:

1. Accept bi-mode IEP on those services
2. Accept that there will be diesels running (approx) 70 miles under the wires, which weakens the case for electrifying the route
3. Cut (at least) some of the direct trains

Now, if running Marylebone - Moor Street - Worcester (-Great Malvern - Hereford) is broadly comparable time-wise then you could do the third option and make up for it with a regular diesel service via Birmingham.

The other alternative is Paddington - Reading - Swindon - Cheltenham - Worcester - Great Malvern - Hereford (since the line from Swindon to Cheltenham won't be wired any time soon).

 

[Class172]

How about when the line to Oxford is electrified, all services along the Cotswold line are operated by 6 car Voyager EDMUs. Then the HSTs can be displaced to operate Marylebone-Snow Hill-Worcester services;they will never run under wires.

 

[anthony263]

How about when the line to Oxford is electrified, all services along the Cotswold line are operated by 6 car Voyager EDMUs. Then the HSTs can be displaced to operate Marylebone-Snow Hill-Worcester services;they will never run under wires.

well the hst mk's would need to be fitted with power doors, but would a hst actually be suitable?

That said i wouldnt mind riding a hst into Marylebone (Has that ever happened by the way?)

 

[Class172]

well the hst mk's would need to be fitted with power doors, but would a hst actually be suitable?

The HSTs would go on current Chiltern Mainline services. They would operate the current patterns but after Moor St they would call at Snow Hill, Smethwick Galton Bridge, Stourbridge Junction, Kidderminster, Droitwich Spa & Worcester Fgt St — not too unsuited to an HST.

Anyway we're veering dangerously off-topic here, feel free to use my old thread on a similar idea here if you want to continue.

 

[philjo]

I go via Crewe when travelling from Church Stretton to London. Strange when you think about it - it's the quickest route, despite going considerably north only to go south again.

Yes, I usually go that way to Church Stretton. Unfortunately the FCC semi fast cambridge service I need to get from home to Kings Cross means that you have to get the xx:10 Chester/Holyhead Voyager from Euston to Crewe rather than the xx:40 Manchester Pendo.
The new ATW stopping pattern means that you may now have to change again at Shrewsbury.

If you go via Birmingham you have to change at International, New Street or Wolverhampton & (though may be the same platform at New Street) & again at Shrewsbury but the connections at Shrewsbury are terrible as the trains just miss each other.

Going via Paddington & Newport some of the connections at Newport are now very tight with a 60 or 90 minute wait for the next one.


I think the best bet longer term for Shrewsbury would be to wire Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury & extend the Euston-Wolverhampton trains (perhaps alternate hours) to Shrewsbury. The LM stopper can then also be EMU operated.
If the hourly Cambrian service does start then the 2nd train needs to only run Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth & connect at Shrewsbury with the London train.

 

[splitfare]

Don't forget the [long-term] proposal to reopen the line between Wellington, Shropshire and Stafford which could provide a direct route from Shrewsbury to London without having to go anywhere near Birmingham.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%20documents/rus%20documents/route%20utilisation%20strategies/west%20midlands%20and%20chilterns/west%20midlands%20and%20chilterns%20rus%20consultation%20responses/s/shropshire%20and%20telford%20councils%20joint%20response%20.pdf

 

[tbtc]

I think the best bet longer term for Shrewsbury would be to wire Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury & extend the Euston-Wolverhampton trains (perhaps alternate hours) to Shrewsbury. The LM stopper can then also be EMU operated.

If the hourly Cambrian service does start then the 2nd train needs to only run Shrewsbury-Aberystwyth & connect at Shrewsbury with the London train.

I agree.

Maybe a half hourly service west of Wolverhampton, comprised of an hourly (slow) EMU from Birmingham, a bi-hourly (fast) London - Shrewsbury train and a bi-hourly (fast) Aberystwyth service? That'd mean a lot more seats overall.

