Direct trains from Watford Junction to Stratford 14/1/2024

[Skimpot flyer]

Interesting to note that, due to engineering works at two locations, London Overground are running the Watford DC lines trains via Willesden Junction platforms 1 & 3 through Kensal Green Junction, and onwards to Stratford this Sunday.
There are no LO services between Willesden and Euston, or between Willesden and Shepherds Bush on the North London Line.
Is this a first ?
I know it isn’t unusual for trains to be terminated in the bay platform on occasion, using the link down from Kensal Rise, but has a Watford-Stratford service been run before?

 

[alholmes]

After Broad Street closed and the peak hour service became Watford Jn - Liverpool Street via the Graham Road curve, I recall there was one service in each of the morning and evening peaks that ran Watford - Stratford, presumably due to lack of capacity at Liverpool Street

 

[Kite159]

It's certainly unusual to have both services linked together. I presume it's just down to there being two sets of engineering works happening (Willesden Junction -> Euston & Willesden Junction High Level) at the same time which makes it easier to link them together to avoid having to turn back Watford services on platform 1 at Willesden.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

After Broad Street closed and the peak hour service became Watford Jn - Liverpool Street via the Graham Road curve, I recall there was one service in each of the morning and evening peaks that ran Watford - Stratford, presumably due to lack of capacity at Liverpool Street

Yes, I remember being on a train on the Graham Road curve, just for the novelty of doing a Highbury to Liverpool Street trip.
But didn’t those journeys go via South Hampstead, Primrose Hill and Camden Road?
I should have been clearer: has the use of Kensal Rise Junction for through Watford Junction - Stratford services ever been timetabled?
Four trains per hour on the Low Level - Kensal Rise route HAS to be a first

 

[alholmes]

Yes, I remember being on a train on the Graham Road curve, just for the novelty of doing a Highbury to Liverpool Street trip.
But didn’t those journeys go via South Hampstead, Primrose Hill and Camden Road?
I should have been clearer: has the use of Kensal Rise Junction for through Watford Junction - Stratford services ever been timetabled?
Four trains per hour on the Low Level - Kensal Rise route HAS to be a first

Yes, you’re correct - the services I mentioned were via Primrose Hill. I’m not aware of any regular timetabled services between Watford and Stratford via Kensal Rise Junction.

 

[Triumph]

Interesting to note that, due to engineering works at two locations, London Overground are running the Watford DC lines trains via Willesden Junction platforms 1 & 3 through Kensal Green Junction, and onwards to Stratford this Sunday.
There are no LO services between Willesden and Euston, or between Willesden and Shepherds Bush on the North London Line.
Is this a first ?
I know it isn’t unusual for trains to be terminated in the bay platform on occasion, using the link down from Kensal Rise, but has a Watford-Stratford service been run before?

The same 15 minute service is running today as well as tomorrow, however due to a track circuit defect near Headstone Lane nothing has been able to run north of Harrow for a few hours and now Network rail have a block on to try and rectify thee fault. The service is now terminating in the LL bay at Willesden Jun possibly until 1645.

In the late 60's early 70's there was always a morning train (Headcode B3) that ran at 0740ish from Watford Junction to Broad Street via Hampstead Heath not stopping at Brondesbury Pk, Kentish Town West, Cale Rd & Canonbury.
This was due to being formed of a 6 car and the station platforms were not long enough for 6 ars. It was also the only 6 car to run in service between Kensal Rise and Camden Road, However nothing ran in the return direction as this was withdrawn much earlier.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Interesting, @Triumph.
Just thought of something.
In order to obtain a ‘not via Zone 1’ fare, people travelling on Oyster/Contactless from Stratford or Highbury & Islington on London Overground to Harlesden or stations to Watford Junction need to tap on the pink reader(s) on the footbridge between the High and Low Level platforms at Willesden Junction.

Will a through journey today or tomorrow incur a default Via Zone 1 fare being charged, due to people not needing to change trains ?? @MikeWh ?

 

[JonathanH]

Is this all 378s today, or a mix of 378s and 710s?

Will a through journey today or tomorrow incur a default Via Zone 1 fare being charged, due to people not needing to change trains ??

It would be imagined that the answer is yes, because the pink reader requirement doesn't get dropped for one off different services.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Is this all 378s today, or a mix of 378s and 710s?


