DLR bottlenecks

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90sWereBetter

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The most obvious bottleneck must be the single track between Pudding Mill and Bow Church, but the service on this branch is only every 10 minutes, so presumably it's not a pressing problem.

As the service on the DLR has increased, I've always felt that Canary Wharf might end up being a bottleneck, and as there's no realistic way of expanding the station, this will limit the amount of capacity to Lewisham and if any further extensions are built from there.

The remodeling of Tower Gateway seems a bit odd in the sense that it's been cut from having two terminating tracks to just one.
 
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There is no room currently for a doubling of the track to Bow church so this will always be single which is why to try an dincrease capacity they have reverted to 2 car consists on this route.

unsure why you think that of Canary Wharf though as theres four tracks there and if they were going to extend anything down in Lewisham then they would just extened the Stratford terminators onwards to free up extra capacity through the station.

The Tower gateway thing may seem bad but it gives them a place to put a failed train and recover service shouldl one breakdown that end without having to find a space to take it back to Poplar.
 

Polarbear

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The section between Pudding Mill Lane & Bow Church will be doubled in due course, which will allow frequency to be improved.

Tower Gateway was rebuilt a few years back as the island platform couldn't cope with the flow of passengers, especially at peak times. The current layout allows for boarding on one side as well as disembarking on the other side at the same time. This actually increased capacity overall.

As for Canary Wharf, I doubt there is much that can be done now as the site is hemmed in by buildings. A far cry from the early days of the DLR when it was (briefly) a 2 platform station in the middle of nowhere!
 

306024

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The DLR is as flexible as it comes.

The service between Stratford and Bow Church is more frequent than every 10 minutes in the peak, nearer every five, so frequent I've never studied the timetable. Normally trains pass at Pudding Mill Lane but if things get out of course it doesn't last long.

Will Stratford to Pudding Mill Lane be doubled too?
 
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SpacePhoenix

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Peak times does Fenchurch Street use all its platforms? if it doesn't could the DLR long term make use of the platform nearest to the current DLR tracks?
 

306024

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Peak times does Fenchurch Street use all its platforms? if it doesn't could the DLR long term make use of the platform nearest to the current DLR tracks?

Yes it does. Game over there.

Some rough maths to explain:

20 trains per hour
4 platforms
5 trains in the peak hour per platform equals 12 minutes per train
Allow 3 minutes to re-occupy the platform and that leaves a maximum theoretical turnround time of 9 minutes.
And then you have to path it all.
 
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Nym

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The bottleneck IMO would be Westferry Jcns, since there is a problem with the 3 unit trains and the platform re-occupation Limit of Authority overlapping the facing points beyond the platform, so the points need to be locked before the platform can be occupied by a train at full speed, hence the multiple attempts to get into the platform when it's busy.
 

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The section between Pudding Mill Lane & Bow Church will be doubled in due course, which will allow frequency to be improved.

!

No it won't. They have no plans for doing so as it would involve widening viaducts and other massive engineering works which would encroach on the fenchurch st line and move the track too close to the new housing which wouldn't be allowed and that it would shut down the whole line for so long its unfathomable for such a busy route.
 

edwin_m

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The opening of Crossrail provides a much quicker route between Canary Wharf and Bank, one of the DLR's busiest flows today which should become much less busy after that. Hopefully this happens before the Bank rebuilding starts to shut bits of that station! Instead DLR is likely to pick up more feeder journeys interchanging with Crossrail at Canary Wharf, Poplar (assuming they get a walkway sorted out) or Custom House. This will probably result in a rehash of routeing, frequencies and perhaps also train lengths.
 

SpacePhoenix

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I think probably the next major thing that will happen with the DLR would probably be introducing new units the same length as 3 of the current units coupled together so that people can walk through the train end to end. Have all stations that can physically be extended to handle 3 unit/car trains already been extended or are there still some left that can physically be extended?
 

Peter Mugridge

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I think probably the next major thing that will happen with the DLR would probably be introducing new units the same length as 3 of the current units coupled together so that people can walk through the train end to end.

I believe that is already in their long term planning and the next order they place may well be for units of such length.
 

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I believe that is already in their long term planning and the next order they place may well be for units of such length.

This is correct. They should soon have a finalised design and then they will procure them. Still more than likely based on the S stock
 

moogal

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I think probably the next major thing that will happen with the DLR would probably be introducing new units the same length as 3 of the current units coupled together so that people can walk through the train end to end. Have all stations that can physically be extended to handle 3 unit/car trains already been extended or are there still some left that can physically be extended?

The new walk-through trains are definitely on the cards from what I hear.

There's still some stations that for some reason aren't 3-car length despite not being restricted like (say) Cutty Sark - for example, Royal Albert is still only a 2-car station despite being on a relatively straight viaduct. I assume it was skipped for its relatively low usage?

And the Stratford - Canary Wharf service is every 4 minutes in the peaks, using 2-car units (except the ones in the AM peak which continue to Lewisham) so I'd expect longer trains to be the first solution to any overcrowding on that route before the vastly more complex job of doubling.
 

ScotGG

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How much difference will Crossrail make to DLR usage from Lewisham?

Lewisham DLR sees many people changing from Southeastern coming from the Sidcup and Bexleyheath lines, not the Abbey Wood line (which is the only SE line that interchanges with Crossrail). The Abbey Wood line doesn't go via lewisham in the peaks (this changes temporarily from Aug this year but will revert back in 2018), and getting from areas on the Sidcup and Bexleyheath lines to Abbey Wood by bus is hampered by very slow journeys and inadequate roads. So most people who use SE then DLR will continue to do so.
 
