Hi there,
Looking for some advice please ....
In a rush, boarded usual train in hurry, often do so in a rush (childcare, busy life, normal human being who isn't perfect!) have always been able to purchase a ticket on the train no problem, barriers at exit station so couldn't exit without it.
Approached by RPI who I initially thought was a conductor, I asked to purchase a ticket, was asked why I had not already, explained I was in a rush.... name and address taken and told I would receive a letter, not explained what for, asked again to pay for ticket, was refused. Have since received a letter for £71.30, responded saying I didn't understand what this was about as it seemed excessive and didn't make sense given that whilst there are ticket facilities, the queues mean a LOT of people buy tickets on the train.... have since received a letter saying the inspectors report claims I didn't have a ticket and didn't intend to pay the fare, alleged fare evasion.... this is not true at all. Where do I stand? Is this worth continuing to dispute? Have the letter below ready to send... advice please?
Thank you for your most recent letter, however, the further information provided was very shocking and upsetting to me and does not represent the situation so I would therefore like to offer a much more detailed version of the actual events in the hope that you will reconsider the level of fine and potential court action. I apologise if this was not sufficiently clear in my initial response to your first letter but at this point I did not realise that I was being accused of intentionally evading a rail fare.
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The letter dated February 21st clearly states that it was my responsibility to pay the fare, a fact which I have never disputed nor refused to do. I apologised at the time for not realising I was in breach of what I have since discovered to be the National Conditions of Travel. What is shocking and untrue, is that I boarded the train knowingly with the explicit intention to avoid the fare. When initially approached by who I on sight assumed was the ‘conductor’ (who later declared himself as a revenue officer) my request to purchase a ticket for the journey was dismissed without warrant, at which point I was questioned as to why I didn’t have a ticket. I further explained that I had been in a rush on this day and whilst I now understand this is not an excuse which is warranted, at the time I had no idea I was doing anything wrong as on tens of occasions I have been able to purchase a ticket on board, or at the desk on the concourse before the barriers at Leicester, as I and many others who commute from Narborough have done. There is precedent for doing this, and I have never been challenged, warned or penalised on this journey previously hence me not realising I was in any way doing anything wrong by joining the service without a ticket.
Upon explaining that I had been in a rush on the day in question and requesting a ticket for my journey (as is something I have done on multiple occasions) the revenue officer simply replied that I should get there in more time and would have to give my name and address. At no point did I refuse, although felt very bewildered at this stage. When asking what would happen next I was simply told ‘you will get a letter and they will decide what you pay’. Having since received a letter demanding £71.30 to resolve the matter I contacted you to again, explain my situation and query the amount as this seemed excessive and unreasonable given the circumstances which I will now further explain. I looked into the National Conditions of Travel and your policy in much more detail.
It is now clear that the officer could have operated ‘discretion’, given me a warning, provided me with an on the spot penalty notice (amounting to £20) or could have even allowed me to buy a ticket, as I offered at least twice. Instead he has reported me for intent to evade a fare.
As stated in your letter of February 21st;
‘When asked to show a valid ticket, it is alleged that you failed to do so and that you also failed the appropriate fare’
Whilst the first part of the statement is correct, it was always my intention and indeed my request at the time, to purchase a ticket, as I have done on every other occasion I have been unable to get one at the ticket office due to circumstances described.
Given the options available and the fact that at no point was I difficult, argumentative or non compliant and indeed explained that this is something that regularly happens due to very limited services operating at Narborough, brings me to the conclusion that your officer did not offer the level of consideration or act within the training which you state has been provided to him.
‘We understand that things can sometimes go wrong and our staff are trained to consider all the circumstances involved and to use their discretion with the information given. You may be given a warning or the matter could be subject to further investigation.’
Further to this, and in line with the Penalty Fares Guidelines (2018)
‘People travelling on trains without a valid ticket or authority may be doing so with good reason and you should feel you are given the opportunity to explain those reasons to a Collector.