It would be imagined that the answer is yes, because the pink reader requirement doesn't get dropped for one off different services.

I’m currently on a 378 announced as ‘calling at all stations to Stratford’… but not naming the individual stops

 

[matt]

It is a mixture of 378s and 710s today

 

[CarrotPie]

It is a mixture of 378s and 710s today

Do 710s usually run on the NLL (apart from GOBLIN ECS)?

 

[Class15]

Do 710s usually run on the NLL (apart from GOBLIN ECS)?

Yes. Got one the other day on 2N51 17:08 Richmond - Stratford.

 

[nw1]

Reminds me of one occasion in September 2004 when there was engineering works at Portsmouth and the Southampton-Portsmouth stopper worked to Havant and then onto Waterloo as the '81' fast. Result was some unusual stock allocations on the '81', with one service formed of a single VEP. (this was just about still within the slam-door era).

Likewise the Eastleigh-Portsmouth stopper also worked to Havant and thence to Waterloo as the '82' semi-fast.

 

[swt_passenger]

Do 710s usually run on the NLL (apart from GOBLIN ECS)?

Yes definitely. The 710 thread in the rolling stock subforum has been discussing that exact question for the last couple of years. Although it‘s running late, a number of 710s were ordered specifically to release 378s from the NLL for use on extra services on the ELL.

 

[MikeWh]

Will a through journey today or tomorrow incur a default Via Zone 1 fare being charged, due to people not needing to change trains ?? @MikeWh ?

Yes. This will upset some people. If they want the cheaper fare they'll have to step back a service at Willesden.

 

[CarrotPie]

Yes. This will upset some people. If they want the cheaper fare they'll have to step back a service at Willesden.

Or apply for a refund.

 

[MikeWh]

Or apply for a refund.

Not convinced TfL will agree. Could be an interesting test case.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

A bemused young woman on my train from Harlesden looked up from her phone at Brondesbury and asked ‘when do we get to Queens Park?’
I explained that the train isn’t going to Euston, but she said she was hoping to get the tube from Queens Park to get to London Bridge (via Baker Street, I assume).
I advised her to change at West Hampstead and cross the road to the Jubilee Line station, and she would get there without any further changes of train.
People really do get so engrossed in their phones and don’t listen to announcements!!

 

[JMG1]

The same 15 minute service is running today as well as tomorrow, however due to a track circuit defect near Headstone Lane nothing has been able to run north of Harrow for a few hours and now Network rail have a block on to try and rectify thee fault. The service is now terminating in the LL bay at Willesden Jun possibly until 1645.

In the late 60's early 70's there was always a morning train (Headcode B3) that ran at 0740ish from Watford Junction to Broad Street via Hampstead Heath not stopping at Brondesbury Pk, Kentish Town West, Cale Rd & Canonbury.
This was due to being formed of a 6 car and the station platforms were not long enough for 6 ars. It was also the only 6 car to run in service between Kensal Rise and Camden Road, However nothing ran in the return direction as this was withdrawn much earlier.

Yes, this 6-car Watford - Broad Street via Hampstead Heath was an early 1960s short notice diversion of a Primrose Hill route train. Seemingly in response to the Richmond - Broad Street service being listed for closure in the Beeching Report, some very astute LM region managers devised a new timetable for this route. This reduced the service from about every 15 minutes to a strict 20 minutes interval. Timings were accelerated to take advantage of the performance of the 1957 BR units and all trains reduced to 3-cars. This enabled all the LMS 1927 units to be withdrawn without replacement. The one flaw in this ingenious scheme was that there was insufficient capacity for eastbound morning schools traffic (which included me) to Gospel Oak. The problem was recognised very quickly and was solved by diverting the Watford train to fill the 20 minutes gap at around 0845. I think the issue of 6-cars being too long for some platforms only arose later when, the new service having proved to be OK, opportunity was taken to shorten some platforms to reduce maintenance costs. However I'm open to correction on this latter point.

 

[cle]

This is fascinating (relatively speaking) as I had never heard about semi-fast services on the NLL, even if due to platform lengths (Anglia Crosslink aside)

Did any other such services, in the Broad St era, ever exist? Or interesting anomalies? I did wonder that Watford - Willesden - QP - Camden - Broad St, and similar services, were very long journeys on stopping services. But on the other hand, not that different to the extremities of a tube service.

