Disabled Tanyalee Davis - more rail travel woes.

[bnm]

As Tanyalee Davis has said numerous times this week, the experience she had at the hands of GWR is far from unique.

Yet again she has been badly let down by the UK's railways. Yesterday on arrival at York nobody turned up with a ramp to assist her in alighting. That is despite having booked assistance and having had the LNER guard confirm en route that it would be there for her on arrival. Added to that, prior to dispatch, platform staff told the guard that she had been assisted off the train. She hadn't been and was subsequently over carried to Darlington.

Yet another shameful indictment of the way the UK's railways treat disabled passengers. These are not isolated incidents. Week in, week out rail staff are failing in their duties toward the disabled. The problem is endemic.

I cannot emphasise how strongly I feel on this issue. Sadly I see no answer except to see TOCs in court, or in front of a Select Committee, answering for their actions in breaching disability legislation so frequently.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-norfolk-44910639

A comedian "humiliated" for using a train's disabled space for her mobility scooter has described another bad experience on the railways.

Tanyalee Davis was on her way to York for a gig and had contacted staff to help her get off the LNER train.

She waited by the door for a ramp for her mobility scooter, but no-one came and the train left York for Darlington.

Passengers alerted the guard who said station staff told him they had helped her off.

The guard was "mortified" and apologised, and despite a 30-minute round trip Ms Davis made it to her gig on Friday night.

 

[daikilo]

In this instance I think we can assume that the appropriate proceedures exist but were not carried out in the way they should have been, and I assume the staff at York can be considered to have admitted that. I assume the lady was entitled to delay-repay.

I am pretty sure the previous case on GWR was not covered by a specific proceedure with the result that individual interpretation was used. In this case I suggest the TOCs need to compare and adopt best practices or create new (compliant) ones.

Note: it would certainly help if the legal equivalence (or not) between a disability wheel-chair and a PRM mobility scooter is clarfied.

 

[Bungle965]

In this instance I think we can assume that the appropriate proceedures exist but were not carried out in the way they should have been, and I assume the staff at York can be considered to have admitted that. I assume the lady was entitled to delay-repay.

I am pretty sure the previous case on GWR was not covered by a specific proceedure with the result that individual interpretation was used. In this case I suggest the TOCs need to compare and adopt best practices or create new (compliant) ones.

Note: it would certainly help if the legal equivalence (or not) between a disability wheel-chair and a PRM mobility scooter is clarfied.

Isn't it a thing where by if booked assistance doesn't turn up the person is entitled to the cost of their ticket back?
Sam

 

[Esker-pades]

This is simply pants. There has to be a better system in place so that "Oh, I forgot" can't be a thing that allows a passenger's booked assistance to not happen.

 

[moleman212]

No doubt we will get usual faces on here who will say the passenger must be at fault since the railways and rail staff can't do wrong....ever.

The lady is entitled to a full refund for her journey since the booked travel assistance failed to materialise.

 

[TPO]

To be honest, rail travel is a bit of a lottery with any disability..... and not all disabilities are obvious.

What comes over in both these incidents Tanyalee highlights is how dependant on front-line staff members doing the "right thing" one can be- she gives a balanced picture in the BBC article, noting the staff who had done their best even where other aspects (the assistance not getting her off) failed.

Problem with this is, reading the previous posts about her situations, I was a bit disturbed about comments like "passing the attitude test"- does one have to be meek and submissive and grateful to the normals to be get any support? That's not equality! But I have noticed that when any "different" people (whether disabled, LGBT etc) are "out and proud" they generate a bunch of reaction in some places that suggests that being "different" is only acceptable if the "different" person remains meek and submissive. It's a funny thing, but while normals can feel superior by helping a "poor disabled person" they often react quite negatively when they realise the disabled person is in full possession of their faculties and is just as much an individual with a personality and aspirations as anyone else- and expects quite rightly to engage in how any necessary assistance and support (to be able to live equally in a society set up for the "normal" population) is provided. I'm afraid experience has given me rather an aversion to people who would do stuff to me rather than helping me do stuff- the number of people who think they know what I need but who are so very wrong has been surprisingly high over the past 40 years.