Customers should receive a certain level of customer service when they are challenged on ticketless travel and, as a minimum, they should expect,
• To be spoken to politely and clearly
• To feel confident that they will be given an opportunity to provide an explanation
• To not feel victimized by Collectors
• To have the Penalty Fare process explained to them and to have their questions answered
• The right to a receipt if they pay the Penalty Fare in full or in part, and a statement of information relating to the Penalty Fare’
On this occasion the information I was given was not clear, I was genuinely shocked to be threatened with a summons if I do not pay what I feel is a grossly inflated fine for something which could have been paid for and settled on the spot on the day. I don’t feel I had the option to have my questions answered clearly at the time and it certainly was not clear that I was being reported for alleged fare evasion. Had I understood that I was being accused of fare evasion rather than being given a penalty fare I would have taken far more detailed information from the revenue officer and would have been far more adamant in insisting I pay there and then. Given the complexity of the Conditions of Travel I was unable to check the details at that point and did not want to argue or be late for work. On this basis I provided my details and was told I would receive a letter within 21 days.
I have purchased tickets on the train in the past without any issue, on certain days during which I drop my child at school, I often have very limited time to get a ticket at the station (school gates open just before 8.30, the train is 8.39) and often there is a queue. Whilst you suggest not leaving the queue, this on some days has not been an option for me for fear of being late for work. Given that Cross Country has also set a misleading precedent for selling tickets on board to passengers from Narborough I feel that the action you are instigating is above and beyond what is necessary, particularly as I assumed (I now appreciate incorrectly) that I would be able to pay my fare on board as I have done previously. You may not be aware but Narborough station is a small but very busy one and regularly passengers have to leave the queue and purchase on the train (at no point has any ticket officer ever warned me of legal action even though they knowingly sold me tickets from Narborough to Leicester on the train).
The National Conditions of Rail travel state;
You must have a valid Ticket to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:
6.1.1. At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine in working order; and where notices indicate that you are in a Penalty Fares area you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine at the station where you start your journey – see Condition 10 for more information about Penalty Fares; or
6.1.2. Where you are specifically permitted to board a train service by an authorised member of staff or notice of the Train Company whose service you intend to board; or
6.1.3. You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the station you are departing from are not suitably accessible. In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.
As, on this occasion, I boarded the train as I have done so several times previously without a ticket, I feel I could suggest that I boarded under the precedence set by Cross Country, that I could purchase a ticket on board or at my destination station prior to exiting the barriers. I would however accept that this does not meet the requirements set out above. There are certainly previous occasions where I would have done where people have been queuing and the station staff member has directed customers to board the train and purchase a ticket on board. It is this precedence that genuinely led me to believe I was honestly not doing anything wrong by boarding the train without a ticket in my hand but with the absolute intention and means by which to do so on the train itself.
Furthermore, in the National Conditions of Travel it states;
Travelling without a valid Ticket (which includes, where relevant, any supporting documentation such as a Railcard), or being unable to present them when asked is a serious matter. Condition 6 sets out the only circumstances where you may board a train without a valid Ticket. If you believe that one of these circumstances applies to you, or that there is another reason that led to you travelling without a valid Ticket or being able to present one, then you should explain this to the member of Train Company staff who has asked to inspect your Ticket.
9.2. If you are unable to present a valid Ticket when asked and the conditions set out in Condition 6 do not apply, we are permitted in law to take one of the following measures:
9.2.1. To charge you a Penalty Fare on certain trains and stations (see Condition 10 below);
or 9.2.2. To charge you the full undiscounted anytime single fare to a station directly served by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms, or for a Ticket to a station other than one served by the train that you are on;
or 9.2.3. To report you for prosecution. If you are unable to present a valid Ticket or to pay a fare (including a part payment of a Penalty Fare to the value of the Ticket required) when requested, you will be required to provide your name and address so that the matter can be followed up.
