Dispute paying for criminal damage

[Aaron1]

Hi all,
Hope this question is allowed in here, I always find there are quite some intelligent people on this forum.

So at the weekend my nephew and his best mate was out together and for reasons best known to themselves they decided to egg a few houses and one of the homeowners who got egged is threatening to make them pay for the repairs of a damaged window due to the egging. Apparently there is CCTV evidence of them egging this house but my nephew and his mate both maintain the window was already damaged before they threw the egg and I believe they have got an independent witness who can confirm this. So when the bill comes in, is it the homeowners responsibility to prove the window wasn't already damaged before the egging or is it my nephew and his mate's responsibility to prove that the window was damaged before the egging?

Obviously either side are going to struggle to prove either way and I would fully expect my nephew and his mate to pay if they did indeed cause the damage but if the window was already damaged beforehand I don't believe they should be responsible for paying for damages they didn't cause by their wrongdoing!

Any advice would be appreciated please.

 

[Iskra]

I’d make your nephew pay regardless, it might teach him something.

 

[DelayRepay]

If it turned into a legal matter, a court may decide that on the balance of probability your nephew caused the damage. Or they may not.

How old is your nephew and are the police involved?

You said there were other houses 'egged' too. Have any of those residents complained?

I agree with Iskra - he should pay anyway, and apologise and clean everyone's windows. But I realise that's not what you asked.

 

[birchesgreen]

The window status would be a hard thing to prove either way, the home owner may indeed genuinely not known if it was broken already (especially if its in an obscure part of the house they don't go in much). Best thing would be to pay for the damage, be a valuable life lesson for your nephew.

 

[2192]

If I were the magistrate, from the evidence you have provided, I would side with the home owner.

 

[jupiter]

If I was the responsible adult for these children I wouldn’t even try to defend it. What more appropriate punishment could there be?

 

[Aaron1]

No other complaints from other homeowners as far as I am aware.

And not for a minute am I trying to defend what he has done, he has done wrong and he accepts that but IF! the window was already damaged then the homeowner making my nephew pay for damages he didn't cause, 2 wrongs do not make a right do they.

Since posting the opening post my newphew has just text me to say that he has found 2 witnesses who can confirm the window was already damaged before the egging, but how reliable and how independent these witnesses are I don't know

 

[yorkie]

No other complaints from other homeowners as far as I am aware.

Have they been asked?

And not for a minute am I trying to defend what he has done, he has done wrong and he accepts that but IF! the window was already damaged then the homeowner making my nephew pay for damages he didn't cause, 2 wrongs do not make a right do they.

I think they should pay up and not contest it.

 

[AlterEgo]

If I were the magistrate, from the evidence you have provided, I would side with the home owner.

Magistrates don’t decide on civil matters, and if it was a criminal matter, the homeowner is not a party in court. It’s the Crown vs the nephew.

OP: what sort of damage is alleged to have been caused? A broken window? Or something else?

 

[Aaron1]

Magistrates don’t decide on civil matters, and if it was a criminal matter, the homeowner is not a party in court. It’s the Crown vs the nephew.

OP: what sort of damage is alleged to have been caused? A broken window? Or something else?

I believe it is the outer pane of glass on a double glazed window that is smashed apparently

 

[AM9]

I believe it is the outer pane of glass on a double glazed window that is smashed apparently

Brace yourself for a couple of hundred pounds to replace it then. It might cost more than that to contest the claim that your nephew's misdemeanour caused the breakage.

 

[dosxuk]

Unless you've got some tangible evidence to prove it was already broken, then I can't see anyone siding with your nephew. Frankly, it's a good demonstration of unintended consequences for him, if he hadn't been engaging in petty vandalism he wouldn't be facing these questions.

 

[dakta]

Not a legal opinion but if they were so aware of it already been damaged, why didn't it impact their decision to throw said egg?

I'm sort of with the above, when you release said projectile for whatever reason there's some kind of risk acceptance that there might be consequences. In the case of further damaging something already damaged it doesn't take a lot to realise that you may either risk much greater unintended damage or even be blamed for the whole lot.

From the homeowners perspective it's probably a case of my window was fine, now it's damaged and I have CCTV of people throwing stuff at it.

For the sake of human decency I'd pay up and use it as a lesson, if the window genuinely was previously broken then the lesson can be a bit of don't throw stuff at windows, and a bit of when you do stuff you shouldn't you do compromise yourself for things you might not have done

 

[Bletchleyite]

It seems unlikely that something as weak as an egg would break a pane of glass in a double glazed window unless it was already broken. About once every couple of weeks a large bird (usually a pigeon but there have been others) flies straight into the middle of my large double glazed bedroom window at full pelt. It makes a heck of a racket and bounces off dazed (or sometimes dead; they do sometimes feature in my green compost bin), but the window is never damaged. They fly down a path which is opposite, so I suspect this has happened at this sort of frequency for the whole time the house has been there (though I expect when it was single glazed as built there were occasionally breakages), and certainly for the 12 years I've lived in it.

