Discussion About What Action Should be Taken Against Passengers With Expired Railcards

[Adam Williams]

Every year up to now I've had an e-mail informing me that my railcard was due to expire, but it's very easy to miss an e-mail, especially if it happens to go into the 'wrong' file. So people are bound to be caught out by a railcard expiry.

The solution to this is simple: automatic renewal/railcard as a subscription.

If your retailer of choice doesn't support it as an option, I would suggest shopping around and finding one that does - because the retailers that care about passenger experience and protecting their customers from very significant potential financial (and/or criminal) consequences will have gone to the lengths of implementing it.

While I am discussing railcards, there is no reason for independent retailers to be prevented from retailing the full range of railcards and today's restrictions imposed by RDG disproportionately affect disabled passengers and e.g. armed forces veterans who have the choice of retailer taken away from them. I believe every passenger should be able to choose their preferred retailer for all of their ticket purchasing and railcard needs.

 

[RyanOPlasty]

Perhaps the ticketing sites should have the option to save a railcard expiry date for a user, or if one is not recorded, pop up text at the point of payment reminding the user to check their railcard is still valid.

I know sometimes tickets are bought for other people, but this reminder at least would be helpful to some people.

 

[guilbert]

Point is whose responsibility is it to check?

...

I don’t recall any random roadside checks on any of the above but if I’m found without after an incident I know whose responsibility it’ll be…

If I get caught with an invalid / expired railcard it's my responsibility but if I get away with it for 6 months because they can't be bothered to check I'd suggest the railway needs to start taking some responsibility.
There are certainly ANPR checks but if you're caught it's normally just a fixed penalty, they don't launch an investigation into whether you might have been speeding for instance.

As a car owner, I'm under no illusion of the consequences if on a public road wihhout tax: a fine up to £1,000 or 5 times the amount of tax due, whichever is the greater; and the car can be impounded, with increasing daily fee for its release.

The normal penalty for not paying Vehicle Excise Duty is an £80 fixed penalty, I would suggest that is about the level which would provide sufficient deterrent to pay when challenged whilst still being proportionate.

 

[jfollows]

As for Two Together railcards - scrap them and make the fares available to all, just like a Northern Duo.

Hard to disagree, if I have a valid Two Together railcard of course I use it, but the Northern Duo is a few pennies more for two of us, with similar restriction. I only buy a Two Together railcard because it saves money elsewhere, such as on Avanti advance tickets to London. So if Avanti did a “duo” I wouldn’t bother. Someone gets the extra £30 or whatever, though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: Yesterday at 14:38 ==

But I agree that it’s my responsibility to check and I do, I don’t think it’s hard to do, but clearly some people do. I know when my railcards expire, I have a note in my calendar, and I renew them when I need to. Don’t penalise me for the incompetence of others, please!

 

[WolvertonWorks]

#2: On the other hand every railcard has the expiry date clearly stated on the front of it, whether physical or digital.

Slightly off topic but relevant story – a friend and her husband, 70s, intelligent, very well travelled but usually to non-European destinations, turned up at the airport earlier this week for a flight to the Canaries and were denied boarding because his passport was now into the “extra” period that one used to be able to add to UK passports when renewing them. Ie it was more than 10 years since the date the passport was issued. My point being that the ten-year expiry date was clearly shown on his passport, which had been used earlier this year, but that hadn’t reminded him that he needed to renew his passport before this trip.

#10: No, guards a just well aware that it already takes passengers longer enough to completely ignore the ongoing ticket check, waiting until the guard is right next to them before they even bother trying to remember/find which app they used to purchase the ticket, open and wait for the app to load, find the correct journey in the app, wait for the ticket to download in an area of inevitably poor mobile reception and then find and present the correct part of a split ticket.

Is it that many people just think to themselves that they’ve bought a ticket so there shouldn’t be any need for it to be needed again on their journey?

#28: The ticketing apps should be improved to require an expiry date for any railcards held, providing a warning when they have expired or are about to expire.

