Hello, I discovered only yesterday that Hertford North is 'enabled' for Oyster. I have a PAYG oyster card with Senior Railcard added. I made a journey this afternoon from Hertford North to Warren St, changing at Highbury & Islington. My Oyster has been charged £6.30. I've been buying tickets regularly for this journey from my usual retailer (Avanti app) and usually pay twice that if not more. Looking up the fare tonight it's quoted as £11.00. Trainsplit are quoting £8 something. Please can anyone explain what is going in here and am I right to feel totally ripped off until now... I really don't understand the UK fare system and in spite of travelling over 20,000 miles a year on business how is an ordinary user expected to get best value from an opaque system such as we have here. Forgive me if I'm just asking too much but I'm feeling pretty aggrieved about this revelation stumbled on with this particular journey. Thank-you...
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Discrepancies in our fares system
- Thread starter Miken
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
miklcct
On Moderation
Because Oyster and traditional tickets are two separate systems with totally different rules and fare setting process.
Llandudno
Established Member
- Joined
- 25 Dec 2014
- Messages
- 2,205
Discrepancies in our fares system …. This could be a rather long thread!!
Wallsendmag
Established Member
Mcr Warrior
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 8 Jan 2009
- Messages
- 11,871
Is this possibly just an example of a difference between Oyster fares and non-Oyster fares, for the exact same journey?
It is important to note here that Oyster PAYG is giving a discount to the traditional fare structure for single journeys, as that is the basis of its pricing.
There will be return journeys from Hertford North to Warren Street which are cheaper on the 'paper' fare structure, for example using a discounted travelcard when returning in the evening peak, or travelling at the weekend.
There will be return journeys from Hertford North to Warren Street which are cheaper on the 'paper' fare structure, for example using a discounted travelcard when returning in the evening peak, or travelling at the weekend.
This is quite complicated and it depends on whether you're making a single or return journey. Oyster fares were introduced a few years ago at Hertford and are highly convenient, and can be cheaper for many passengers. Oyster operates 'single leg pricing' with singles generally around half the price of a return. Paper tickets use the historical pricing structure. The problem is how do you simplify it without increasing fares for those paying the cheapest fares while at the sae time being revenue neutral for the train operators....
Hertford North to Warren Street:
Oyster Peak Single £12:30 (applies for touching in at Hertford between 06:30 and 09:30 Mon-Fri). No railcard discount
Oyster Off Peak Single £9.60 or £6.30 with railcard
Warren Street to Hertford North
Oyster Peak Single £12.30 (applies for touching in at Warren Street between 06:30 and 09:30 and 16:00 and 19:00 Mon-Fri). No railcard discount
Oyster Off Peal Single £9.60 or £6.30 with railcard
Paper tickets:
Hertford North to London Underground Zones 1-2 (this allows one return journey on the underground to Warren Street):
Anytime Day Return 27.90
Anytime Day Single £17.20 or £11.35 with railcard (railcard cannot be used in the morning peak)
Off Peak Day Return £22.00 or £14.50 with railcard (no evening restriction on this ticket)
It is worth noting that in some cases a One Day Travelcard, which offers unliited travel on trains, underground and buses in London Zones 1-6 is normally only a little more and at certain times can be cheaper:
Anytime £28.60
Off Peak £22.00 or £14.50 with railcard (no evening restrictions)
Super Off Peak £21.40 or £14.10 with railcard (evening restrictions apply)
Weekend Day £16.90 or £11.15 with railcard (a bargain!)
If I was making this journey I'd consider purchasing a ticket from Hertford North to London Terminals. This is valid only as far as Kings Cross or St Pancras by changing at Finsbury Park so you'd need to walk to Warren Street but this takes no longer than 15 minutes (officially it's also valid with a paper ticket between Highbury & Islington and Kings Cross St Pancras on the Victoria Line as well under the inter-availability rule but it won't work the ticket barriers at Kings Cross St Pancras underground station and you'd need to be let through manually). Prices for this are:
Oyster Peak Single £9.50
Oyster Off Peak Single £6.90 or £4.55 with a railcard
Time restrictions same as above
Paper tickets:
Anytime Day Return £21.10
Off Peak Day Return £15.20 or £10.00 with railcard (no evening restrictions)
Super Off Peak Day Return £14.70 or £9.70 with railcard (evening restrictions apply)
Weekend Day £10.60 or £6.95 with railcard
Hertford North to Warren Street:
Oyster Peak Single £12:30 (applies for touching in at Hertford between 06:30 and 09:30 Mon-Fri). No railcard discount
Oyster Off Peak Single £9.60 or £6.30 with railcard
Warren Street to Hertford North
Oyster Peak Single £12.30 (applies for touching in at Warren Street between 06:30 and 09:30 and 16:00 and 19:00 Mon-Fri). No railcard discount
Oyster Off Peal Single £9.60 or £6.30 with railcard
Paper tickets:
Hertford North to London Underground Zones 1-2 (this allows one return journey on the underground to Warren Street):
Anytime Day Return 27.90
Anytime Day Single £17.20 or £11.35 with railcard (railcard cannot be used in the morning peak)
Off Peak Day Return £22.00 or £14.50 with railcard (no evening restriction on this ticket)
It is worth noting that in some cases a One Day Travelcard, which offers unliited travel on trains, underground and buses in London Zones 1-6 is normally only a little more and at certain times can be cheaper:
Anytime £28.60
Off Peak £22.00 or £14.50 with railcard (no evening restrictions)
Super Off Peak £21.40 or £14.10 with railcard (evening restrictions apply)
Weekend Day £16.90 or £11.15 with railcard (a bargain!)
