Discussion About First Class When a Gatwick Express Branded Train Operates a Southern Branded Service

[Harratt4]

Split from:

HELP! Can anyone advise me on how best to contest a penalty fare issued by Govia Thameslink

Hi all, I was issued with a penalty fare on the Gatwick Express just before christmas. Can anyone advise my how best to frame an appeal, please? My colleague and I were travelling from London to Brighton for work We both separately purchased off-peak return tickets on the Trainline.com and...

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I’ve certainly been on a Gatwick express with an on board supervisor / guard / whatever the correct title is. In fact I sought her out as my phone was about to die and I needed her to check my ticket before it did as I didn’t have my cable with me.

As an aside (just because I’m not sure it requires its own thread - but tell me otherwise) what’s the position regarding when a GX painted train is operating a Southern service and first class?

All the signage says Gatwick Express at the top but it clearly isn’t a Gatwick Express train. Are we supposed to suspend our disbelief that the top of the sign with the branding on is inaccurate, but the bits underneath are in fact correct?

 

[WesternLancer]

I’ve certainly been on a Gatwick express with an on board supervisor / guard / whatever the correct title is. In fact I sought her out as my phone was about to die and I needed her to check my ticket before it did as I didn’t have my cable with me.

As an aside (just because I’m not sure it requires its own thread - but tell me otherwise) what’s the position regarding when a GX painted train is operating a Southern service and first class?

All the signage says Gatwick Express at the top but it clearly isn’t a Gatwick Express train. Are we supposed to suspend our disbelief that the top of the sign with the branding on is inaccurate, but the bits underneath are in fact correct?

Afaik the rules on first class seating in Southern trains are exactly the same. You need a first class ticket to sit in first class seat

So it does not make it any different what the train livery it is painted in is.

The only exception to this on the Brighton line is Thameslink trains where the rear first class seating area only is declassified and available to standard class ticket holders. There is scrolling info on the roof mounted display inside that compartment that informs passengers of this. Scrolls every few minutes along with other info.

 

[Harratt4]

Afaik the rules on first class seating in Southern trains are exactly the same. You need a first class ticket to sit in first class seat

So it does not make it any different what the train livery it is painted in is.

The only exception to this on the Brighton line is Thameslink trains where the rear first class seating area only is declassified and available to standard class ticket holders. There is scrolling info on the roof mounted display inside that compartment that informs passengers of this. Scrolls every few minutes along with other info.

Yes, but I was being slightly pedantic in that the signage about first class on that unit on the train is branded as Gatwick Express, but the actual service is a Southern one. Now we know GTR is very keen to pretend that GX and Southern are totally separate companies. That being the case, how could they argue that the branding bit of the sign should be disregarded, as it is not a GX service, but that the other information on it should be obeyed because that suits them and their revenue. It feels a bit like having your cake and eating it. But I apologise for dragging us off topic.

 

[jon0844]

How a train is branded and any confusion from using other stock (as is common with Thameslink and Great Northern branded trains being used on Great Northern services from Cambridge to King's Cross) is not comparable to the signage showing first class onboard. I suggest we ignore this comparison, even if it was tongue-in-cheek because it doesn't help the OP.

 

[Egg Centric]

How a train is branded and any confusion from using other stock (as is common with Thameslink and Great Northern branded trains being used on Great Northern services from Cambridge to King's Cross) is not comparable to the signage showing first class onboard. I suggest we ignore this comparison, even if it was tongue-in-cheek because it doesn't help the OP.

No, but being given a "not for gatwick express" penalty fare price on a gatwick express service very well might... while we consider that fare usable on gatwick express, is GTR going to use that as a defence?

 

[yorkie]

Some of the arguments made don't make any sense to me; I'll leave it to others to deal with that.

However, if anyone is wondering why GTR are charging "Not GX" fares, it's probably because if they charged the full amount, it could be disputed on the basis of being an overcharge. By charging the lowest fare that is permissible under the Ticketing Settlement Agreement (TSA) and National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT), they are safeguarding against a successful appeal.

GTR are very worried about losing the upcoming legal case, however this has no bearing on this particular dispute.

However, this is yet more evidence against GTR falsely arguing that their brand restrictions are legitimate; if they were, they'd not be afraid to charge the full "Any Permitted" amount when issuing Penalty Fares.

Also, there seems to be some confusion about Penalty Fares: train companies like GTR take the view that a Penalty Fare is a higher than normal fare, which is incurred by someone who made an "innocent mistake" and is not in any way an accusation of deliberate fare evasion, for which they would take the view that a prosecution is warranted. Therefore, when someone says "but I made an innocent mistake", the view of the company is "exactly; that's why we are charging you this expensive fare, rather than prosecuting you".

