Dispatch procedure at Birmingham New Street

[pt_mad]

A couple of questions out of interest if anyone is able to answer them.

I can understand the logic in using the Bardic/handlamp for dispatch at Birmingham New Street but why was this chosen for use at BHM but not at other dark roofed locations such as Euston and Birmingham International? What is the criteria for whether the lamp should be used all of the time?


Also I was wondering whether the Right Away indicator is used for every train at New Street or just some? Also what is the reason for this on trains such as Cross Country HSTs for example? Could the guard not ring the bell buzzer when receiving the 2nd tip?

Thanks.

 

[headshot119]

A couple of questions out of interest if anyone is able to answer them.

I can understand the logic in using the Bardic/handlamp for dispatch at Birmingham New Street but why was this chosen for use at BHM but not at other dark roofed locations such as Euston and Birmingham International? What is the criteria for whether the lamp should be used all of the time?


Also I was wondering whether the Right Away indicator is used for every train at New Street or just some? Also what is the reason for this on trains such as Cross Country HSTs for example? Could the guard not ring the bell buzzer when receiving the 2nd tip?

Thanks.

All trains at New Street go off the RA indicator. Even trains fitted with buzzers.

 

[Tracky]

The method is showing a green to the person in charge of the platform who then passes on the RA.

It does not have to be a green lamp, a flag would do. However, the dimness of New Street lends itself to a lamp - unlike other stations where that method is used. If the station becomes brighter you might see flags...

Also worth a mention is that a green flag does not look green in tungsten light.

 

[pt_mad]

All trains at New Street go off the RA indicator. Even trains fitted with buzzers.

Why is this though?

 

[O L Leigh]

Because it's in the local instructions.

O L Leigh

 

[causton]

Would guards still give the two buzzers then? If so, before or after the RA?

 

[Tracky]

Would guards still give the two buzzers then? If so, before or after the RA?

No. The Guard to Driver Train Ready to Start signal is the green to the person in charge of the platform who then activates the RA.

 

[Crossover]

Kind of on a similar topic, I believe Pendos are always despatched under RA. Are they, however, still fitted with buzzers? I was advised at Stafford once that the RA on platform 3 failed and they had to resort to an alternative method (mentioned as the driver apparently made a huge deal out of it and delayed the service as a result...)

 

[pt_mad]

Kind of on a similar topic, I believe Pendos are always despatched under RA. Are they, however, still fitted with buzzers? I was advised at Stafford once that the RA on platform 3 failed and they had to resort to an alternative method (mentioned as the driver apparently made a huge deal out of it and delayed the service as a result...)

They are self dispatched at Tamworth and Lichfield Trent Valley. I believe a bell buzzer is used for this.

 

[driver_m]

Kind of on a similar topic, I believe Pendos are always despatched under RA. Are they, however, still fitted with buzzers? I was advised at Stafford once that the RA on platform 3 failed and they had to resort to an alternative method (mentioned as the driver apparently made a huge deal out of it and delayed the service as a result...)

Our dispatch is mostly RA for a pendo, except at some stations like Lichfield TV where bell/buzzer is used. Our route knowledge covers this and we know which one to use at the correct location. The driver is quite right to 'make a big deal' out of it as an incorrect dispatch is the last thing we want. (I would guess most people on here know why). Any problems like this we are supposed to be advised of, as would the Train Manager, so that an alternative method can be used.

Euston, New St and Man Picc have mandatory RA dispatch for all passenger/ECS moves not just Virgin. I'd guess some other main/terminal stations across the UK have the same rule.

 

[pt_mad]

Our dispatch is mostly RA for a pendo, except at some stations like Lichfield TV where bell/buzzer is used. Our route knowledge covers this and we know which one to use at the correct location. The driver is quite right to 'make a big deal' out of it as an incorrect dispatch is the last thing we want. (I would guess most people on here know why). Any problems like this we are supposed to be advised of, as would the Train Manager, so that an alternative method can be used.