Would also be good if the services were better co-ordinated - the "fast" ATW and "slow" LM ones end up within a few minutes of each other (which means fewer connections available at Wolverhampton/ Birmingham)

My problem with running Shrewsbury - London services via Stafford is that any additional WCML paths should be used for somewhere like Liverpool (and I don't think that there will be a lot of Voyagers on the southern WCML after electrification to Chester)

 

[splitfare]

My problem with running Shrewsbury - London services via Stafford is that any additional WCML paths should be used for somewhere like Liverpool (and I don't think that there will be a lot of Voyagers on the southern WCML after electrification to Chester)

Don't disagree but if this plan ever got off the ground then even a connection at Stafford (75 minutes from London at times) might be a quicker alternative than via BHM.

 

[TDK]

The journey time was a very big factor that contributed to the reason for closing the operation. If the journey time was 2.5 hours, I'm sure they'd still be going strong!

Rubbish, ehre is your evidence? Just second guessing again. WSMR were improving their passenger numbers and the times were coming down and they still closed. It was down to cost analysis on the part of DB in my opinion.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

This isn't the normal "90mph units wont work on a 100mph line" rubbish is it ? if it is, I'll ring up DB tomorrow and say sorry you can't run the binliner trains at 60mph as they dont fit...

Never said it wouldn't work but now ATW are a part of DB I very much doubt that DB will risk the PPM of Chiltern by even sugessting 90mph units on the Chilterns unless thay are commuter services already in place.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Birmingham to Wrexham? Really? I disagree. There is a direct service every 2 hours taking 1h 36m. An Off-Peak return is £14.20 - quite a bargain! According to Google, driving also takes 1h 36m, with a distance of 70.5 miles. And according to "Choozer", on a 40mpg petrol car that would cost £22 return. So the car is more expensive, even though you have to concentrate the whole time!

And Shrewsbury to London? Perhaps. Annoyingly, the following option...

• Shrewsbury [07:46] to Crewe [08:24]
• Crewe [08:29] to London Euston [10:04]

...taking under 2h 20m is not permitted because Crewe has a ridiculous minimum connection time of 10 minutes! I really am starting to think that Shrewsbury to London connections should be centred around Crewe - not Wolverhampton.

I work at Birmingham, it takes me 1hr 30m and it costs me 13.50 a day in diesel, if I catch the train I have to drive to the station, pay for a car park, get there allowing a 10 minute window and then travel from New Street to my place of work, total time 2 hours 10 minutes, this is based on fact as I do it every day.

 

[Proud Salopian]

The new ATW stopping pattern means that you may now have to change again at Shrewsbury.

Yeah the new timetable is pretty rubbish for Church Stretton especially with regard to connections at Shrewsbury or getting up to Crewe.

As for the electrification of Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton.. this needs to be done. Considering there's Shrewsbury (75,000 people) AND the Telford urban area (160,000 people and quickly growing) on a relatively short line off the electrified West Midlands network, you'd think there would be plans to do it by now. Really is stupid how such obvious routes are not invested in.

Thing is, Shrewsbury is only scheduled to have its semaphores replaced in the 2050s... I suspect that'll be when the electrification happens... BUT by then we may as well skip electrification and go straight to HMUs* in Shropshire!

*Hydrogen Multiple Units :P

 

[tbtc]

As for the electrification of Shrewsbury - Wolverhampton.. this needs to be done. Considering there's Shrewsbury (75,000 people) AND the Telford urban area (160,000 people and quickly growing) on a relatively short line off the electrified West Midlands network, you'd think there would be plans to do it by now. Really is stupid how such obvious routes are not invested in

I agree (and about Telford being significantly important), but at the moment you'd only be replacing an hourly DMU - unless some Birmingham - Wales services are cut at Shrewsbury (maybe a long service bi-hourly from Birmingham to Shrewsbury which splits for Holyhead and the Cambrian?)

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yeah the new timetable is pretty rubbish for Church Stretton especially with regard to connections at Shrewsbury or getting up to Crewe.