I would love to see a Broad St timetable, or departure board picture - have not been able to see one.

 

[Triumph]

This is fascinating (relatively speaking) as I had never heard about semi-fast services on the NLL, even if due to platform lengths (Anglia Crosslink aside)

Did any other such services, in the Broad St era, ever exist? Or interesting anomalies? I did wonder that Watford - Willesden - QP - Camden - Broad St, and similar services, were very long journeys on stopping services. But on the other hand, not that different to the extremities of a tube service.

I would love to see a Broad St timetable, or departure board picture - have not been able to see one.

All the Broad Street to Watfords were either semi-Fast or fasts.
The headcodes used were:

B1 Euston - Watford
B2 Broad Street - Watford (Not stopping at Canonbury & Caledonian Road)
B3 Watford - Broad Street via Hampstead Heath (Not stopping at Brondesbury Park, Kentish Town West, Caledonian Road & Canonbury)
B4 Broad Street - Richmond (On Sundays not stopping at South Acton, Brondesbury Park, Kentish Town West, Caledonian Road & Canonbury as they were all closed) The sunday service ran every 15 minutes in the summer with 7 trains and every 30 minutes in the winter with 3 trains. So on Sundays you had a more frequent service than on Mon - Fri.
B5 Broad Street - Willesden Junction
B6 Broad Street - Watford (Not stopping at Canonbury, Highbury & I, Caledonian Road, Primose Hill, South Hampstead, Kilburn High Road, Kensal Green, Harlesden & Stonebridge Park)
B9 Watford Jun - Croxley Green
CY ECS to Croxley Depot

All the above were 3 car's except for the following:

B1 - 6 cars in the peak and on Saturday (not evenings)
B2 - mostly 6 car with a few 3 cars
B3 - 6 Car
B6 - 6 Car

Broad Street was a very interest departure board in the peak hour as you had the GN service as well, so there was about 12- 15 departures per hour.
The GN service was mainly 6 car Rolls Royce sets with a few 4/6 car Craven sets.

 

[cle]

Thank you for all of this.

So this one:
B6 Broad Street - Watford (Not stopping at Canonbury, Highbury & I, Caledonian Road, Primose Hill, South Hampstead, Kilburn High Road, Kensal Green, Harlesden & Stonebridge Park)

was Broad St - ? - Dalston - Camden Road - Queens Park - Willesden Junction - Wembley Central and stations to Watford? So cool. For someone living in Queens Park and working in the city, it might have been quite competitive.

Appreciate with today's frequencies, this couldn't exist - but fascinating all the same. I do think Camden Road platforms and the Primrose Hill link could have a bigger future though.

 

[Class 170101]

Appreciate with today's frequencies, this couldn't exist - but fascinating all the same. I do think Camden Road platforms and the Primrose Hill link could have a bigger future though.

The only way you might do that is if 4tph were diverted via Primrose Hill and the 4tph on the GOB were extended through to Willesden Jn High Level and beyond. But it would mean only a 4tph service via Kentish Town West and probably leave Euston unserved by DC services which given HS2 should be coming to Euston is probably unwise.

There simply isn't anymore room for extra services between Stratford and Willesden Jn on the NLL.

The combination worked last weekend as it looks like both routes to Richmond and Clapham Jn were closed along with Watford DC services south of Willesden Jn. (Did the Bakerloo Line operate into Central London?)

 

[leytongabriel]

Thank you for all of this.

So this one:
B6 Broad Street - Watford (Not stopping at Canonbury, Highbury & I, Caledonian Road, Primose Hill, South Hampstead, Kilburn High Road, Kensal Green, Harlesden & Stonebridge Park)

was Broad St - ? - Dalston - Camden Road - Queens Park - Willesden Junction - Wembley Central and stations to Watford? So cool. For someone living in Queens Park and working in the city, it might have been quite competitive.

Appreciate with today's frequencies, this couldn't exist - but fascinating all the same. I do think Camden Road platforms and the Primrose Hill link could have a bigger future though.

Yes Sundays you used to get crowds going to Kew Gardens which in those days had 1d turnstile admission and so was a cheap day out popular with Londoners