On the other hand, it sends totally the wrong message to try to defend a child who has clearly done wrong, so I am minded to say that whether he did cause the damage or not he should pay for the repair, probably by way of no pocket money for the period of time it would take to pay the cost. It might teach a valuable lesson.

Not a legal opinion but if they were so aware of it already been damaged, why didn't it impact their decision to throw said egg?

Because nobody who eggs a window has made a rational decision to do so?

Kids don't have developed risk assessment ability. That's why we, for example, don't let them drive.

It is however something they need to learn...

 

[dakta]

I was going to ask the age as you could argue an 8 year old nephew is a bit different to a 17 year old nephew doing same thing.

My brother's window is weirdly prone to bird damage, rarely see it myself but happens to him all the time so you could reasonably say damage is unlikely. Problem is you have CCTV of people throwing stuff at your window and a damaged window to show for it it looks a bit bad.

You're also right that kids don't do things like judgement or risk assessments. Usually this sort of thing comes from experiencing consequences in action so this is the moment! (Just in my opinion)

 

[IanD]

Who can afford to waste good eggs these days?

 

[30907]

The homeowner may be trying it on, but I have considerable sympathy with them. Egg is a pig (!) to remove, as I know well, but won't break a window.

Who can afford to waste good eggs these days?

I would be tempted to make the culprits volunteer at a foodbank...

 

[GB]

The window might have already been damaged but it’s entirely possible the egg may have damaged it further.

If I had a stone chip in my car windscreen and some numpty throw and egg and caused a crack I’d be holding the thrower responsible.

I’d suggest he pay up and take it as a life lesson.

 

[Busaholic]

I used to work for the Probation and Aftercare service, but that makes my opinion no better or worse than any other on here. I'm going to totally ignore the possible legal position, which is by no means clear cut as others have pointed out. I'll only say that a seemingly petty act of silliness (or stupidity, depending on the age of the person) can sometimes be the start of coming across the so-called Criminal Justice System at the hard end, and that should be avoided at all costs if at all possible, as it may end in unintended consequences. Pay up and take it as a salutary lesson in life.

 

[najaB]

It seems unlikely that something as weak as an egg would break a pane of glass in a double glazed window unless it was already broken. About once every couple of weeks a large bird (usually a pigeon but there have been others) flies straight into the middle of my large double glazed bedroom window at full pelt. It makes a heck of a racket and bounces off dazed (or sometimes dead; they do sometimes feature in my green compost bin), but the window is never damaged. They fly down a path which is opposite, so I suspect this has happened at this sort of frequency for the whole time the house has been there (though I expect when it was single glazed as built there were occasionally breakages), and certainly for the 12 years I've lived in it.

How do we know that only eggs were thrown?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do we know that only eggs were thrown?

We have no choice but to take the post at face value, and it states that eggs were thrown.

If a rock was in fact thrown, that would have a chance of breaking the window, but don't underestimate the strength of double glazed windows! That's Life (remember that?) did a thing on them years ago to encourage people to spec at least one large opener upstairs (later became building regs, I believe) because they are so hard to break in case of fire, and to fit breaking devices (which you see on some buses) if you didn't. They did a fairly shocking and memorable "acted up" demo of someone "trapped in a fire" throwing all manner of domestic objects at one (including e.g. a chair) and them bouncing off - the only thing that worked was a sharp hammer to one corner repeatedly.

 

[Lucan]

Pay up.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Hi all,
Hope this question is allowed in here, I always find there are quite some intelligent people on this forum.

So at the weekend my nephew and his best mate was out together and for reasons best known to themselves they decided to egg a few houses and one of the homeowners who got egged is threatening to make them pay for the repairs of a damaged window due to the egging. Apparently there is CCTV evidence of them egging this house but my nephew and his mate both maintain the window was already damaged before they threw the egg and I believe they have got an independent witness who can confirm this. So when the bill comes in, is it the homeowners responsibility to prove the window wasn't already damaged before the egging or is it my nephew and his mate's responsibility to prove that the window was damaged before the egging?

Obviously either side are going to struggle to prove either way and I would fully expect my nephew and his mate to pay if they did indeed cause the damage but if the window was already damaged beforehand I don't believe they should be responsible for paying for damages they didn't cause by their wrongdoing!

Any advice would be appreciated please.

Anti social behaviour at the very least. Who cleaned up the mess ? Hope they suffer suitable retibution. Pay up and slink away.

 

[Yew]

Wouldn't modern double glazing break instantly into many shards from a large impact?