Whether or not it is appropriate that they act this way is up to each individual person to make up their own minds on, but the situation is what it is, and we can't change that; I'm sure we've had debates on the morals of Penalty Fares many times before.

Also, a reminder that the original dispute thread must remain directly relevant to the issue at hand and that anything that is misleading, unhelpful or not directly on topic cannot be posted in such threads; if anyone has any questions about this then they should use the 'Contact Us' form, using the link at the bottom of the page.

 

[Harratt4]

Mea culpa! Thank you for splitting it off to its own thread and apologies.

My point was basically (but I accept not applicable to the query originally posted) to use a scenario:

• Someone has a standard class ticket for, say victoria to Gatwick Airport that is not valid on GX trains
• The service is a service being operated as a "Southern", lets say, Victoria to Littlehampton.
• They got to the platform and the train was painted as a GX service (which has been happening more frequently in the past couple of weeks, I perceive) with GX branded signage inside.
• They sit in first class.
• A RPI gets on and said the passenger is getting a penalty fare or reported for prosecution for sitting in a 1st class area with a standard class ticket
• The RPI points out the signage that says "This area is reserved for first class ticket holders".
• The customer responds "well yes, but it also says this is a Gatwick Express service on that sign and it isn't, it is a southern service"

Would it then be reasonable for the RPI to say with a straight face to the customer: "well yes, you have to ignore that bit of the sign because it isn't applicable to this particular journey from Victoria to Gatwick Airport today, but you should not ignore the other bit of the sign that says this area is reserved for first class ticket holders." ?

Or are first class areas of GX branded trains automatically declassified because the signage applies to GX services as per the branding (which GTR claim to be important and they are separate companies) or first class restrictions continue to apply even though it quite clearly refers to GX services which the train in question is not.

I'm being slightly deliberately obtuse, because I won't disagree that "the ordinary person in the street" would probably recognise that first class means first class. But then I feel that GTR is also being slightly deliberately obtuse by saying trains branded as GX are different / better / more expensive except and passengers can't switch between gatwick express and southern services because they are separate companies (without a more expensive ticket) but they are the same company when it suits them to move their fleet around and passengers should ignore the differing branding "because it is all the same it is just the colour the trains are painted".

I also accept that I might need to get out more...

 

[Kite159]

1st class is 1st class, it doesn't matter what colour the train is painted.

Southern using the Gat Ex 387s on "Southern" services is nothing new, I can remember before Covid when it would be common in the evenings for the Victoria - Brighton 'Southern' services to be formed of Gatwick Express branded trains due to the timetable at the time. Likewiese do passengers get confused north of the river when a Thameslink 700 rocks up on a "Great Northern" branded service?

 

[yorkie]

@Joel Hills to expand upon my post.

I believe (but would welcome input from those more expert than me) that since you have apparently already been "accepted" into the appeals process and so it would be inequitable to deny you from taking it further now regardless of what time limits may have applied, you can take the following argument to the second appeal stage - where it will inevitably be rejected but then just retry it at the third stage.



Where this gets a bit more complex

There is an ongoing legal case where, in short, the ability of Govia Thameslink to differentiate between brands in this way is being questioned and the consensus of opinion of this forum is that it can't.

Why that's likely irrelevant or works in your favour

It's highly unlikely that that legal case is going to be settled any time soon. In the meantime, it is in GTR's interest to act as though it absolutely can make such routings and enforcing them - and if it is doing so it can hardly be charging you as though it suddenly can't, can it?*

*On the other hand if it decided to admit that it can charge you that way - then there will be a lot of posters here very interested in that

This could be useful from the point of view of exposing GTR's hypocracy; it could also assist the legal case. However, it is of no assistance to the OP's issue regarding getting out of the Penalty Fare.

From a personal point of view, yes I'd like to see the OP contact GTR and yes I'd like to see their answer, but it won't help their case.

Mea culpa! Thank you for splitting it off to its own thread and apologies.

My point was basically (but I accept not applicable to the query originally posted) to use a scenario:

• Someone has a standard class ticket for, say victoria to Gatwick Airport that is not valid on GX trains
• The service is a service being operated as a "Southern", lets say, Victoria to Littlehampton.
• They got to the platform and the train was painted as a GX service (which has been happening more frequently in the past couple of weeks, I perceive) with GX branded signage inside.
• They sit in first class.
• A RPI gets on and said the passenger is getting a penalty fare or reported for prosecution for sitting in a 1st class area with a standard class ticket
• The RPI points out the signage that says "This area is reserved for first class ticket holders".
• The customer responds "well yes, but it also says this is a Gatwick Express service on that sign and it isn't, it is a southern service"

Would it then be reasonable for the RPI to say with a straight face to the customer: "well yes, you have to ignore that bit of the sign because it isn't applicable to this particular journey from Victoria to Gatwick Airport today, but you should not ignore the other bit of the sign that says this area is reserved for first class ticket holders." ?

