Discussion on electrification and the Marlow branch

[Anstecker]

FGW have now said it's likely that Marlow will not be electrified.

Hi Paul, it doesn't look like the Marlow branch line will be part of the planned electrification. Jess.

It appears that the idea of electrifying Greenford have also gone, but Henley and Windsor are still going forward.

Does anyone know why? This won't please commuters down in Leafy Buckinghamshire (or Theresa May), though given the problems with electrifying the main line I suppose it's not too startling. And you can only put two-car trains on the Marlow branch without platform alterations.

I think the other interesting bit of the map is that Reading to Basingstoke (which is scheduled for electrification primarily for freight services) will also get electric local trains.

 

[RichmondCommu]

FGW have now said it's likely that Marlow will not be electrified.


It appears that the idea of electrifying Greenford have also gone, but Henley and Windsor are still going forward.

Does anyone know why? This won't please commuters down in Leafy Buckinghamshire (or Theresa May), though given the problems with electrifying the main line I suppose it's not too startling. And you can only put two-car trains on the Marlow branch without platform alterations.

I think the other interesting bit of the map is that Reading to Basingstoke (which is scheduled for electrification primarily for freight services) will also get electric local trains.

I think it has something to do with platform lengths at one of the stations which means that EMU's would be too long to use the branch. I'm pretty sure this has been mentioned recently, possibly on the GWML electrification thread.

 

[Mojo]

I believe it was said that due to the layout of the track at Bourne End it is only possible for a 2-car unit to go to Marlow, and there are no suitable units that could run such a service.

 

[HSTEd]

Why do I get the feeling that we are going to regret this in the future?
At least going to Bourne End would mean that the second unit used in the peak could be electric, for not much cost.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Why do I get the feeling that we are going to regret this in the future?

A while a go a forum member posted that in their opinion the electrification program was dead in its tracks (pardon the pun) due to the falling price of oil.

 

[TheKnightWho]

A while a go a forum member posted that in their opinion the electrification program was dead in its tracks (pardon the pun) due to the falling price of oil.

That's certainly a temporary phenomenon. With environmentalism being an increasingly large force, we'll see ever higher oil taxes anyway, too. I certainly wouldn't count on that at all.

 

[HSTEd]

That's certainly a temporary phenomenon. With environmentalism being an increasingly large force, we'll see ever higher oil taxes anyway, too. I certainly wouldn't count on that at all.

Its an interesting situation - but it appears the breakeven price of 'Light Tight Oil' is still falling and is now below $70 in many places.
This article makes very interesting reading.
And considering the shear amount of Shale available, it puts a hard cap on oil prices.

Environmentalism is I think becoming spent as a political force. The projections are now showing massive climate change is inevitable - at which point there seems little point attempting to rein it in. Economic growth by any means necessary is now the objective. Just note the amount of climate change talk in the 2010 Election runup compared to this one.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Won't they be forced to go for longer stock eventually anyway even if it's DMUs (to get the engine and all the emissions regs stuff in)?

As regard to Reading-Basingstoke, if a suitable connection was installed at Reading would a Southampton-Waterloo via Reading services be theoretically possible, even if it was only for times when the main SWML is closed for engineering works?

 

[Hophead]

FGW have now said it's likely that Marlow will not be electrified.


It appears that the idea of electrifying Greenford have also gone, but Henley and Windsor are still going forward.

Does anyone know why? This won't please commuters down in Leafy Buckinghamshire (or Theresa May), though given the problems with electrifying the main line I suppose it's not too startling. And you can only put two-car trains on the Marlow branch without platform alterations.

I think the other interesting bit of the map is that Reading to Basingstoke (which is scheduled for electrification primarily for freight services) will also get electric local trains.

The Greenford branch has not been scheduled for electrification (but is planned to be transferred to TfL), leading to speculation regarding the units to be used in future, given TfL will have no diesel units, and FGW none in the London area. The Basingstoke shuttle was planned for EMUs once electrification is complete.

As for the Marlow branch, I can see a need for electrification as far as Bourne End, in order to provide the peak service to & from London, but the section to Marlow is clearly a problem. There has been recent talk regarding some remodelling and new track at Bourne End which you may find elsewhere on the forum).

