Disruption on Minffordd - Spalding journey on split tickets

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jp347

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Hi

I've had a good look around the forum and found lots of opinions on this, but one thing I haven't found much about is what if the delay results in the last train being missed.

On Thursday 12/4/12 using 3 tickets:
  • MFF-BHM depart 10:02 arrive 14:26 (on time)
  • BHM-Euston depart 16:33 arrive 18:49 (actual arrival 19:24:52)
  • Kings Cross - SPA depart 19:30 arrive 20:54 (connection missed due to late arrival at Euston)

The 19:30 from Kings Cross is the last service of the day with a connection to Spalding, so I was given a "chitty" (I think that's what he said) to go on the 20:05 to PBO and told it was tough and I couldn't go to Spalding today by the man at Kings Cross ticket office. Is that correct?

Peterborough were much more helpful and arranged transport to Spalding, but did they have to or were they just being very helpful?

jp347
 
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Sir_Clagalot

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If you have a ticket to a destination and through no fault of your own you miss the last connection then I think they have to get you there by any reasonable means, as the ticket is a contract between the bearer (ie yourself) and the TOC(s) involved to get you from the origin to the destination stations and they have to honour that.
 

transportphoto

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Key:

  • MFF - Minffordd
  • BHM - Birmingham N St
  • SPA - Spalding

Under condition 19 of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage you may use a combination of tickets to form one journey. Under condition 43, if you are unable to get to your destination by use of the train companies you are entitled to use, due to circumstances within the control of the rail industry - the rail company is supposed to, if they reasonably can, try to get you to your destination by other means (usually a taxi paid for by the industry) or provide overnight accommodation for you.

If you were delayed by over half an hour in getting to your destination, send a letter to the TOC that delayed you (either LM or Virgin) seeking Delay Repay compensation.

TP
 

yorkie

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Hi

I've had a good look around the forum and found lots of opinions on this, but one thing I haven't found much about is what if the delay results in the last train being missed.
You can try Google (with site:railforums.co.uk) as it can yield better results at times, than the forum software search engine.
On Thursday 12/4/12 using 3 tickets:
  • MFF-BHM depart 10:02 arrive 14:26 (on time)
  • BHM-Euston depart 16:33 arrive 18:49 (actual arrival 19:24:52)
  • Kings Cross - SPA depart 19:30 arrive 20:54 (connection missed due to late arrival at Euston)

The 19:30 from Kings Cross is the last service of the day with a connection to Spalding, so I was given a "chitty" (I think that's what he said) to go on the 20:05 to PBO and told it was tough and I couldn't go to Spalding today by the man at Kings Cross ticket office. Is that correct?

Peterborough were much more helpful and arranged transport to Spalding, but did they have to or were they just being very helpful?

jp347
Some King's Cross ticket office staff are, as I mentioned in a thread a couple of days ago, a disgrace compared to to the staff at Peterborough, Doncaster, York etc. It is unsurprising that you were given incorrect information at King's Cross.

I encourage you to write to EC about the incorrect information you were given. I would ensure the letter is very positive about the staff at Peterborough and is for their information so that they can ensure staff at King's Cross are giving out correct information and not letting the Company down.

Did you get the name of the person at King's Cross? I wonder if he's one of the same people who others have concerns about. Please PM me.
 

blacknight

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Staff at Kings Cross cannot state for definately onward travel will be given as a right, that decision as to be made at intermediate station otherwise you get situation of man Kings Cross said there would be...So staff at Kings Cross are correct to state we can get you as far as in this case Peterborough
Section 19 You may use 2 or tickets to complete your journey no time limit is given to get you there, option of next service & delay repay route.
Section 43 states overnight accomodation maybe given no mention of hotel reasonable could mean nice warm waiting room & use of station washroom. You may not like it be an offer as been made to you.
Only instance where road transport would provided if like in OP case LM are minded to give to give their permission for a taxi to be used, why should EC be paying cost of taxi for LM late running?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Did you get the name of the person at King's Cross? I wonder if he's one of the same people who others have concerns about. Please PM me.
Sorry Yorkie you are being to sound bit like the U Boat Captain on Dads Army:lol:
 
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Deerfold

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Staff at Kings Cross cannot state for definately onward travel will be given as a right, that decision as to be made at intermediate station otherwise you get situation of man Kings Cross said there would be...So staff at Kings Cross are correct to state we can get you as far as in this case Peterborough
Section 19 You may use 2 or tickets to complete your journey no time limit is given to get you there, option of next service & delay repay route.
Section 43 states overnight accomodation maybe given no mention of hotel reasonable could mean nice warm waiting room & use of station washroom. You may not like it be an offer as been made to you.
Only instance where road transport would provided if like in OP case LM are minded to give to give their permission for a taxi to be used, why should EC be paying cost of taxi for LM late running?
It's a little hard to read but I think you're saying that East Coast could choose either to provide a taxi or somewhere to stay.

