Disruption between Carlisle and Lockerbie - Attempted robbery of Mail train (01/08/2023)

[Falcon1200]

Hopefully, the teenagers in question will get some rehabilitation, in addition to some sort of justice too.

Agree, and while of course their actions were criminal, and dangerous, one has to wonder how they knew which train to target, and when, and how to make it stop out of course. Some level of railway knowledge would be needed.

 

[Dai Corner]

Agree, and while of course their actions were criminal, and dangerous, one has to wonder how they knew which train to target, and when, and how to make it stop out of course. Some level of railway knowledge would be needed.

Nothing that couldn't be learned by reading a forum like this, for example.

I wonder if they'll end up as train planners or signal engineers, like some teenage computer 'hackers' who ended up working in cybersecurity?

 

[The Planner]

Nothing that couldn't be learned by reading a forum like this, for example.

I wonder if they'll end up as train planners or signal engineers, like some teenage computer 'hackers' who ended up working in cybersecurity?

Being able to use RTT does not equal being a train planner, though don't give people ideas....

 

[infobleep]

Being able to use RTT does not equal being a train planner, though don't give people ideas....

It doesn't but it can inspire.

I love of old things such as post cards. This eventually lead to me buying an old map and eventually becoming a cartographer.

Owning an old map doesn't equate to being a cartographer either though.

 

[wilbers]

one has to wonder how they knew which train to target, and when,

Isn't it the case that they didn't know which train to target (and that they only knew it was a mail train?), or at least where on it to target?; given it seems not to have been carrying something like a high value consignment of jewellery.

 

[pdeaves]

Isn't it the case that they didn't know which train to target (and that they only knew it was a mail train?), or at least where on it to target?; given it seems not to have been carrying something like a high value consignment of jewellery.

Maybe kids 'mucking about' and when a train stopped emblazoned with Royal Mail logos, just did the opportunist thing to see what 'loot' was on board?

 

[zwk500]

Isn't it the case that they didn't know which train to target (and that they only knew it was a mail train?), or at least where on it to target?; given it seems not to have been carrying something like a high value consignment of jewellery.

Given they got into the parcels van, it suggests that they were looking for things like games consoles or mobile phones that can be sold quickly onto the casual market with no tracking. Royal Mail still carry a fair amount of packages for online shops, even if many retailers have their own logistics partners.

 

[Dave W]

Agree, and while of course their actions were criminal, and dangerous, one has to wonder how they knew which train to target, and when, and how to make it stop out of course. Some level of railway knowledge would be needed.

I don't disagree regarding forcing the train to stop out of course, but it's not as if the train is particularly inconspicuous.

And in any case, one could quite easily spot a unit with Royal Mail plastered all over the sides, and start to establish a pattern as to when it would appear without any additional help.

When I was a young un in the summer holidays I used to go and stand in my parents' bedroom window at 9:15 (and when a bit older used to go and clamber up to the boundary fence next to the canal bridge) to see the mid-morning Round Oak train. I had no reference to when or why this train turned up, but it always did.

 

[800001]

Maybe kids 'mucking about' and when a train stopped emblazoned with Royal Mail logos, just did the opportunist thing to see what 'loot' was on board?

Mucking about at 1am-2am in middle of countryside

 

[zwk500]

Maybe kids 'mucking about' and when a train stopped emblazoned with Royal Mail logos, just did the opportunist thing to see what 'loot' was on board?

That's quite a specific bit of mucking about. There was a post upthread that suggested the perpetrators were looking to pay back drug dealers, and I wonder if the truth isn't somewhat darker, and that these two were told what to do, when and where by a county lines gang. They were disposable to the gang if they got caught, but if they managed to get hold of a sackful of iphones and maybe a ps5, it'd be a neat little earner.

 

[Dave W]

That's quite a specific bit of mucking about. There was a post upthread that suggested the perpetrators were looking to pay back drug dealers, and I wonder if the truth isn't somewhat darker, and that these two were told what to do, when and where by a county lines gang. They were disposable to the gang if they got caught, but if they managed to get hold of a sackful of iphones and maybe a ps5, it'd be a neat little earner.