Totally agree – but this would presumably need some backend check from the app to check the railcard number against a central railcard-issuing database for the expiry date.

 

[Sun Chariot]

The normal penalty for not paying Vehicle Excise Duty is an £80 fixed penalty, I would suggest that is about the level which would provide sufficient deterrent to pay when challenged whilst still being proportionate

I think the challenge back, is that a fixed amount doesn't then reflect the distance, class of travel & price for every journey.

The £80 fine is where the DVLA flags up a vehicle isn't taxed or SORN'd. However - from RAC's website: "Driving an untaxed vehicle on a public road with a SORN in force will result in an out of court letter and a £30 fine plus twice the value of the outstanding vehicle tax. If unpaid, the case may be pursued through the magistrates’ court where the maximum penalty is £2,500"

 

[Puffing Devil]

#28: The ticketing apps should be improved to require an expiry date for any railcards held, providing a warning when they have expired or are about to expire.
Totally agree – but this would presumably need some backend check from the app to check the railcard number against a central railcard-issuing database for the expiry date.

Not necessarily. The user could easily enter the railcard type and expiry date into the App as a one-off. Any tickets sold in the month before would come with a warning.

 

[duffield]

If you gave a one week grace period and allowed railcards to be backdated to the expiry date if they were found to be in this window, although people *could* game that by renewing after 1 year and 1 week, in practice they almost certainly wouldn't, since the saving would be a paltry 58p per year.

 

[Trainman40083]

Given how many people claim to have forgotten to renew their Railcard, I expected people to diary the need to renew in their mobile phone calendar, say 24 hours before..then they would get (and I presume see) said wanting. I have been on a few trains in the past couple of days and those that had the ticket check, I clearly heard the words (can I see your Railcard please?" Some people say "well they didn't check other people ", but what percentage of people don't have one, because they are not eligible?

 

[MarlowDonkey]

The user could easily enter the railcard type and expiry date into the App as a one-off.

As far as I am aware the forum's ticketing site at

RailUK Tickets, powered by Trainsplit

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tickets.railforums.co.uk

doesn't remember railcards.

If I want to see the applicable discounted prices, I have to select the type from a long list.

 

[jfollows]

#2: On the other hand every railcard has the expiry date clearly stated on the front of it, whether physical or digital.

Slightly off topic but relevant story – a friend and her husband, 70s, intelligent, very well travelled but usually to non-European destinations, turned up at the airport earlier this week for a flight to the Canaries and were denied boarding because his passport was now into the “extra” period that one used to be able to add to UK passports when renewing them. Ie it was more than 10 years since the date the passport was issued. My point being that the ten-year expiry date was clearly shown on his passport, which had been used earlier this year, but that hadn’t reminded him that he needed to renew his passport before this trip.

The passport thing is completely obvious, and anyone who falls foul of it is dim.
Of course, there are lots of rules.
Last time, I wanted to go to the USA but had a Cuba stamp in my passport. So I bought a new passport.
But there are loads of “rules” and not knowing them is not an excuse.
In my case the ”rules” changed but by then I had a new passport anyway.

 

[Sun Chariot]

#2: On the other hand every railcard has the expiry date clearly stated on the front of it, whether physical or digital.

If that is the case - and I have no reason to doubt that, as it makes perfect sense for the expiry date to be visible - then I must be missing the point of this thread.
Because anyone holding a railcard has sight of their railcard expiry and therefore has responsibility for its timely renewal.
Bleating on about TOCs charging structures if found traveling with expired railcard - and, thus, an invalid ticket/travel permit - is utter codswallop if every railcard holder has the means to easily see when they must renew.

 

[methecooldude]

If that is the case - and I have no reason to doubt that, as it makes perfect sense for the expiry date to be visible - then I must be missing the point of this thread.
Becuase anyone holding a railcard has sight of their railcard expiry and therefore has responsibility for its timely renewal.
Bleating on about TOCs charging structures if found traveling with expired railcard - and, thus, an invalid ticket/travel permit - is utter codswallop if every railcard holder has the means to easily see when they must renew.