Surely it would be for EC to pay for the taxi (if this is what they provide) and if the delay was LM's fault EC would be able to claim that cost back from LM? This should not be a problem for the passenger.
 

Greenback

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It's a little hard to read but I think you're saying that East Coast could choose either to provide a taxi or somewhere to stay.

Surely it would be for EC to pay for the taxi (if this is what they provide) and if the delay was LM's fault EC would be able to claim that cost back from LM? This should not be a problem for the passenger.
Indeed. When I worked at Reading we would get people to their destination by taxi if necessary, should they have missed the last connection due to a late inbound service.

I am also a little confused by blacknight's statement that King's Cross staff cannot say that onward travel will be provided. If that is the case, then by the same emasure, surely they shouldn't be able to say that it WON't be proved either?
 

blacknight

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:lol:
I am also a little confused by blacknight's statement that King's Cross staff cannot say that onward travel will be provided. If that is the case, then by the same emasure, surely they shouldn't be able to say that it WON't be proved either?
emasure is that a new government benifit for school leavers now I am confused:lol:sorry having been employed since school & not gone into higher education. I am not used to using the word benefit so would not known how to spell it thanks for correcting me Yorkie:lol:
What we don't know from OP is if LM phoned ahead in advance to Peterborough to give authority to use road transport, staff at Kings Cross & OP would have not known if call had been made.
Also KGX issued a "chitty" which suggests OP was travelling on split AP tickets & correctly followed proceedure as per guidelines for passenger to travel on later service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Surely it would be for EC to pay for the taxi (if this is what they provide) and if the delay was LM's fault EC would be able to claim that cost back from LM? This should not be a problem for the passenger.
Still trying to think of another industry where company A is expected to pay up front for company B mistake & claim it back at later date, what if company B then refuses to make refund to company A are they then left out of pocket.
 
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Bungle73

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Still trying to think of another industry where company A is expected to pay up front for company B mistake & claim it back at later date, what if company B then refuses to make refund to company A are they then left out of pocket.
It happens all the time: you buy something from a shop and there's a problem. You claim from the shop, who then claims from the manufacturer. Or: person 1 has a contract for a service with company A, provided by company B. There's a problem, so person 1 claims from company A, who then claims from company B.
 

jp347

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I don't believe Peterborough had been contacted by LM (as LM were unaware that it was causing a connection problem for me - rather speak to them I legged it from Euston to Kings Cross in the hope of it being a couple of minutes late and therefore getting it).

Peterborough called someone and obtained the LM num ber to get in touch and speak to them; they sorted it there and then with LM from what I understand.
 

jp347

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Hi

I have now heard back from LM re Delay Repay:

Dear ......

Thank you for writing to us with regards to your journey between Birmingham New Street and London Euston on 12 April 2012.

I am sorry to hear that the journey did not go as planned. I can understand your disappointment at the delay you have incurred and I would like to apologise for the inconvenience this will have caused you.

Under our delay repay scheme we offer compensation to passengers for delays to their journeys of 30 minutes or more. This amount is 25% of the cost of a return ticket for delays between 30-59 minutes (50% for a single ticket). This increases to 50% of the ticket price for a delay of 60 minutes or more (100% for a single ticket). Hold ups in excess of 2 hours incur a full refund.

I have therefore, enclosed rail travel vouchers to the value of £7.00 with this correspondence. They can be put towards the cost of your next train journey, either with ourselves, or another train company. Vouchers are valid for 12 months.

In addition, we are unable to provide compensation for the £19.65 ticket valid from London Euston to Spalding. I regret that we are only able to compensate you for the ticket on which you experienced the delays. If you had held one valid ticket from Minffordd straight through to Spalding then compensation would have been based upon this entire ticket cost. Unfortunately, when tickets are split, delay repay compensation is only applicable on the ticket which was valid for the train which experienced delays in this case, the Birmingham New Street to London Euston ticket.

I regret that train companies are not liable for the taxi costs you have mentioned in this letter. These are part of what are termed 'consequential losses'. I realise this may come as a disappointment to you but this is outlined in the National Rail Conditions under section H, Train Service Disruption. Copies of the conditions are available at all staffed stations and at www.nationalrail.co.uk

We appreciate that you have taken the trouble to let us know about your journey. We monitor our performance very closely in a bid to provide the best possible service we can. Your information is carefully recorded and assists us greatly in this process.

I hope you will continue to use the rail service and enjoy much smoother journeys in the future.

Yours sincerely

....
Customer Relations Advisor

Having done as they suggest and read the NRCoC again it seems to me that condition 43 says that getting to a final destination is not a 'consequential loss':
"43. Help from Train Companies if you are stranded
If disruption caused by circumstances within the control of a Train Company or a Rail
Service Company leaves you stranded before you have reached your destination and the
Train Company whose trains you are entitled to use is unable to get you to that destination
by other means, any Train Company which is in a position to help will, if it reasonably can,
either arrange to get you to that destination, or provide overnight accommodation for you."
(although they failed to understand that East Coast paid for the taxi and billed them anyway!).