9.3. It is an offence under the Railway Byelaws to fail to provide your name and address when requested.
It is clear that there are other more appropriate options which were available to the revenue officer on the day itself. It is a misrepresentation of events that the revenue officer had ‘no alternative’ but to report the incident as failure to pay the appropriate fare, he had, as outlined above, several options all more appropriate in level of escalation and penalty and before any conversation took place, I asked to purchase a ticket. I was at no point dishonest, at no point refused to cooperate and pay and had the means and funds by which to do so there and then. Having already initiated a conversation when approached for my ticket which clearly established my desire to purchase a ticket, I have instead been treated as if I were evading payment of fare and reported. The officer could have instead followed 9.2.1 or 9.2.2, particularly as I already immediately asked to purchase a ticket the moment one was requested from me. On the basis of the facts outlined above I therefore strongly dispute the suggestion that I was intending to evade a fare and will therefore ask that the allegation made against me is reconsidered, along with the associated penalties presented. I was happy to pay the amount of the fare (£6.40) or the penalty notice on the spot had it been issued on the day but feel that asking me to pay almost 10 times the amount of the original ticket price and threatening legal action without establishing the factual circumstances is both unnecessary and intimidating. At no point did your revenue officer explain that I was being reported for alleged fare evasion, your letter and particularly the subsequent letter have been genuinely shocking and worrying to me.
On the basis of the detail set out in the letter above I would really appreciate for you to review my case and hope that we can come to a mutually acceptable arrangement for solving this matter which wont involve me having to fork out over ten times the rail fare or receiving a court summons which could have lasting and devastating consequences, all for the sake of a fare I genuinely wanted to pay, offered to pay and was refused the opportunity to do so. Please be reassured that this unfortunate situation means I am now well aware of the absolute need to purchase all tickets in advance of travel in line with the National Conditions of Travel, regardless of whether I have been able to purchase the on my journey historically. I trust that my review will be dealt with fairly and look forward to hearing your further response.
Looking for some advice please ....
In a rush, boarded usual train in hurry, often do so in a rush (childcare, busy life, normal human being who isn't perfect!) have always been able to purchase a ticket on the train no problem, barriers at exit station so couldn't exit without it.
Approached by RPI who I initially thought was a conductor, I asked to purchase a ticket, was asked why I had not already, explained I was in a rush.... name and address taken and told I would receive a letter, not explained what for, asked again to pay for ticket, was refused. Have since received a letter for £71.30, responded saying I didn't understand what this was about as it seemed excessive and didn't make sense given that whilst there are ticket facilities, the queues mean a LOT of people buy tickets on the train.... have since received a letter saying the inspectors report claims I didn't have a ticket and didn't intend to pay the fare, alleged fare evasion.... this is not true at all. Where do I stand? Is this worth continuing to dispute? Have the letter below ready to send... advice please?
Thank you for your most recent letter, however, the further information provided was very shocking and upsetting to me and does not represent the situation so I would therefore like to offer a much more detailed version of the actual events in the hope that you will reconsider the level of fine and potential court action. I apologise if this was not sufficiently clear in my initial response to your first letter but at this point I did not realise that I was being accused of intentionally evading a rail fare.
*****************************************************************************
The letter dated February 21st clearly states that it was my responsibility to pay the fare, a fact which I have never disputed nor refused to do. I apologised at the time for not realising I was in breach of what I have since discovered to be the National Conditions of Travel. What is shocking and untrue, is that I boarded the train knowingly with the explicit intention to avoid the fare. When initially approached by who I on sight assumed was the ‘conductor’ (who later declared himself as a revenue officer) my request to purchase a ticket for the journey was dismissed without warrant, at which point I was questioned as to why I didn’t have a ticket. I further explained that I had been in a rush on this day and whilst I now understand this is not an excuse which is warranted, at the time I had no idea I was doing anything wrong as on tens of occasions I have been able to purchase a ticket on board, or at the desk on the concourse before the barriers at Leicester, as I and many others who commute from Narborough have done. There is precedent for doing this, and I have never been challenged, warned or penalised on this journey previously hence me not realising I was in any way doing anything wrong by joining the service without a ticket.