It IS the case. Every railcard, no matter the form, has the expiry date on it. In the case of Digital ones, the said date appears (in most apps) before you've even pressed 'Show Railcard'
Okay, I should be picky here, the HM Forces Railcard doesn't, it has an issue date stamp on it and it's valid for one year of that stamped date. But that's a special case and I don't deem the HMF to be 'publicly available'

 

[AlterEgo]

If that is the case - and I have no reason to doubt that, as it makes perfect sense for the expiry date to be visible - then I must be missing the point of this thread.
Becuase anyone holding a railcard has sight of their railcard expiry and therefore has responsibility for its timely renewal.
Bleating on about TOCs charging structures if found traveling with expired railcard - and, thus, an invalid ticket/travel permit - is utter codswallop if every railcard holder has the means to easily see when they must renew.

But it’s not codswallop; the penalty for customers (yes, customers) simply not renewing is grossly out of proportion to what’s happened and rarely reflects anything close to the railway’s actual loss. That’s the whole point. It’s why we don’t put people in jail for five years for not insuring their car and why the penalty fare is £100 and not £10,000. “Oh yeah sorry your ticket is invalid, ten grand please”.

This is an unregulated grift by the train companies. Sure, passengers have to take some responsibility, but it’s pathetic for railway enthusiasts to endorse this sort of behaviour by train companies. They do it because they’re underfunded and because they hate their customers, and because they operate in a permissive environment with supine stakeholders.

 

[Trainman40083]

But it’s not codswallop; the penalty for customers (yes, customers) simply not renewing is grossly out of proportion to what’s happened and rarely reflects anything close to the railway’s actual loss. That’s the whole point. It’s why we don’t put people in jail for five years for not insuring their car and why the penalty fare is £100 and not £10,000. “Oh yeah sorry your ticket is invalid, ten grand please”.

This is an unregulated grift by the train companies. Sure, passengers have to take some responsibility, but it’s pathetic for railway enthusiasts to endorse this sort of behaviour by train companies. They do it because they’re underfunded and because they hate their customers, and because they operate in a permissive environment with supine stakeholders.

Surely all the revenue now goes to the Government, post COVID, with the new management contracts and they get about 1.5%?

 

[John R]

But it’s not codswallop; the penalty for customers (yes, customers) simply not renewing is grossly out of proportion to what’s happened and rarely reflects anything close to the railway’s actual loss. That’s the whole point. It’s why we don’t put people in jail for five years for not insuring their car and why the penalty fare is £100 and not £10,000. “Oh yeah sorry your ticket is invalid, ten grand please”.

This is an unregulated grift by the train companies. Sure, passengers have to take some responsibility, but it’s pathetic for railway enthusiasts to endorse this sort of behaviour by train companies. They do it because they’re underfunded and because they hate their customers, and because they operate in a permissive environment with supine stakeholders.

The fixed penalty for driving without insurance is £300 plus 6 points, but if it goes to court you can be banned from driving, and face an unlimited fine. The police can also confiscate the vehicle.

So the outcome of doing so is by no means inconsequential.

 

[AlterEgo]

The fixed penalty for driving without insurance is £300 plus 6 points, but if it goes to court you can be banned from driving, and face an unlimited fine. The police can also confiscate the vehicle.

So the outcome of doing so is by no means inconsequential.

I’m not arguing that it’s inconsequential, but rather that the punishment should fit the crime. I mean you don’t go to *jail* for it, why do you think that is? It’s because that doesn’t seem a proper punishment.

£2000 in hypothetical Anytime fares for young people who forgot to pay £35 to renew a railcard? It’s a grift.

Surely all the revenue now goes to the Government, post COVID, with the new management contracts and they get about 1.5%?

Here’s the rub. Settling with one of these entities out of court? It is not revenue.

 

[Krokodil]

Hard to disagree, if I have a valid Two Together railcard of course I use it, but the Northern Duo is a few pennies more for two of us, with similar restriction.