Euston, New St and Man Picc have mandatory RA dispatch for all passenger/ECS moves not just Virgin. I'd guess some other main/terminal stations across the UK have the same rule.

Maybe this is down to the RA not allowing activation when the signal is at danger. Whereas a tip and bell buzzer could still be given at danger.

 

[Mugby]

My understanding is that all the indicators (at New St) show R first, then RA.

I know R is Ready but what determines this and who applies it?

 

[O L Leigh]

You understand incorrectly.

However, at Liverpool Street there are "R" indicators. These are interchangeable and have the same meaning as an "RA" indicator. There is no "R" and "RA". They are the same thing.

O L Leigh

 

[driver_m]

My understanding is that all the indicators (at New St) show R first, then RA.

I know R is Ready but what determines this and who applies it?

It doesn't do that at New St. It's straight to RA when the signals are fully cleared and dispatch duties are done and RA is given by platform staff. As O L Leigh says R/RA are the same thing. (Crewe has R, Stafford RA for instance)

 

[Mojo]

I *believe* that the RA indicator is used at New St for all trains because of the high potential consequences of a Spad caused by a guard, or member of platform staff, giving the right away to the driver when the starter signal is still on; so-called ''ding ding and away;'' although I believe the official term is Sas-Spad (Starting Against Signal SPAD). In addition to the number of conflicting movements right off the end of the platforms, there are also very short overlaps. The RA indicator is connected with the starter signal and cannot illuminate unless this signal is off, thus if all trains only use this method of dispatch then the risk is minimised.

As to why Pendolinos usually use RA for dispatch at most locations whereas other trains do not; that one I have no idea about!

 

[TEW]

Euston, New St and Man Picc have mandatory RA dispatch for all passenger/ECS moves not just Virgin. I'd guess some other main/terminal stations across the UK have the same rule.

I think there are some other stations, but it's not that widespread. Can't think of any station across the Western and Southern areas that has mandatory RA dispatch.

 

[driver_m]

I *believe* that the RA indicator is used at New St for all trains because of the high potential consequences of a Spad caused by a guard, or member of platform staff, giving the right away to the driver when the starter signal is still on; so-called ''ding ding and away;'' although I believe the official term is Sas-Spad (Starting Against Signal SPAD). In addition to the number of conflicting movements right off the end of the platforms, there are also very short overlaps. The RA indicator is connected with the starter signal and cannot illuminate unless this signal is off, thus if all trains only use this method of dispatch then the risk is minimised.

As to why Pendolinos usually use RA for dispatch at most locations whereas other trains do not; that one I have no idea about!

Consistency and safety, you mostly answered your own question with what you wrote above. RA can't happen with a red at the end of the platform.

 

[Mojo]

Consistency and safety, you mostly answered your own question with what you wrote above. RA can't happen with a red at the end of the platform.

Yes but why only Pendolinos? Trains other than Pendolinos are equally as likely to be involved in a Spad when pulling away.

(I know that LHCS without bells/buzzers also often rely on this, but that makes sense)

 

[O L Leigh]

At New Street...? No train (even ECS) can depart without the RA, irrespective of type or class. This has already been said.

Whatever else you might mean is unclear.

O L Leigh

 

[Mojo]

At New Street...? No train (even ECS) can depart without the RA, irrespective of type or class. This has already been said.

Whatever else you might mean is unclear.

Yes, I believe I was one of the people that said that?

I am not sure what is unclear but I was responding to a point raised elsewhere in the thread about Pendolino dispatch; asking why at most locations Pendolinos are dispatched using RA whereas other automatic door trains are not.

 

[pt_mad]

Yes the Pendolino one is a bit of a mystery.

Can't really understand why they self dispatch at Tamworth either really. Lichfield yes as I think that is unstaffed a lot of the time but Tamworth I think is mostly staffed??? Big train to self dispatch sort of defeats the object of the RA at other locations for extra safety.

 

[the sniper]

Would guards still give the two buzzers then?

Only if their mind has been warped by a 5 hour, 100+ stop stint of buzz-buzzing along the cross city line. Or they've gone back and forth to BHI five times and have have forgotten where they are...