Also the "attitude test" does not take account of the challenges of living with disabilities that cause a different cognitive profile. As an autistic person, I find that my inability to read the body-language of neurotypicals is matched only by their inability to misread mine, even when they think they are doing just great at reading people chances are they are wrong with a neurodiverse person (no, I'm not feeling in the slightest bit aggressive nor am I drunk- just totally overwhelmed and bamboozled, due to input overload my brain has almost stopped processing incoming verbal language and my cognitive functioning is about to fail and just right now I'd really perfer to be hiding in a quiet dark corner.....). The "body language" signs can mean very different things when presented by a neurodiverse person as compared to a neurotypical.

Training and recognition of the importance of equalities and of stuff like this is really important. I remember a difficult trip on a GWR train a couple of years ago, where for various reasons I was seriously cognitively overloaded and flapping/panicking rather. A switched-on GWR train manager spotted this, and she approached me- and was brilliant. Whether through training by GWR or otherwise, she obviously read the situation correctly, and the support she gave me was massively helpful. Given my state at the time, I didn't get her name- which I regret as it would have been great to be able to tell her employer how brilliant she had been and how much it helped. But in different circumstances, a less informed train manager could well have read the situation differently and I might have got into bother without realising- certainly it's far from unknown for that to happen to autistic people, particularly young chaps.

It would be great if the TOCs could be more proactive with this; albeit in a society where hostility to disabled people has been fostered by the government for some years now, I'm not holding my breath. That said, the TUs do some great work on disability and equalities awareness, and in fairness, my experience of front-line train crew and directly employed station staff is generally positive in that regard- I wonder if that's sometimes a reflection of good work by RMT/TSSA rather than the employer though?

TPO

 

[attics26]

the one and only positive was the amusing Ms Davis got to meet the lovely staff at Darlington and indeed we got to meet her, and lovely she was

 

[TPO]

This is simply pants. There has to be a better system in place so that "Oh, I forgot" can't be a thing that allows a passenger's booked assistance to not happen.

Spot on. Although I suspect that starts with the TOCs actually employing enough staff so that things are less easily overlooked, and not too rushed; sensible dwell times would help too........ (yes, it does take a while to unload a rammed Voyager especially on a station with a curved platform and high cant so the gap between train/platform is humungous, travellers to Bristol Parkway alighting from a south-bound Voyager will know what I mean.........)

I do wonder in this case if the assistance team was helping someone else and they didn't realise someone had been missed....? That would account for the staff thinking the person have been assisted off i.e. they had assisted someone- the wrong person though!. (Need to know why- otherwise how can they make sure it doesn't happen again?)

TPO

 

[Darandio]

No doubt we will get usual faces on here who will say the passenger must be at fault since the railways and rail staff can't do wrong....ever.

I cannot see how anyone could possibly try and claim this. Mind you, if people weren't baiting each other in the first place...

 

[daikilo]

There is a PDF on the LNER website which states that if there are problems then, upon being made aware of it, an investigation will be made and appropriate compensation paid. I don't see any specific reference to a full reimbursement being on offer.

 

[InterCity:125]

At bristol temple meads I see staff alway respect and help disabled travellers; whether they’ve booked it or not!

 

[harz99]

Not seeking to lessen the obvious difficulties when this happens, but I wonder how robust the assistance booking system is these days? Under the DPRS system that was around in BR days, a major fault was that any number of assistance bookings could be made for the same day and similar times at any given station. At the larger stations with multiple arrivals/departures/platforms at very close times this often lead to an impossible situation for the limited numbers of staff performing assistance duties.

And again not to lessen what happened, but it was what is probably the busiest day of the year for large stations being the start of the school summer break, and not helped by train failure and cancellations.

It's very easy to see everything black and white and jump one way or the other according to your personal views, but the reality is not always so straightforward. Further investigation is required here I think.

 

[InterCity:125]

It depends what assistance the passenger needs, some (help off/onto the train for blind people or wheelchair users and the like) I’ve seen performed by train staff.