Importantly a Two Together railcard is only of any use with the other named holder. When buying Duos you can take the wife on one trip and the mistress on the next!

 

[Haywain]

Importantly a Two Together railcard is only of any use with the other named holder. When buying Duos you can take the wife on one trip and the mistress on the next!

Without ever knowing how much they enjoy their days out together!

 

[Sun Chariot]

This is an unregulated grift by the train companies. Sure, passengers have to take some responsibility,

Post #18 by Hadders I think answers that.
The railcard holder takes all responsibility.

 

[Skymonster]

How hard can it be? Oh, I know, in this world where few people take personal responsibility, very hard.

Many on this forum advocate digital tickets, understandably given the pace at which technology has intertwined itself with our lives. Even for customers [like myself] who don’t have a digital railcard, that same technology has a diary and that diary even transfers from device to device when we lose or upgrade the tech. I can renew my railcard 14 days before it expires, so guess when there’s an alert in my diary - yep, 14 days before it expires (now in just under two years time). I put it there the day my latest railcard arrived. As I said, how hard can it be in this digital world? Almost everyone has a phone with an electronic diary. Even if they don’t and still use a paper diary, in the same way I used to write important dates beyond the end of my paper diary in the rearmost pages and then transfer them over… Its not difficult.

My ticket is onboard checked on [I would guess] less than 20% of my train journeys - peak and off-peak. When my ticket is checked, [I would guess] I am asked for my railcard on less than 10% of occasions. I travel two or three times a week, and its become so rare I’m asked for a railcard I don’t bother getting it out of my bag when a revenue inspection is taking place - I can’t remember the last time even I saw it. But its there in a particular place and I know it hasn‘t expired because of the electronic record I have made to remind myself to renew it.

As far as penalties are concerned though, the railway is taking the mick with the current highest fares levy. But there has to be something punitive to discourage deliberate evasion. The difference between the fares paid and the fares due without a railcard (same type of ticket), plus investigation costs (capped), plus a fixed penalty fee (say something like the £80 for other offences cited previously) would be a reasonable compromise I believe - indeed one that I would begrudgingly accept and deem fair if I were caught out, because ultimately I’d accept I only had myself to blame.

 

[Adam Williams]

Oh, I know, in this world where few people take personal responsibility, very hard.

My counter to this argument - which I do have some sympathy for - is "why shouldn't the railway make it as easy as possible to keep a valid Railcard (and ultimately to pay HMT money)"

It's great that you're manually creating calendar entries for renewals, but the tech exists to take money automatically for customers who are okay with that and want to spend their time on more important things. What's the compelling argument not to roll this out? Germany do it.

Hell, even just helping you to create the calendar entry for "one week until expiry" in two taps is something that ticketing apps could help with and is supported on Android / iOS (and could be implemented in about 10 minutes). Again, the tech exists - when is the rail industry going to modernise?

 

[Falcon1200]

Is it that many people just think to themselves that they’ve bought a ticket so there shouldn’t be any need for it to be needed again on their journey?

On many trains on which I travel an announcement along the lines of 'Please have your tickets ready for inspection' is made, sometimes also with the 'Please download e-tickets' addition.

But I do agree that whenever Railcard-discounted tickets are inspected, the Railcard should automatically be inspected as well, thus identifying expired (or non-existent) Railcards at the earliest opportunity. Can it be said that this usually happens, and is the fact that a ticket was purchased with a Railcard clearly and immediately obvious to the ticket inspector?

 

[Hadders]

On many trains on which I travel an announcement along the lines of 'Please have your tickets ready for inspection' is made, sometimes also with the 'Please download e-tickets' addition.

But I do agree that whenever Railcard-discounted tickets are inspected, the Railcard should automatically be inspected as well, thus identifying expired (or non-existent) Railcards at the earliest opportunity. Can it be said that this usually happens, and is the fact that a ticket was purchased with a Railcard clearly and immediately obvious to the ticket inspector?