My understanding is that all the indicators (at New St) show R first, then RA.

I know R is Ready but what determines this and who applies it?

Are you confusing the RA indicator with the route indicator? For example, at the east end of the station when the signal is off it'll show S or D before the RA comes up, this indicates whether the train is routed into the Stour or Derby tunnel.

 

[Starmill]

I've always thought this seems a little bit odd. As has been mentioned Manchester Piccadilly is the same, a train which turns up empty, just drops a guard off and then proceeds (presumably to depot) needs to be dispatched using the R (not RA here) indicator!

If you take a TPE 185 on a Liverpool to Scarborough service it travels through stations of varying size and staffing level... but only needs to be dispatched with an R on P13 at Piccadilly. Other places might have platform staff who aren't involved in dispatch (Huddersfield?) and staff who are, but don't use indicators (Leeds, York?) or no staff at all (various). Oxford Road don't use the indicators do they? And yet the through platforms at Piccadilly must! Talk about inconsistency. Of course the local instructions are vastly important, failing to adhere to them could have fatal consequences, but as with some other things Railway the overriding reason for their use appears to be 'because that's how it's done here'.

I've also thought of something else, can anybody verify this please? My memory may not serve. It seems that the 'local' trains at some places are dispatched by staff and not indicators - I'm thinking of Stockport here, but isn't every train still dispatched by the platform staff, with only Pendos using the RA indicators? And then Doncaster, where the staff (lots of em it seems!) dispatch the EC/GC/HT trains (but do they have indicators?), but northern and TPE get just the guard? Oh it's all so confusing.

Finally, is Sandwell and Dudley fitted with RA indicators? I think I remember the LM ticket office staff dashing off to dispatch a late Pendo there once. Seems strange that it is and Tamworth isn't?

 

[A-driver]

I've always thought this seems a little bit odd. As has been mentioned Manchester Piccadilly is the same, a train which turns up empty, just drops a guard off and then proceeds (presumably to depot) needs to be dispatched using the R (not RA here) indicator!

If you take a TPE 185 on a Liverpool to Scarborough service it travels through stations of varying size and staffing level... but only needs to be dispatched with an R on P13 at Piccadilly. Other places might have platform staff who aren't involved in dispatch (Huddersfield?) and staff who are, but don't use indicators (Leeds, York?) or no staff at all (various). Oxford Road don't use the indicators do they? And yet the through platforms at Piccadilly must! Talk about inconsistency. Of course the local instructions are vastly important, failing to adhere to them could have fatal consequences, but as with some other things Railway the overriding reason for their use appears to be 'because that's how it's done here'.

I've also thought of something else, can anybody verify this please? My memory may not serve. It seems that the 'local' trains at some places are dispatched by staff and not indicators - I'm thinking of Stockport here, but isn't every train still dispatched by the platform staff, with only Pendos using the RA indicators? And then Doncaster, where the staff (lots of em it seems!) dispatch the EC/GC/HT trains (but do they have indicators?), but northern and TPE get just the guard? Oh it's all so confusing.

Finally, is Sandwell and Dudley fitted with RA indicators? I think I remember the LM ticket office staff dashing off to dispatch a late Pendo there once. Seems strange that it is and Tamworth isn't?

To be fair, and no offence intended, but it's not confusing or strange. Those who need to know procedures for these locations do. The reasons why are mainly historical and due to no one having the guts (or finding the need to) to change things. If the RA is always used for pendolinos and some manager changes the rule and 2 weeks later there is an incident as a result then that manager will be hung out for it. Plus some locations have RA equipment installed for various reasons but some trains using the station won't change their policy for whatever reason and so the RA won't be used for those trains. It's where different historical regions and modern differing TOCs policies complicates things. At kings cross, FCC trains, empty or in service, must get RA. East coast etc in service get the bells and no RA but empty intercity stock gets the RA. Then other locations like Cambridge and Peterbourgh only give RA to service trains. Empty stock goes without the RA. Different companies have different policies. Staff involved know what the procedure is at each location and that is really all that matters.