Upon explaining that I had been in a rush on the day in question and requesting a ticket for my journey (as is something I have done on multiple occasions) the revenue officer simply replied that I should get there in more time and would have to give my name and address. At no point did I refuse, although felt very bewildered at this stage. When asking what would happen next I was simply told ‘you will get a letter and they will decide what you pay’. Having since received a letter demanding £71.30 to resolve the matter I contacted you to again, explain my situation and query the amount as this seemed excessive and unreasonable given the circumstances which I will now further explain. I looked into the National Conditions of Travel and your policy in much more detail.
It is now clear that the officer could have operated ‘discretion’, given me a warning, provided me with an on the spot penalty notice (amounting to £20) or could have even allowed me to buy a ticket, as I offered at least twice. Instead he has reported me for intent to evade a fare.
As stated in your letter of February 21st;
‘When asked to show a valid ticket, it is alleged that you failed to do so and that you also failed the appropriate fare’
Whilst the first part of the statement is correct, it was always my intention and indeed my request at the time, to purchase a ticket, as I have done on every other occasion I have been unable to get one at the ticket office due to circumstances described.
Given the options available and the fact that at no point was I difficult, argumentative or non compliant and indeed explained that this is something that regularly happens due to very limited services operating at Narborough, brings me to the conclusion that your officer did not offer the level of consideration or act within the training which you state has been provided to him.
‘We understand that things can sometimes go wrong and our staff are trained to consider all the circumstances involved and to use their discretion with the information given. You may be given a warning or the matter could be subject to further investigation.’
Further to this, and in line with the Penalty Fares Guidelines (2018)
‘People travelling on trains without a valid ticket or authority may be doing so with good reason and you should feel you are given the opportunity to explain those reasons to a Collector.
Customers should receive a certain level of customer service when they are challenged on ticketless travel and, as a minimum, they should expect,
• To be spoken to politely and clearly
• To feel confident that they will be given an opportunity to provide an explanation
• To not feel victimized by Collectors
• To have the Penalty Fare process explained to them and to have their questions answered
• The right to a receipt if they pay the Penalty Fare in full or in part, and a statement of information relating to the Penalty Fare’
On this occasion the information I was given was not clear, I was genuinely shocked to be threatened with a summons if I do not pay what I feel is a grossly inflated fine for something which could have been paid for and settled on the spot on the day. I don’t feel I had the option to have my questions answered clearly at the time and it certainly was not clear that I was being reported for alleged fare evasion. Had I understood that I was being accused of fare evasion rather than being given a penalty fare I would have taken far more detailed information from the revenue officer and would have been far more adamant in insisting I pay there and then. Given the complexity of the Conditions of Travel I was unable to check the details at that point and did not want to argue or be late for work. On this basis I provided my details and was told I would receive a letter within 21 days.
I have purchased tickets on the train in the past without any issue, on certain days during which I drop my child at school, I often have very limited time to get a ticket at the station (school gates open just before 8.30, the train is 8.39) and often there is a queue. Whilst you suggest not leaving the queue, this on some days has not been an option for me for fear of being late for work. Given that Cross Country has also set a misleading precedent for selling tickets on board to passengers from Narborough I feel that the action you are instigating is above and beyond what is necessary, particularly as I assumed (I now appreciate incorrectly) that I would be able to pay my fare on board as I have done previously. You may not be aware but Narborough station is a small but very busy one and regularly passengers have to leave the queue and purchase on the train (at no point has any ticket officer ever warned me of legal action even though they knowingly sold me tickets from Narborough to Leicester on the train).
The National Conditions of Rail travel state;
You must have a valid Ticket to travel before you board a train where there was the opportunity to buy one unless one of the following circumstances applies:
6.1.1. At the station where you start your journey, there is no means of purchasing a Ticket, either because there is no Ticket office open or self-service Ticket machine in working order; and where notices indicate that you are in a Penalty Fares area you purchase a Permit to Travel if there is a working Permit to Travel issuing machine at the station where you start your journey – see Condition 10 for more information about Penalty Fares; or
6.1.2. Where you are specifically permitted to board a train service by an authorised member of staff or notice of the Train Company whose service you intend to board; or
6.1.3. You have a disability and Ticket purchasing arrangements at the station you are departing from are not suitably accessible. In these cases, you must, as soon as you are reasonably able, buy an appropriate Ticket to complete your journey. The price of the Ticket you purchase will be the same as if you had bought a Ticket at the station from which you first departed.