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Polarbear

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No it won't. They have no plans for doing so as it would involve widening viaducts and other massive engineering works which would encroach on the fenchurch st line and move the track too close to the new housing which wouldn't be allowed and that it would shut down the whole line for so long its unfathomable for such a busy route.

Ah sorry. The line between Stratford & Pudding Mill Lane has been done of course, but the bit between Pudding Mill lane & Bow Church would be "challenging" to say the least.

I must admit I thought I had read somewhere that the eventual intention was to double track the whole line.
 

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No, its not even on their long term plans now really. They want to build a new depot and go over the Thames on a new east river crossing.
 

Busaholic

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How much difference will Crossrail make to DLR usage from Lewisham?

Lewisham DLR sees many people changing from Southeastern coming from the Sidcup and Bexleyheath lines, not the Abbey Wood line (which is the only SE line that interchanges with Crossrail). The Abbey Wood line doesn't go via lewisham in the peaks (this changes temporarily from Aug this year but will revert back in 2018), and getting from areas on the Sidcup and Bexleyheath lines to Abbey Wood by bus is hampered by very slow journeys and inadequate roads. So most people who use SE then DLR will continue to do so.

I'd agree with all that. It'll be Woolwich Arsenal that sees less usage of DLR, for a time anyway.
 

Abpj17

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The opening of Crossrail provides a much quicker route between Canary Wharf and Bank, one of the DLR's busiest flows today which should become much less busy after that. Hopefully this happens before the Bank rebuilding starts to shut bits of that station! Instead DLR is likely to pick up more feeder journeys interchanging with Crossrail at Canary Wharf, Poplar (assuming they get a walkway sorted out) or Custom House. This will probably result in a rehash of routeing, frequencies and perhaps also train lengths.

How is it quicker? Crossrail is Moorgate/Blackfriars, not Bank. The journey times will be pretty much the same (excluding rush hour queues to get down to platforms at Bank? If going direct. I agree if you are changing at Bank for the DLR from the circle or northern, people may prefer to change onto crossrail at e.g. farringdon or moorgate/liverpool street.
 

SpacePhoenix

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What's generally quicker at the moment from Bank to Canary Wharf?

Bank-London Bridge (Northern Line) then London Bridge-Canary Wharf (Jubilee Line) or DLR all the way?
 

edwin_m

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How is it quicker? Crossrail is Moorgate/Blackfriars, not Bank. The journey times will be pretty much the same (excluding rush hour queues to get down to platforms at Bank? If going direct. I agree if you are changing at Bank for the DLR from the circle or northern, people may prefer to change onto crossrail at e.g. farringdon or moorgate/liverpool street.

Sorry, I wason't completely clear there. I meant between Canary Wharf and the City area, so Bank for DLR versus Liverpool Street/Moorgate for Crossrail. These stations are close enough together than many people using Bank will find it more convenient to go via Liverpool Street instead. As well as onward connections, Crossrail also offers a wider range of through jourenys further west.
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What's generally quicker at the moment from Bank to Canary Wharf?

Bank-London Bridge (Northern Line) then London Bridge-Canary Wharf (Jubilee Line) or DLR all the way?

My unscientific opinion is that even when already on the Northern from KXSP, it's slightly quicker to change at Bank to DLR than to use the Jubilee from London Bridge. The walk at London Bridge is longer but if it's rush hour (usually not in my case) Bank is probably more crowded. It also depends on ultimate destination at Canary Wharf (mine is closer to the DLR). And in my view sitting at the front as it goes over the rollercoaster at Poplar is much preferable to being on the Tube.
 
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yeah the connection at bank is simply up/down a flight of stairs and with them being frequent I would go that way.
 

DynamicSpirit

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yeah the connection at bank is simply up/down a flight of stairs and with them being frequent I would go that way.

Doesn't that flight of stairs become one way during rush hours? I seem to recall getting caught out once and by following the signs I ended up on a massive walk via Monument station to get between the DLR and the Northern Line. Never went that way to get to work again!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How much difference will Crossrail make to DLR usage from Lewisham?

Lewisham DLR sees many people changing from Southeastern coming from the Sidcup and Bexleyheath lines, not the Abbey Wood line (which is the only SE line that interchanges with Crossrail). The Abbey Wood line doesn't go via lewisham in the peaks (this changes temporarily from Aug this year but will revert back in 2018), and getting from areas on the Sidcup and Bexleyheath lines to Abbey Wood by bus is hampered by very slow journeys and inadequate roads. So most people who use SE then DLR will continue to do so.

(My highlighting). Would that route really lose its service in the peaks after 2018? I can see why they don't run it now: The trains would be overwhelmed given that, when they exist, they are currently by far the most sensible way of getting from the Woolwich Line to Waterloo/Charing Cross: With only 1 train every half hour, they wouldn't be able to cope with the numbers.

But presumably when the bottlenecks at London Bridge are sorted out and easy interchange becomes possible again there, that won't be an issue. And in 2019 CrossRail will also remove some of those passengers from the Woolwich line who are heading for the West End. Why would you not want to run those trains after that? Connecting Woolwich/etc. to Lewisham directly provides a really useful interchange for quite a few journeys that don't go into central London.
 
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