 

[driver_m]

Yes the Pendolino one is a bit of a mystery.

Can't really understand why they self dispatch at Tamworth either really. Lichfield yes as I think that is unstaffed a lot of the time but Tamworth I think is mostly staffed??? Big train to self dispatch sort of defeats the object of the RA at other locations for extra safety.

There's various reasons why at some stations it isn't RA. Staffing/signalling etc. Lichfield and Tamworth didn't have separate full time VT staff. Prob still don't. West coast services used right away indicators even with loco and stock. How long ago this started I've no idea but some of the R indicators are quite old now.

It probably should be a standard method across the country but dispatching is set by different Tocs and adapted at certain locations ie New St

Sandwell has indicators.

 

[Starmill]

To be fair, and no offence intended, but it's not confusing or strange. Those who need to know procedures for these locations do. The reasons why are mainly historical and due to no one having the guts (or finding the need to) to change things. If the RA is always used for pendolinos and some manager changes the rule and 2 weeks later there is an incident as a result then that manager will be hung out for it. Plus some locations have RA equipment installed for various reasons but some trains using the station won't change their policy for whatever reason and so the RA won't be used for those trains. It's where different historical regions and modern differing TOCs policies complicates things. At kings cross, FCC trains, empty or in service, must get RA. East coast etc in service get the bells and no RA but empty intercity stock gets the RA. Then other locations like Cambridge and Peterbourgh only give RA to service trains. Empty stock goes without the RA. Different companies have different policies. Staff involved know what the procedure is at each location and that is really all that matters.

I think, from your 'on the ground' viewpoint, you might find it difficult to see what I mean really, and I did say that as long as everyone knows what they're doing that's all that matters. But think of the resources that could be being wasted out there getting to the point that we are at, where everything is carried out safely in accordance with such a complicated set of rules. And your point about the blame being laid on anyone who alters the status quo for something that goes wrong is exactly my point; nobody can instigate this sort of change. I'm a great believer in the economic benefits of consistency and standardisation - and 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' isn't good enough, because nothing can ever be perfect (and not to be rude but the UKs railways are pretty far away from that!).

 

[hello]

Are you confusing the RA indicator with the route indicator? For example, at the east end of the station when the signal is off it'll show S or D before the RA comes up, this indicates whether the train is routed into the Stour or Derby tunnel.

not all platforms, infact only a couple display s or d. the ra at new st is linked to the departure boards, once the ra is pressed the train dissapears from the main departure boards, this is the reason that all trains at new st depart with the RA

 

[pt_mad]

There's various reasons why at some stations it isn't RA. Staffing/signalling etc. Lichfield and Tamworth didn't have separate full time VT staff. Prob still don't. West coast services used right away indicators even with loco and stock. How long ago this started I've no idea but some of the R indicators are quite old now.

It probably should be a standard method across the country but dispatching is set by different Tocs and adapted at certain locations ie New St

Sandwell has indicators.

Why do those stations need seperate VT staff? Can LM staff not dispatch pendos? I think they do at MKC and Nun?


In a sense that other poster does have a point with regards lack of consistency. I mean you have some small town locations dispatching 170s, then places like Tamworth and Lichfield Trent Valley where a guard has to dispatch an 11 coach train by him/herself with nobody present on the platform.

 

[driver_m]

Why do those stations need seperate VT staff? Can LM staff not dispatch pendos? I think they do at MKC and Nun?


In a sense that other poster does have a point with regards lack of consistency. I mean you have some small town locations dispatching 170s, then places like Tamworth and Lichfield Trent Valley where a guard has to dispatch an 11 coach train by him/herself with nobody present on the platform.

As I've said, various reasons. Wigan Nw and Warrington also use bell/buzzer but they are fully staffed VT stations. Then there is 221 dispatch which is almost all bell/buzzer. The best way to describe it is typical railway.

 

[Crossover]

Thanks for the insight driver_m

May I also ask, when the RA fails, can the driver take instruction about such from the TM or platform staff or must they get it directly from the signaller?