As, on this occasion, I boarded the train as I have done so several times previously without a ticket, I feel I could suggest that I boarded under the precedence set by Cross Country, that I could purchase a ticket on board or at my destination station prior to exiting the barriers. I would however accept that this does not meet the requirements set out above. There are certainly previous occasions where I would have done where people have been queuing and the station staff member has directed customers to board the train and purchase a ticket on board. It is this precedence that genuinely led me to believe I was honestly not doing anything wrong by boarding the train without a ticket in my hand but with the absolute intention and means by which to do so on the train itself.
Furthermore, in the National Conditions of Travel it states;
Travelling without a valid Ticket (which includes, where relevant, any supporting documentation such as a Railcard), or being unable to present them when asked is a serious matter. Condition 6 sets out the only circumstances where you may board a train without a valid Ticket. If you believe that one of these circumstances applies to you, or that there is another reason that led to you travelling without a valid Ticket or being able to present one, then you should explain this to the member of Train Company staff who has asked to inspect your Ticket.
9.2. If you are unable to present a valid Ticket when asked and the conditions set out in Condition 6 do not apply, we are permitted in law to take one of the following measures:
9.2.1. To charge you a Penalty Fare on certain trains and stations (see Condition 10 below);
or 9.2.2. To charge you the full undiscounted anytime single fare to a station directly served by the train that you are on. You will not be entitled to any discounts or special terms, or for a Ticket to a station other than one served by the train that you are on;
or 9.2.3. To report you for prosecution. If you are unable to present a valid Ticket or to pay a fare (including a part payment of a Penalty Fare to the value of the Ticket required) when requested, you will be required to provide your name and address so that the matter can be followed up.
9.3. It is an offence under the Railway Byelaws to fail to provide your name and address when requested.
It is clear that there are other more appropriate options which were available to the revenue officer on the day itself. It is a misrepresentation of events that the revenue officer had ‘no alternative’ but to report the incident as failure to pay the appropriate fare, he had, as outlined above, several options all more appropriate in level of escalation and penalty and before any conversation took place, I asked to purchase a ticket. I was at no point dishonest, at no point refused to cooperate and pay and had the means and funds by which to do so there and then. Having already initiated a conversation when approached for my ticket which clearly established my desire to purchase a ticket, I have instead been treated as if I were evading payment of fare and reported. The officer could have instead followed 9.2.1 or 9.2.2, particularly as I already immediately asked to purchase a ticket the moment one was requested from me. On the basis of the facts outlined above I therefore strongly dispute the suggestion that I was intending to evade a fare and will therefore ask that the allegation made against me is reconsidered, along with the associated penalties presented. I was happy to pay the amount of the fare (£6.40) or the penalty notice on the spot had it been issued on the day but feel that asking me to pay almost 10 times the amount of the original ticket price and threatening legal action without establishing the factual circumstances is both unnecessary and intimidating. At no point did your revenue officer explain that I was being reported for alleged fare evasion, your letter and particularly the subsequent letter have been genuinely shocking and worrying to me.
On the basis of the detail set out in the letter above I would really appreciate for you to review my case and hope that we can come to a mutually acceptable arrangement for solving this matter which wont involve me having to fork out over ten times the rail fare or receiving a court summons which could have lasting and devastating consequences, all for the sake of a fare I genuinely wanted to pay, offered to pay and was refused the opportunity to do so. Please be reassured that this unfortunate situation means I am now well aware of the absolute need to purchase all tickets in advance of travel in line with the National Conditions of Travel, regardless of whether I have been able to purchase the on my journey historically. I trust that my review will be dealt with fairly and look forward to hearing your further response.