The issue is it takes longer to check tickets and railcards so there's a balance to hit. Do both and you end up checking fewer passengers, or do a quick ticket check and make sure that every passenger at least has a ticket. Supplementary info - many guards selling tickets get commission on the ticket sale but they can't sell railcards.

 

[pitdiver]

As a matter of interest I hold a PTAC. So tickets I purchase are marked PRIV. Every time I have travelled on EMR I have been asked to show it. This does seem strange as I can only purchase PRIV tickets from a booking office who always ask to see my PTAC.

 

[talldave]

Whilst I accept it's going off-topic, if the industry only sold discounted tickets on provision of a valid, in-date, Railcard number then we wouldn't be having this pointless discussion. As usual I can't think of any other industry or business stupid enough to allow a discount without proof of entitlement. Live checking of validity should be mandatory on all transactions - as a bonus, stolen Railcards could be blocked instantly.

When my Nectar card (a pseudo discount card) was used fraudulently, I made one phone call and had a new "card" number allocated instantly. I can even lock/unlock it's usability from within it's own app.

The rail industry is so antiquated it's embarrassing.

 

[Hadders]

Whilst I accept it's going off-topic, if the industry only sold discounted tickets on provision of a valid, in-date, Railcard number then we wouldn't be having this pointless discussion. As usual I can't think of any other industry or business stupid enough to allow a discount without proof of entitlement. Live checking of validity should be mandatory on all transactions - as a bonus, stolen Railcards could be blocked instantly.

When my Nectar card (a pseudo discount card) was used fraudulently, I made one phone call and had a new "card" number allocated instantly. I can even lock/unlock it's usability from within it's own app.

The rail industry is so antiquated it's embarrassing.

We've discussed this extensively before but (as ever) it isn't that simple. I assume your plan would mean buying railcard disciounted tickets for someone else would no longer be possible.

 

[Tevion539]

Whilst I accept it's going off-topic, if the industry only sold discounted tickets on provision of a valid, in-date, Railcard number then we wouldn't be having this pointless discussion. As usual I can't think of any other industry or business stupid enough to allow a discount without proof of entitlement. Live checking of validity should be mandatory on all transactions - as a bonus, stolen Railcards could be blocked instantly.

When my Nectar card (a pseudo discount card) was used fraudulently, I made one phone call and had a new "card" number allocated instantly. I can even lock/unlock it's usability from within it's own app.

The rail industry is so antiquated it's embarrassing.

You can buy a ticket regardless of whether you possess railcard or not. Some people would rather buy their tickets in advance and get the railcard at a later date (before travel) or buy a ticket for someone else, and that’s perfectly legal.

I really don’t understand in post 1 how the OP suggests that we get told not to check railcards? That’s a baseless assumption. We absolutely do not.

As @Hadders said in #54 it’s a balance. If we check every persons railcard, an I do if the train isn’t busy, it would take an absolute age. Many times I’ve attempted to check every railcard and would struggle to get halfway through one carriage. It isn’t feasible on all journeys.


For someone’s card to have been expired for six months, the OP of the thread that this is split from must have just been lucky. Or unlucky, depending on how you view it. I tend to give people leniency if their cards are recently expired. I.e. renew it now, and that’ll be that. But anything around the 3 week/1 month mark is pushing it IMO. Six months is ludicrous. People should be taking personal responsibility and I agree with Hadders analogy on road tax, MOT etc.

 

[Falcon1200]

The issue is it takes longer to check tickets and railcards so there's a balance to hit.

Fair point. Perhaps the 'Please have tickets ready for inspection' message should also say 'you MUST present your Railcard, if applicable', as well (at the risk of annoying people with even more on-board noise....)

 

[Tevion539]

Fair point. Perhaps the 'Please have tickets ready for inspection' message should also say 'you MUST present your Railcard, if applicable', as well (at the risk of annoying people with even more on-board noise....)

Our “tickets ready” automatic announcement includes railcards as far as I’m aware. Even then, I make this announcement myself. Very rarely does anyone actually listen to it.