 

[alxndr]

Get them to pay it. Whether it was broken before, broken due to the egg, or existing damage was worsened, it's going to be almost impossible to prove, and the egg could well have caused damage.

When I was 15 I smashed multiple school windows in a fit of rage (I wasn't in a good place as a teenager), and as a consequence had to pay several hundred pounds for their replacement. This came out of a Post Office savings account that was set up when I was a baby, so it wasn't money I was accustomed to having, but it still took something from me that I would have otherwise had, and forced me to see the consequences of my actions.

If you get them off the hook that doesn't teach them that lesson, but rather that someone else will make the problem go away. Part of growing up is realising that you have to get yourself out of your own mess and accept the consequences—no one will do it for you.

 

[Trackman]

I remember about 10 years ago a domestic dispute in the street, a person was throwing house bricks at a window but didn't break it. We thought it was highly amusing at the time as the bricks bounced off the window with a 'boing' noise.
I really can't see an egg smashing the outside pane of a double glazed window.
As a footnote: They turned to the windscreen on the car which they managed to smash on the first attempt then scarpered as they must have known the law had been called.

 

[GusB]

Hang them! Transport them! Lock them up for life!

I wonder if the people here making such comments could put their hands on their hearts and say "I never did anything like that when I was young". Even if you didn't, was there ever a situation when you were out with friends and one of them did something that you weren't entirely comfortable with, but it didn't seem so bad that you'd go and grass them up?

Kids do silly things sometimes, especially when they're bored. "Ah, but where are the parents?", I hear you cry. The answer to that is that many parents are working so many hours in order to put food on the table that they physically cannot be there to see what's going on. That is a societal problem.

I'm not condoning the throwing of eggs, stones or any other projectiles at someone's property. I'm not saying this sort of behaviour should be allowed to continue without the perpetrators being made to realise that their actions have consequences either. I would urge everyone to cast their minds back to when they were young and ask "was I so perfect?"

 

[VauxhallandI]

Hang them! Transport them! Lock them up for life!

I wonder if the people here making such comments could put their hands on their hearts and say "I never did anything like that when I was young". Even if you didn't, was there ever a situation when you were out with friends and one of them did something that you weren't entirely comfortable with, but it didn't seem so bad that you'd go and grass them up?

Kids do silly things sometimes, especially when they're bored. "Ah, but where are the parents?", I hear you cry. The answer to that is that many parents are working so many hours in order to put food on the table that they physically cannot be there to see what's going on. That is a societal problem.

I'm not condoning the throwing of eggs, stones or any other projectiles at someone's property. I'm not saying this sort of behaviour should be allowed to continue without the perpetrators being made to realise that their actions have consequences either. I would urge everyone to cast their minds back to when they were young and ask "was I so perfect?"

Correct and the actions of the homeowner sound worse than the stupidity of a child.

 

[DelayRepay]

Hang them! Transport them! Lock them up for life!

I wonder if the people here making such comments could put their hands on their hearts and say "I never did anything like that when I was young". Even if you didn't, was there ever a situation when you were out with friends and one of them did something that you weren't entirely comfortable with, but it didn't seem so bad that you'd go and grass them up?

Kids do silly things sometimes, especially when they're bored. "Ah, but where are the parents?", I hear you cry. The answer to that is that many parents are working so many hours in order to put food on the table that they physically cannot be there to see what's going on. That is a societal problem.

I'm not condoning the throwing of eggs, stones or any other projectiles at someone's property. I'm not saying this sort of behaviour should be allowed to continue without the perpetrators being made to realise that their actions have consequences either. I would urge everyone to cast their minds back to when they were young and ask "was I so perfect?"

I wasn't perfect. I don't recall ever throwing eggs at houses but I did some silly things. What I learned was that actions have consequences, and that it's usually better to 'man up' and take it on the chin rather than try to find someone else to blame or lie your way out of it.

Personally I think the parents or adult relatives trying to help the child absolve themselves of responsibility for their stupidity would send the wrong message.

I am still keen to know whether the child has apologised to the other home owners and cleaned up the mess (I realise they may be advised not to apologise to this home owner at the moment in case it's seen as an admission of liability for the window before all facts are known).

 

[VauxhallandI]

I wasn't perfect. I don't recall ever throwing eggs at houses but I did some silly things. What I learned was that actions have consequences, and that it's usually better to 'man up' and take it on the chin rather than try to find someone else to blame or lie your way out of it.

Personally I think the parents or adult relatives trying to help the child absolve themselves of responsibility for their stupidity would send the wrong message.

I am still keen to know whether the child has apologised to the other home owners and cleaned up the mess (I realise they may be advised not to apologise to this home owner at the moment in case it's seen as an admission of liability for the window before all facts are known).

All very true but one wrong doesn’t excuse the homeowner committing an offence

one I’d a daft lad the other is an adult.