 

[edwin_m]

The Greenford branch has not been scheduled for electrification (but is planned to be transferred to TfL), leading to speculation regarding the units to be used in future, given TfL will have no diesel units, and FGW none in the London area. The Basingstoke shuttle was planned for EMUs once electrification is complete.

Maybe central government wants TfL to pay for electrification?

 

[swt_passenger]

The Greenford branch has not been scheduled for electrification (but is planned to be transferred to TfL), leading to speculation regarding the units to be used in future, given TfL will have no diesel units, and FGW none in the London area.

There was much discussion about Greenford going to LO as an isolated branch (comparable to Romford Upminster) - but AFAICT it has never appeared in any official policy document. It is still explained as an FGW service in the DfT's direct award consultations published last week, although being doubled in frequency.

BTW this threads main point about the branch to Bourne End/Marlow not being electrified has already been discussed in the main FGW franchise thread.

 

[jimm]

Environmentalism is I think becoming spent as a political force. The projections are now showing massive climate change is inevitable - at which point there seems little point attempting to rein it in. Economic growth by any means necessary is now the objective. Just note the amount of climate change talk in the 2010 Election runup compared to this one.

So we will end up with an SNP government after all, as most of England will have disappeared beneath the waves...

Back on topic, I think we'll have to wait a while for wiring. The key problem seems to be whether or not someone will commit to an order for some three-car emus able to fit into Bourne End at some point.

Don't forget that there is Local Growth Fund money already committed for alterations and new signalling at Bourne End to allow two trains per hour throughout the day between Maidenhead and Marlow and eliminating the need for Marlow passengers to change at Bourne End in the peaks, albeit that Turbos will carry on for the time being.

 

[TheWalrus]

Surely the Thames Valley branches could be candidates for battery operated units?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Surely the Thames Valley branches could be candidates for battery operated units?

As much as battery operated units sound attractive, they actually present a number of operational inconveniences, so aren't all that cheap.

 

[Busaholic]

How about a tram/train Bourne End to a new terminus in Marlow proper? Or, of course, just a tram.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Back on topic, I think we'll have to wait a while for wiring. The key problem seems to be whether or not someone will commit to an order for some three-car emus able to fit into Bourne End at some point

Is it just a single station where carriage length is a problem? If it is why can't they still electrify the route and install the lineside equipment needed for SDO and order EMUs equipped with whatever is needed for SDO
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Back on topic, I think we'll have to wait a while for wiring. The key problem seems to be whether or not someone will commit to an order for some three-car emus able to fit into Bourne End at some point

Is it just a single station where carriage length is a problem? If it is why can't they still electrify the route and install the lineside equipment needed for SDO and order EMUs equipped with whatever is needed for SDO

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it just a single station where carriage length is a problem? If it is why can't they still electrify the route and install the lineside equipment needed for SDO and order EMUs equipped with whatever is needed for SDO

The Bourne End to Marlow section issue is predominantly a problem with the platform length and position with respect to the junction, SDO cannot solve it. I don't believe Maidenhead to Bourne End itself is as much of an issue, that's basically a platform extension.

It's possibly worth having a look at a satellite view.

Much depends on whether or not the priority is for through trains from Maidenhead to Marlow or not.

 

[jimm]

Is it just a single station where carriage length is a problem? If it is why can't they still electrify the route and install the lineside equipment needed for SDO and order EMUs equipped with whatever is needed for SDO

The problem is the amount of space in Bourne End station, where the trains change direction to get to and from Marlow. There is simply not the space to build platforms long enough for four-car trains between the buffer stops and the junction for Marlow and you can't extend the platforms as there is a road right behind the buffers.

If you want to see the issue, call up Bourne End on Google Maps and use the satellite view, which helpfully has a two-car Turbo on the curve just outside the station to give an idea of how little space they are working with.

 

[mr_jrt]

I was under the impression that Greenford was going to be operated by Chiltern as a diesel High Wycombe to West Ealing service...making the short bay at Greenford irrelevant...

 

[leananger]

Am I missing something, why cannot you have 2 car 25KV units?

 

[pdeaves]

Am I missing something, why cannot you have 2 car 25KV units?

Small, non-standard (which is expensive) fleet, for a start.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Am I missing something, why cannot you have 2 car 25KV units?