I was under the impression that whatever both Church Stretton and Craven Arms had lost as a result of the inclusion of both Nantwich and Whitchurch on the ATW Manchester to South Wales services, they had been compensated with by both these stations being added to the ATW North Wales to South Wales service. Was that only for the summer service or is it to be a permanent arrangement? I do take your point regarding the Crewe and Shrewsbury connections with regard to Church Stretton itself, as stated in your quote above, as the new arrangements have not helped those particular stated journeys.

 

[Proud Salopian]

I was under the impression that whatever both Church Stretton and Craven Arms had lost as a result of the inclusion of both Nantwich and Whitchurch on the ATW Manchester to South Wales services, they had been compensated with by both these stations being added to the ATW North Wales to South Wales service. Was that only for the summer service or is it to be a permanent arrangement? I do take your point regarding the Crewe and Shrewsbury connections with regard to Church Stretton itself, as stated in your quote above, as the new arrangements have not helped those particular stated journeys.

The problem is that whilst before there was a train calling at Church Stretton more or less every hour at a standard time and you could get reasonable connections at Shrewsbury. Now however there is a complete mess of a timetable for Church Stretton, with huge gaps (over 1 and a half hours at certain times of the day) and with trains going in all different directions, it's not so straightforward planning a train connection at Crewe for example.

 

[merlodlliw]

Why be bitter about the WAG Express, both will be going through Wrexham after December.....

and your source for this? also did you see Ceriog the Bard last evening on S4C (2030/2100)still on s4c player,great pics of Piccadilly station,

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I work at Birmingham, it takes me 1hr 30m and it costs me 13.50 a day in diesel, if I catch the train I have to drive to the station, pay for a car park, get there allowing a 10 minute window and then travel from New Street to my place of work, total time 2 hours 10 minutes, this is based on fact as I do it every day.[/QUOTE] TDK

Are you still driving the silver 67s. Also if you get a Birmingham ATW, its a 158 two coach, lucky if you get a seat.

Bob
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I always thought sending the Holyhead - Euston services through Shrewsbury would have been a good idea. I remember well being at Gobowen and seeing an HST coming through when there was a bomb scare at Crewe, and thinking, why can't these always come this way?

The service was tried, it never worked, and was binned along with the idea of sending the HSTs to St Pancras from Holyhead.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Has to be looked at in context of the poor service between Shrewsbury and Birmingham in that as some have already stated the LM Stopper follows the ATW semi fast only 16 behind from Shrewsbury and ahead by only 19 at New St.LM use 170's but unless your chilled about the longer journey time the service to many esp at the Shrewsbury end is only hourly. More people from Shrewsbury and Wellington go ATW than LM. The Cambrian trains especially have a high loading of people traveling beyond Shrewsbury, only a quarter of the 158's are refurbished and despite being diagrammed for 4 cars many trains still run as 2. Hence the overcrowding that is a reality despite allegedly there being 2 trains an a hour on the corridor.
The letters page of the Shropshire local daily paper and local MP's especially from Telford are always in uproar about ATW. Demand is suppressed because of it.

 

[TDK]

Are you still driving the silver 67s. Also if you get a Birmingham ATW, its a 158 two coach, lucky if you get a seat.

Bob
.

I do not travel to Birmingham by train, I hate travelling by trin then driving them and travelling back, as for the 158's they are the worst units I have ever had the mis-fortune to travel on especially the 07.44 Wrexham - New Street, anything earlier than this you have to change at Shrewsbury.

To answer your question, yes, I do still drive the silver 67's but not as much as I used to, it's mainly 168's these days.

Hope all is well Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

and your source for this?

No source, just deduction!! (I missed S4C last night).

 

[tsubaki]

Shrewsbury to Brum direct would solve most of the problems raised, no?

 

[Geezertronic]

Shrewsbury to Brum direct would solve most of the problems raised, no?

ATW serve Shrewsbury to Birmingham (International via New Street/Wolves) direct don't they?