Quite so, an interesting and very plausible theory. There is much evidence to the effect of teenagers - vulnerable ones at that, such as those in care as was suggested upthread - being used as pawns in this sort of thing.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Royal Mail trains carry trolleys (‘Yorks’), most of which contain parcels, not bags.
Each York would contain parcels for one specific Mail Centre, having been sorted to individual MCs prior to loading.
Even if potential thieves had info on which train could be carrying ‘bags of iPhones’, they’d need knowledge of
• which specific York contained the high-value items
• which of the 12 carriages that York was in and
• be prepared to offload up 65 other Yorks to get at the one they were seeking

 

[negone]

Given they got into the parcels van, it suggests that they were looking for things like games consoles or mobile phones that can be sold quickly onto the casual market with no tracking. Royal Mail still carry a fair amount of packages for online shops, even if many retailers have their own logistics partners.

Could have been a lot worse, this extreme American example

 

[Peter0124]

Teens arrested after 'tampering' with parcels on Royal Mail train to Warrington

TWO teenagers have been charged with theft after tampering with parcels on a Royal Mail train that is believed to have been heading to Warrington.

www.warringtonguardian.co.uk

The Warrington Guardian understands the destination of the train was Warrington Royal Mail.

“Both young men have been charged with malicious mischief, theft and threatening and abusive behaviour.

This article says the train was travelling to Warrington, when it actually came from there in reality.

Though it also says the teenagers were charged with 'threatening and abusive behaviour'

 

[SuspectUsual]

Royal Mail still carry a fair amount of packages for online shops, even if many retailers have their own logistics partners

Royal Mail is the logistics partner (or one of a few) for some very, very big companies - it isn't just the preserve of SMEs

 

[Falcon1200]

I don't disagree regarding forcing the train to stop out of course, but it's not as if the train is particularly inconspicuous.

True, but they would have had to know when it was due to pass their chosen location for signalling interference, and also hope that it was not running early or late! Unless, as suggested above, there were others involved.

 

[edwin_m]

Given they got into the parcels van, it suggests that they were looking for things like games consoles or mobile phones that can be sold quickly onto the casual market with no tracking.

I'd like to think that mobiles stolen in transit would be tracked or bricked.

 

[156421]

This article says the train was travelling to Warrington, when it actually came from there in reality.

They must have been sharing notes with BBC!!

 

[takno]

Royal Mail is the logistics partner (or one of a few) for some very, very big companies - it isn't just the preserve of SMEs

They are a logistics partner for Amazon, although judging from when they get used it's only for the lowest value parcels. I'm not saying you couldn't strike lucky, but frankly it would be much easier and less risky as well as likely more profitable to just attack a single delivery van towards the start of its route. Clearly nobody involved is any kind of criminal mastermind, but the more seriously anybody takes this, the more likely that further sets of dim-witted individuals try the same thing in future.

 

[SuspectUsual]

They are a logistics partner for Amazon, although judging from when they get used it's only for the lowest value parcels. I'm not saying you couldn't strike lucky, but frankly it would be much easier and less risky as well as likely more profitable to just attack a single delivery van towards the start of its route. Clearly nobody involved is any kind of criminal mastermind, but the more seriously anybody takes this, the more likely that further sets of dim-witted individuals try the same thing in future.

One of my ex-employers uses it for high volumes of very desirable and easy to sell on leisurewear and footwear. Average basket price was about £125 for web sales

The trick would be to steal pre-sortation, as after that point its a bit of a lottery as to what you'd get. Depends how sophisticated the thieves are I guess

 

[TomG]

I think it may have been this train which was robbed. Its the only mail train at Lockerbie at about 01:45.