As far as I'm aware, none exist. You've got the 456s and the 466s, which are both modern electric trains, but they're both 750DC only with no way of converting either.

 

[MarkyT]

I was under the impression that Greenford was going to be operated by Chiltern as a diesel High Wycombe to West Ealing service...making the short bay at Greenford irrelevant...

That wouldn't be able to serve Greenford, with its Central Line connection, without an expensive new platform on the through line. Section Appendix gives Greenford bay length as 83m/91yds so a three car EMU is no problem there.

Going back to Marlow and electrification. Reading depot is expected to retain a small turbo allocation following electrification for residual diesel operations, namely North Downs and Bedwyn. Marlow can be resourced from this small diesel fleet. Longer term something specialised could be devised such as a tram-train solution, if and when electrification is extended further on the B&H and North Downs and the diesel capability is no longer retained at Reading.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Much depends on whether or not the priority is for through trains from Maidenhead to Marlow or not.

Passengers have got used to this direct no-change operation which is the norm today apart from the Bourne End to London train. There'd be much local resistance to any change (unintended pun!).

 

[Mojo]

Passengers have got used to this direct no-change operation which is the norm today apart from the Bourne End to London train. There'd be much local resistance to any change (unintended pun!).

Indeed, especially when you consider that during the day customers for the branch already have to change once onto to the shuttle at Maidenhead, to create the need to change a second time would certainly not be acceptable to most customers.

 

[HSTEd]

You might have been able to have two-car electrics if the 319s had been going to the THames Valley as originally planned. (If you build a cab into the motor vehicle you could form it up with a driving trailer and fit it with the auxiliaries, like in the 3-car proposals).

But now they are getting newbuild units, no chance.
If they allowed a new level crossing at Bourne End you could allow the train to stop in the platform, then draw forward and reverse again, but I doubt that would go down well.

 

[Class 170101]

Why not use a Parry People Mover operating Maidenhead and Marlow between the peaks with it running solely between Marlow and Bourne End at Peak times with an electric train to / from London at this time?

One change either at Maidenhead or Bourne End at all times.

 

[evergreenadam]

There was much discussion about Greenford going to LO as an isolated branch (comparable to Romford Upminster) - but AFAICT it has never appeared in any official policy document. It is still explained as an FGW service in the DfT's direct award consultations published last week, although being doubled in frequency.

BTW this threads main point about the branch to Bourne End/Marlow not being electrified has already been discussed in the main FGW franchise thread.

Is it being doubled in frequency? That was the rumour but nothing in the latest Direct Award documents as far as I can see.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it being doubled in frequency? That was the rumour but nothing in the latest Direct Award documents as far as I can see.

The clickable map on the FGW website shows the intermediate stations having an 'increased frequency' (it doesn't mention Greenford though presumably because its an LU station). Not sure where I got 'doubled' from though.

 

[jimm]

The clickable map on the FGW website shows the intermediate stations having an 'increased frequency' (it doesn't mention Greenford though presumably because its an LU station). Not sure where I got 'doubled' from though.

Wasn't 100 per cent sure which line you meant. Greenford? Just seems to be in the 'we'll sort this one out later' category. But if Marlow, you're probably thinking of this story from the Bucks Free Press in February

Commuters could be facing an easier trip to work in future after a regional funding proposal which would see bigger and more frequent trains between Marlow and Maidenhead.

Buckinghamshire Thames Valley Local Enterprise Partnership (BTVLEP) has agreed to extend its government ‘Growth Deal’ for the county by another £8.8million between 2016 and 2021.

Among the investments, the business-led group plans to improve the rail link to provide a half hourly direct service on the line affectionately known as the ‘Marlow Donkey’.

Richard Porter, membership secretary of pressure group Marlow and Maidenhead Passengers’ Association, said: “They’re planning to put an extra piece of track so they can run a half hourly service to Marlow.

http://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/news/11766203.More_trains_on_their_way_to_Marlow_/

 

[swt_passenger]

Wasn't 100 per cent sure which line you meant. Greenford? Just seems to be in the 'we'll sort this one out later' category.

It was Greenford I was meaning. Apologies if any confusion caused by attempting to answer two completely separate points in one post!

I see we both came up with the same idea about using a satellite view of Bourne End earlier, within a minute!