If I was making this journey I'd consider purchasing a ticket from Hertford North to London Terminals. This is valid only as far as Kings Cross or St Pancras by changing at Finsbury Park so you'd need to walk to Warren Street but this takes no longer than 15 minutes (officially it's also valid with a paper ticket between Highbury & Islington and Kings Cross St Pancras on the Victoria Line as well under the inter-availability rule but it won't work the ticket barriers at Kings Cross St Pancras underground station and you'd need to be let through manually). Prices for this are:
Oyster Peak Single £9.50
Oyster Off Peak Single £6.90 or £4.55 with a railcard
Time restrictions same as above
Paper tickets:
Anytime Day Return £21.10
Off Peak Day Return £15.20 or £10.00 with railcard (no evening restrictions)
Super Off Peak Day Return £14.70 or £9.70 with railcard (evening restrictions apply)
Weekend Day £10.60 or £6.95 with railcard
I'd suggest that a significant amount of "anomalies" in the London area are due to TfL's policy of charging significantly more for paper tickets than using Contactless or Oyster, combined with all fares inside the London Travelcard Area being set centrally. So, apart from a few early adopters, a journey such as Mortlake (Zone 3) to Twickenham (Zone 5) costs the same as one from Hornsey (Zone 3) to New Barnet (Zone 5) on the other side of London.
Expect more anomalies to be created when "Project Oval" (the DfT plan to extend Contactless to around 230 additional stations in the South East) goes live, as one of the requirements is that paper tickets in the extended area are the same price as using Contactless, so as not to disadvantage people without a bank account, Children, and Railcard holders (amongst others), given that Contactless doesn't (currently) support discounted fares.
Expect more anomalies to be created when "Project Oval" (the DfT plan to extend Contactless to around 230 additional stations in the South East) goes live, as one of the requirements is that paper tickets in the extended area are the same price as using Contactless, so as not to disadvantage people without a bank account, Children, and Railcard holders (amongst others), given that Contactless doesn't (currently) support discounted fares.
Oyster and contactless PAYG fares are priced on a 'single leg' basis, i.e. such that two single fares broadly speaking cost the same as a paper return ticket.
However, because both the time restrictions and ability to discount fares using your Railcard differ between paper tickets and PAYG fares, there are some situations in which PAYG is cheaper (e.g. making a journey where you're not returning the same day), and others where paper fares are cheaper (e.g. making a day trip on a weekend or Bank Holiday).
The prices you're seeing on NRE and TrainSplit will relate to paper fares. NRE does state what the PAYG fare is for comparative purposes, but retailers can't sell such tickets - they can only be obtained using an Oyster or contactless card. TrainSplit is likely showing a cheaper fare because it's coming up with a split ticket combination that's less than the through fare.
GTR's KeyGo PAYG offering provides a half-way house between these two, as it charges you either the paper or PAYG fare - including Railcard discounts - whichever is the cheaper for your travel patterns. Unfortunately it's only valid on GTR services (other than GWR between Redhill and Dorking), and so you'd have to use Oyster or contactless PAYG (likely at additional cost) if you're combining a GTR leg with an Underground one.
As ever, to say that the fares system is full of anomalies would be an understatement!
However, because both the time restrictions and ability to discount fares using your Railcard differ between paper tickets and PAYG fares, there are some situations in which PAYG is cheaper (e.g. making a journey where you're not returning the same day), and others where paper fares are cheaper (e.g. making a day trip on a weekend or Bank Holiday).
The prices you're seeing on NRE and TrainSplit will relate to paper fares. NRE does state what the PAYG fare is for comparative purposes, but retailers can't sell such tickets - they can only be obtained using an Oyster or contactless card. TrainSplit is likely showing a cheaper fare because it's coming up with a split ticket combination that's less than the through fare.
GTR's KeyGo PAYG offering provides a half-way house between these two, as it charges you either the paper or PAYG fare - including Railcard discounts - whichever is the cheaper for your travel patterns. Unfortunately it's only valid on GTR services (other than GWR between Redhill and Dorking), and so you'd have to use Oyster or contactless PAYG (likely at additional cost) if you're combining a GTR leg with an Underground one.
As ever, to say that the fares system is full of anomalies would be an understatement!
Has that been announced? That would significantly increase fares for people currently using some 'paper' tickets as 'Hadders' points out above. It is not clear to me that such a scenario wouldn't itself cause anomalies.
It was floated in the DfT's 2019 consultation on extending PAYG, and I'm sure I've heard it somewhere more recently but can't find a link.
The obvious approach would be to halve the existing Anytime and Off-Peak Day Return fares to replace existing Singles that may only be 10p cheaper than the Return...but that's probably far too simple, so they'll probably do something completely different.
Haywain
Veteran Member
- Joined
- 3 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 15,263
My understanding, from meetings I attended, is that paper tickets will continue as they are. This would result in some paper fares being better and some contactless fares being better. As suggested above, KeyGo would be far better if only it could be extended.
- Status