While this exposes the unfairness of how GTR behave and the ludicrous nature of their brand restrictions, I do not see how this negates the Penalty Fare. I do not agree with how GTR behave and am not in any way condoning their signage or actions. I would like to see you put these arguments to GTR; it is unlikely to have any effect in your case, but maybe your case could play a small part in helping to ensure a defeat for GTR in the impending legal case against them.

Or are first class areas of GX branded trains automatically declassified because the signage applies to GX services as per the branding (which GTR claim to be important and they are separate companies) or first class restrictions continue to apply even though it quite clearly refers to GX services which the train in question is not.

I personally would not take that view.

I'm being slightly deliberately obtuse, because I won't disagree that "the ordinary person in the street" would probably recognise that first class means first class. But then I feel that GTR is also being slightly deliberately obtuse by saying trains branded as GX are different / better / more expensive except and passengers can't switch between gatwick express and southern services because they are separate companies (without a more expensive ticket) but they are the same company when it suits them to move their fleet around and passengers should ignore the differing branding "because it is all the same it is just the colour the trains are painted".

I completely agree. I don't think any of this gets you out of the Penalty Fare, but if your aim is to help play a part in what I hope to be a very embarrassing defeat by GTR in the courts, then feel free to make these arguments. I am happy to proofread your correspondence (drop me a conversation message).

 

[Egg Centric]

. However, it is of no assistance to the OP's issue regarding getting out of the Penalty Fare.

I don't understand why not though. If the Penalty Fare hasn't been issued in accordance with regulations then is it not the case it ought to be cancelled? That would include issuing it at an incorrect fare - even if said error was in the passenger's favour. Now we can say the not Gatwick Express fare is actually the correct fare - but I don't see how it is that GTR can? And I imagine that the "independent" reviewer is going to read "not Gatwick Express" how it looks in plain English too.

(Appreciate that there also seemed to be deadline issues but it seems that the OP has had one appeal answered already - see post 10 - which to my mind negates them)

(Also note there are two different posters in this thread which may confuse things, I am referring strictly to @Joel Hills not @Harratt4 )

 

[BazingaTribe]

1st class is 1st class, it doesn't matter what colour the train is painted.

Southern using the Gat Ex 387s on "Southern" services is nothing new, I can remember before Covid when it would be common in the evenings for the Victoria - Brighton 'Southern' services to be formed of Gatwick Express branded trains due to the timetable at the time. Likewiese do passengers get confused north of the river when a Thameslink 700 rocks up on a "Great Northern" branded service?

Agreed. Reading Buses took on some old Stagecoach-branded vehicles when they took over one of Stagecoach's old routes, but I couldn't have used my Stagecoach season ticket on them and saved having to pay the Reading Bus fare separately.

The only possible grounds for any confusion would be if one TOC branded their first and standard classes differently and a train with, say, 'Premier' and 'Economy' was used on the route instead. But it's absolutely potty to try and claim that first class branding on one set doesn't mean that you have to have a first class ticket when it's being used on a different route to normal.

The other thing mentioned on the other thread was the 'man on the street' test, better known in law as the 'reasonable person' test. This principle is a practical measure to offset any legal chicanery and abstract arguments that might produce very strange results (similar to how intent is inferred from actions in order to ensure people can't say 'I didn't MEAN to do it' and thus escape justice). It means that where there's a failure of someone to perform a duty they have in law -- in this case having a first class ticket in order to sit in first class -- the judge or magistrate can make that decision based on what someone adhering to the law would probably do in the circumstances established.

I also wonder how many people who aren't dedicated rail enthusiasts would know about the GTR/GX controversy. While it's certainly something that needs to be pursued, your average traveller wouldn't really be making that kind of decision when trying to get from A to B and thus the arguments about whether or not the right train was used simply won't have any impact on what happens to the OPs in this situation. Civil disobedience has consequences that make someone into a martyr, but if you're going down that route, then you probably want to target your wilful act by e.g. trying to use a GTR ticket on GX, rather than doing something at a tangent to the actual dispute that most 'reasonable' people would not do.

 

[Kite159]

Or even the times when LNER/Virgin East Coast used to use a East Midlands HST for certain services between London & Leeds and even a XC HST set. I doubt they will look too favourable on someone sitting in 1st class saying 'it says East Midlands Trains on the side'