 

[Brissle Girl]

BNM suggests this is another shameful indictment as to the way railways treat disabled customers. I'd suggest this incident, unlike the previous one, is simply a cock up, where one or more employees trying to do their job properly made a mistake. These things happen, and unfortunately disabled passengers, who by their nature will need more personal handling, will always be more prone to this sort of situation.

I've made lots of mistakes in my career, and I'm sure most people have too. Let's try and keep this incident in proportion, although clearly happening to the same person and so soon after the previous incident demonstrates that the industry does need to try harder.

 

[Mag_seven]

Is it not possible to station a dispatcher at the point where the disabled door will stop for all arrivals just in case?

 

[LowLevel]

At bristol temple meads I see staff alway respect and help disabled travellers; whether they’ve booked it or not!

It will go wrong there as it does everywhere at some point unfortunately. I'd love to wave the magic wand and fix the problem as it's one of the more embarrassing failures on the part of the railway to have to deal with and it can be terrifying and difficult to handle for the passengers involved.

I try my best as a guard to mitigate it but some times things happen.

My standard method of work for passenger assistance is as follows, whether it's me helping them on board or a colleague.

Greet them

Ask them where they're going to, if they have any connections and what help they need.
Help them board the train and settle them into their seat or space. If they're confined to their chair explain where the call for aid is and how it operates (that'll it make an announcement throughout the train for me to attend and that I can talk to them remotely from a cab if required) if relevant.

Phone their destination if manned whether booked or not and whether the origin say they will or not.

Write their location on the train and alighting station on my job card.

On arrival head to a position where I can see that assistance has been provided and if it doesn't look like it has intervene myself, help the person to a safe place to wait and contact the station staff to ensure they're en route before leaving.

It's a belt and braces approach which involves a fair bit of double handling and additional work for me (I once had a party of 14 visually impaired people plus dogs board my train going to different destinations. I was on the phone for ages!).

It is however the only way I've found to make totally sure that nothing goes wrong.

Even then I've made phone calls and had no one appear and on investigating they've been distracted by a person falling down the stairs or other similar unfortunate incident which has caused them to forget.

The guard can be the most useful part of the equation here because they should always be available to mop up any issues.

 

[AlterEgo]

BNM suggests this is another shameful indictment as to the way railways treat disabled customers. I'd suggest this incident, unlike the previous one, is simply a cock up, where one or more employees trying to do their job properly made a mistake. These things happen, and unfortunately disabled passengers, who by their nature will need more personal handling, will always be more prone to this sort of situation.

I've made lots of mistakes in my career, and I'm sure most people have too. Let's try and keep this incident in proportion, although clearly happening to the same person and so soon after the previous incident demonstrates that the industry does need to try harder.

This happens way too frequently to write it off as just human error. Disabled customers aren’t prioritised properly and are usually treated as an operational problem than a person, in my experience.

 

[Jamm]

Equality Act 2010 allows for compensation under 'injury to feelings' - the amount given is variable depending on how severe is the incident.

I sincerely encourage anyone involved to investigate this option (preferably with a lawyer) if they've been let down more than once.

Mistakes happen, but lessons are only learnt if there's an incentive to do so.

 

[bramling]

No doubt we will get usual faces on here who will say the passenger must be at fault since the railways and rail staff can't do wrong....ever.

Things go wrong in life, whether one is able-bodied or disabled.

 

[LAX54]

Looks like from what she has said that she was expected, but for some reason missed, and they have acknowledged this. and have said sorry, and of course there could have been a multitude of reasons, whether we get to find out, is another story,
Travelling disabled is not good on whatever mode of transport you choose, whenever I can persuade my wife to come on holiday abroad, the Airports and (some) Airlines are really really poor, well more than poor ...abysmal !

 

[LAX54]

Equality Act 2010 allows for compensation under 'injury to feelings' - the amount given is variable depending on how severe is the incident.

I sincerely encourage anyone involved to investigate this option (preferably with a lawyer) if they've been let down more than once.

Mistakes happen, but lessons are only learnt if there's an incentive to do so.

Try that one with B.A... they will / do laugh their socks off !

 

[AlterEgo]

Try that one with B.A... they will / do laugh their socks off !

They probably will because they are not responsible for the assistance provided. It’s the airport you need to sue.