Is it worth writing back to them explaining that it is all one journey under NRCoC, so it was not a journey from BHM to London as they suggest?

Jp347
 

AlterEgo

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That's not correct by London Midland. They should take into account all tickets used to make the one "journey". Telephone them on Monday and they should correct their response. If necessary, talk to a supervisor or manager.
 

IanD

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Utter blocks. You are due compensation on the cost of all three tickets as they were used for 'one journey' - plus the cost of getting you to your destination having caused you to miss your last connection. I'd be on the phone to them first thing Monday and follow up with a strongly worded letter.
 

yorkie

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Just write to them again and keep writing until they acknowledge the correct position.

Example concise letter:-
Dear .....,

I am very surprised that you believe I am not entitled to Delay Repay for my entire journey. This is clearly incorrect. For the avoidance of doubt, the National Rail Conditions of Carriage point 19 states that two or more tickets may be used for one journey.

I will give you further opportunity to re-consider your position, before taking the matter further.

Yours sincerely,
I've also alerted London_Midland.

I know someone else who works at LM HQ but I'll only ask him if there's still no movement from LM by the end of this week.
 
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Thanks for raising this.

Condition 19 states:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.


In the case in question, as the ticket was split in London, I am not sure that 19 (b) applies, as one ticket was valid into Euston and the other ticket was for a journey from Kings Cross? We'll obviously check that before responding to the letter.

That said, we do need to ensure our policy adheres to the 'journey' rule in general, and I'll raise it with the team. If we're doing things incorrectly, we obviously need to make changes immediately.

Best wishes,

David
 

John @ home

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In the case in question, as the ticket was split in London, I am not sure that 19 (b) applies, as one ticket was valid into Euston and the other ticket was for a journey from Kings Cross? We'll obviously check that before responding to the letter.
This information appears to be relevant.
Advance Fares FAQs said:
Q22 - Can a passenger travel on any trains other than the one on which they are reserved, without changing the booking?

A: The following principles apply. ...

2). Once the journey has begun. If the passenger is delayed and the rail industry or its partners (as shown below) is at fault, which should be checked with your Control Office, change to another train of the same company is allowed to get them to their destination with the least delay. This is irrespective of combinations of rail tickets held. Examples are: ...

Included: are passengers travelling on valid: ...

  • Combination of domestic rail & partner tickets ...
e.g. Advance ticket Bristol-Paddington plus tube single ticket plus Advance ticket Kings Cross to Hull. ...
 

MarkyMarkD

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In any case, the fastest way to get between Euston and Kings Cross is to walk. There is no need for a tube connection.

Walking connections are indisputably permitted between certain London Terminals (and, indeed certain non-London stations) as part of a through journey.
 

IanD

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Instead of chiding the OP for not buying a through ticket, they should congratulate him as he has undoubtably saved them having to fork out the £80+ he would have paid for a single through ticket.

His whole journey was delayed so there should be no question that they are liable for refunding the whole cost of all tickets used.

Personally, I'm disappointed that London_Midland should think that arriving at and departing from different London Terminals should be at all relevant.
 

yorkie

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The tickets joined at London Terminals, there is no gap. You can walk between terminals, take a taxi, or use whatever means you wish, however the minimum interchange times do assume the transfer is by LU (with the exception of Kings Cross - St Pancras).

It is in LMs interests to ensure that customer rights on combinations of tickets are maintained, as LM (along with GC, HT etc) will understandably want their LM Only products to be used for the portion of the journey that is with them.

If customers had reason to believe that combinations of tickets had less rights than a through ticket, they may be more likely to buy inter-available tickets and use Virgin instead (depending on the exact journey, of course).

For example the only fares from Welwyn to Stoke are +Any Permitted or +VWC & Connections. For LM to get a significant sum of revenue from a passenger doing this journey, they would need the passenger to use tickets to/from London Terminals.

TOCs that benefit from "split ticketing" are advised to ensure that customer rights are maintained and expanded, when they send representatives to ATOC meetings, when dealing with customers, and when giving training and instructions to their staff :)
 
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Don't get me wrong, I wasn't disputing the London Terminals issue, I was seeking clarification! As far as I can see, the confusion seems to stem from the definition of a journey.

As one of the 1st companies to offer Delay Repay, we were led to believe that the ticket constituted the journey in our discussions with the powers that be as this is how it works on the airlines.

However, the definition of a journey in the National Conditions of Carriage is obviously different. As a TOC that tends to have very good value long distance tickets, we benefit more than some operators from split ticketing, and we therefore probably have more to gain from this than the revenue 'lost' through additional Delay Repay payments (since non split tickets would probably not have involved a journey with us, so we wouldn't have been liable for any of the Delay Repay).

Once again, thanks for the advice and insight. It's great to be able to resolve things quickly by sharing knowledge.

David.
 

jp347

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Hi

I have now a had a reply and some more vouchers, so evidently London Midland has listened and considered. It was actually a very nice letter and so I am now happy.

Thank you very much for your help on here.

JP347
 
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