Realtime Trains | 1S55 2330 Warrington Royal Mail(Dbs) to Shieldmuir Mail Terminal | 31/07/2023

Real-time train running information for 1S55 2330 departure from Warrington Royal Mail(Dbs) to Shieldmuir Mail Terminal on 31/07/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

In this situation would it not have been better for the driver to just continue at caution past the signal (which he identified had clearly been tampered with) and drive in line of sight at 15mph to the next signal to ensure his own safety? Rather than staying put and potentially being attacked. I know railway safety is based on following strict rules and procedures for the safety of all, but surely he could have explained his actions later.

No.

You need to contact/get clearance from control. The driver wouldn't know if it was safe to proceed or not. Regardless of whether or not it was clear the signal had been tampered with. For example, if the driver had just continued pootling down the track and come across (for example) a point switched against the train caused a derailment then that would be a lot more severe. Especially if you ended up having another train crash into the wreckage.

 

[Ibex]

Not wishing to further extend the Network Rail logs conversation too much further but NR are subject to the Freedom of Information Act and they have released CCIL logs before (some are on WhatDoTheyKnow) so if anyone is that desperate to read it you can acquire it that way.

See here for example for a public request made last year... Apologies for returning to that subject. Anyway...

 

[The Puddock]

In this situation would it not have been better for the driver to just continue at caution past the signal (which he identified had clearly been tampered with) and drive in line of sight at 15mph to the next signal to ensure his own safety? Rather than staying put and potentially being attacked. I know railway safety is based on following strict rules and procedures for the safety of all, but surely he could have explained his actions later.

No.

You need to contact/get clearance from control. The driver wouldn't know if it was safe to proceed or not. Regardless of whether or not it was clear the signal had been tampered with. For example, if the driver had just continued pootling down the track and come across (for example) a point switched against the train caused a derailment then that would be a lot more severe. Especially if you ended up having another train crash into the wreckage.

Control (regardless of whether you mean Network Rail Control or TOC Control) cannot instruct a train driver to pass a signal to at danger. The only person* who can authorise a driver to pass a signal at danger is the signaller. The only roles who are allowed to give the signaller’s instructions to pass a signal at danger indirectly to a driver are a pilot, a handsignaller or a shunter.


*except in one very specific circumstance when a train driver can use their own authority to pass a signal at danger, which is not relevant to the mail robbery incident

 

[WAB]

Not wishing to further extend the Network Rail logs conversation too much further but NR are subject to the Freedom of Information Act and they have released CCIL logs before (some are on WhatDoTheyKnow) so if anyone is that desperate to read it you can acquire it that way.

See here for example for a public request made last year... Apologies for returning to that subject. Anyway...

Exactly, and that gives an opportunity for sensitive information to be redacted. Too many people have access to various NWR and TOC logs as it stands.

 

[father_jack]

Exactly, and that gives an opportunity for sensitive information to be redacted. Too many people have access to various NWR and TOC logs as it stands.

It was a bit slack quoting the log on twitter but it was well cropped so people getting all het up about it is futile.

You can nearly see as much on the actual delay report and Genius log ins are widely shared. Some TOCs don't even withdraw them when staff leave. I knew a guard who left under a cloud and became a signaller, he got caught out delaying the same people all the time because he could still see the diagrams......

 

[The Puddock]

The incident was restricted in CCIL yesterday afternoon.

 

[MadMac]

What intrigued me about the log was that it stated that the initial report came via Motherwell SC, which closed about four years ago.....

 

[Dai Corner]

What intrigued me about the log was that it stated that the initial report came via Motherwell SC, which closed about four years ago.....

Presumably it's now a workstation in a larger signalling centre but performing the same function?

 

[Dfatcontroller]

What intrigued me about the log was that it stated that the initial report came via Motherwell SC, which closed about four years ago.....

Log states "Shift Manager Motherwell" which is accurate.

Shift Manager of the Motherwell section of WSSC.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

What exactly were they hoping to achieve? At least the Great Train Robbery had a plan to steal money, but I am struggling to understand the motives here. Correct me if I am wrong, but hasn't money ceased to be carried by Royal Mail trains? and even if it were, it would be highly likely they would use dye packs to protect the money.

I don't suppose you'll find dye packs in someones birthday card.