 

[PHILIPE]

There was an occasion some years ago when wheelchair bound Dame Tanni Grey Thompson, a Paralympic and Disability Rights Campaigner who arrived at Kings Cross on a GNER service past midnight and her booked assistance failed to appear and could find nobody to get her attention. She had to try and manoueverher chair and "jump" it with her in it onto the platform but fortunately somebody appeared (not the booked assistance) and helped her to alight. A straight answer from the TOC regarding the absence of her booked assistance was never forthcoming

 

[Jamm]

Things go wrong in life, whether one is able-bodied or disabled.

No fair if the disabled gets more things to go wrong in their life than able-bodied person.

 

[Essan]

I have always been very impressed by the efficiency of staff in helping passengers - and of other passengers assisting as well

There are always exceptions.

But as with many things, we only hear about the one time it goes wrong, not the hundred times it works to perfection

 

[Jamm]

I have always been very impressed by the efficiency of staff in helping passengers - and of other passengers assisting as well

There are always exceptions.

But as with many things, we only hear about the one time it goes wrong, not the hundred times it works to perfection

But then there are also many other cases like it, just that it either goes unreported or it doesn't get in the newspapers.

 

[pt_mad]

This happens way too frequently to write it off as just human error. Disabled customers aren’t prioritised properly and are usually treated as an operational problem than a person, in my experience.

I think part of reason why this may happen occasionally may be partly down to the huge demand for the assistance service. Much of which is booked by passengers with disabilities. And rightly so of course. But also a great deal of which is booked under the heading 'elderly luggage help' or 'mobility impaired, non disabled'

Now we're not to judge who is most in need of limited help at smaller, medium or extra large stations but probably passengers with disabilities are going to need it as an absolute essential in order to travel. There are a great deal of elderly passenger who book it because their cases are difficult to manage. And it's bookable in this case under mobility impaired or non disabled luggage help on lists. So they are taking up an offer that available to book, but obviously it's going to impact on the demand and staff are inevitably going to be limited in supply to some degree.

Even if there were say 5 members of staff at evey station with two platforms, if everyone travelling who was elderly decided to book this service under the 'elderly' heading, as is their right under the current system, the staff simply wouldnt cope with the demand. And they are going to have to juggle their time between any different bookings. The list may be long and complicated and impossible to remember at the start of the shift. Trains may be late and the order of the assists is going to change from the correct order on the list. And non booked assists may be phoned in to the station which need to be done alongside already booked ones which could be at the same time. And inevitably mistakes will be made as with every task in every workforce.

But I can't help thinking that with the current ageing population, that legitimately allowing anyone who is elderly to book assistance under the banner elderly is going to lead to a potentially massive, massive demand. I can only imagine how many elderly people travel with a case every day of the week. Now if every one of them chose to book assistance, as is their right under the current system, the assistance system would be over run and would fail due to over demand. In theory it's only the fact that the vast majority of passengers are not aware they can book assistance for their luggage if they are elderly that stops the system from coming to a dead halt due to being impossible to meet all the requests.

Also let's note that the booking system does not limit the amount of assistance which can be booked for any one station on the same day for the same trains or for similar times on different trains.
So you may have one day where there are just a handful of assists. Then the next you might have say 4 within 10 mins over 3 different trains and only one member of staff available. The system doesn't seem to recognise this and could potentially book six in for one train for one member of staff. And then mistakes become more likely.

 

[EM2]

Is it not possible to station a dispatcher at the point where the disabled door will stop for all arrivals just in case?

Depending on the stock, you could have three such locations, and if the customer doesn't need a ramp (e.g. they're visually impaired) they may not be in the disabled space anyway.

 

[6Gman]

I have always been very impressed by the efficiency of staff in helping passengers - and of other passengers assisting as well

There are always exceptions.

But as with many things, we only hear about the one time it goes wrong, not the hundred times it works to perfection

I've seen quite a few such assists recently and they've all seemed to go well. I wonder what the percentage failure rate actually is?

 

[Jamm]

*long post*

Whether it's a human error or systematic error, Equality Act 2010 does not make a distinction.

If TOCs are making too many mistakes due to their system being unreliable, then they should review the system and see what areas they can improve upon.