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Do first class ticket holders get compensated if their train only conveys standard class?

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Grumbler

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I was at Bethnal Green yesterday for a couple of hours or so (off peak), and recorded 004, 007 and 008 on Norwich services, and 103, 104, 105, 108, 110 on Stansteds. So perhaps GA are getting on top of sending out appropriate units for each route?
If you have a first-class ticket but a Stansted shows up, will GA downgrade your ticket and give you a refund?
 
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trebor79

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If you have a first-class ticket but a Stansted shows up, will GA downgrade your ticket and give you a refund?
Yes, you are entitled to a refund of the difference in price between the first class and corresponding standard class fare.
I've done it in the past when a 321 subbed for a hauled set.
 

Grumbler

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Yes, you are entitled to a refund of the difference in price between the first class and corresponding standard class fare.
I've done it in the past when a 321 subbed for a hauled set.
Do they allow the opposite, i.e. pay the conductor to upgrade to first class having bought a standard class ticket?
 

yorkie

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Do they allow the opposite, i.e. pay the conductor to upgrade to first class having bought a standard class ticket?
If a train is advertised as conveying only standard accommodation, no upgrade can be charged.
 

Grumbler

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If a train is advertised as conveying only standard accommodation, no upgrade can be charged.
I'd prefer to pay for the upgrade once I am certain of first class being available rather than have the hassle of claiming a refund when the first class advertised is missing.
 

py_megapixel

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I'd prefer to pay for the upgrade once I am certain of first class being available rather than have the hassle of claiming a refund when the first class advertised is missing
If a train is advertised as conveying only standard accommodation, no upgrade can be charged.
In most cases I'm reasonably sure you don't need to pay for an upgrade if first class was not advertised in the timetable because that would mean the first class section would be declassified. In other words, not only can they not charge you for an upgrade but you are allowed to sit in First anyway.
 

skyhigh

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If a train is advertised as conveying only standard accommodation, no upgrade can be charged.
I suppose it works the opposite way round too - so if you've bought a first class ticket on a route where some trains operate first class accommodation (say Leeds-York) and you choose to get a train that is not timetabled to have first class accommodation, you're not entitled to any refund?
 

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I suppose it works the opposite way round too - so if you've bought a first class ticket on a route where some trains operate first class accommodation (say Leeds-York) and you choose to get a train that is not timetabled to have first class accommodation, you're not entitled to any refund?

Correct, yes. You can only claim money back when the train you use was timetabled to have First Class but in fact didn't (or it was locked out of use for some reason, or with at least one of the InterCity TOCs there was no free seat in it).
 

Tazi Hupefi

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Out of interest, if a train has first class seating, but it's being used on a service that only normally conveys standard class seats - it seems from the above that they can't charge a "first class upgrade" fee, but presumably, if they wanted to, they could just prevent anyone from occupying that first class area of the train / lock the doors to that coach?
 

Bletchleyite

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Out of interest, if a train has first class seating, but it's being used on a service that only normally conveys standard class seats - it seems from the above that they can't charge a "first class upgrade" fee, but presumably, if they wanted to, they could just prevent anyone from occupying that first class area of the train / lock the doors to that coach?

There's actually no written rule on it per-se, but that is the convention that has long been applied.
 

Watershed

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Out of interest, if a train has first class seating, but it's being used on a service that only normally conveys standard class seats - it seems from the above that they can't charge a "first class upgrade" fee, but presumably, if they wanted to, they could just prevent anyone from occupying that first class area of the train / lock the doors to that coach?
No different from a portion of the train being locked out of use, as regularly happens on some services (e.g. as a crude form of SDO).
 

LowLevel

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Out of interest, if a train has first class seating, but it's being used on a service that only normally conveys standard class seats - it seems from the above that they can't charge a "first class upgrade" fee, but presumably, if they wanted to, they could just prevent anyone from occupying that first class area of the train / lock the doors to that coach?

Correct, but only the most precious guard would bother. It isn't like it's their own parlour or something.
 

STINT47

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If the train has no first class you can get a refund but what annoyed me a few years ago was when a train had first class but all the seats were taken.

I complained to East Midlands Trains who ssid that due to a train fault the normal train could not run and thr service I caught had fewer carriages than normal. That's fair enough but instead of giving me a refund they advised that as the train conveyed first class accommodation I wasny entitled to compensation even if all seats were taken. So in effect I paid a premium to stand in a doorway and look at others sitting in first class. Pretty annoying.
 

thedbdiboy

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They were wrong. It doesn't matter whether it is full or not provided, if you have paid extra and it's not provided you are entitled to a refund of the difference between First and Standard Class. (This can be a bit challenging to work out in the case of cheap Advance First Class fares that undercut the walk up Standard Class fare).
 

py_megapixel

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If the train has no first class you can get a refund but what annoyed me a few years ago was when a train had first class but all the seats were taken.

I complained to East Midlands Trains who ssid that due to a train fault the normal train could not run and thr service I caught had fewer carriages than normal. That's fair enough but instead of giving me a refund they advised that as the train conveyed first class accommodation I wasny entitled to compensation even if all seats were taken. So in effect I paid a premium to stand in a doorway and look at others sitting in first class. Pretty annoying.
They were wrong. It doesn't matter whether it is full or not provided, if you have paid extra and it's not provided you are entitled to a refund of the difference between First and Standard Class. (This can be a bit challenging to work out in the case of cheap Advance First Class fares that undercut the walk up Standard Class fare).

The precedent seems to be that standing in a first class area does in fact count as travelling first class for ticketing purposes. People have definitely been charged a supplement or PF'ed for it in the past.
 

thedbdiboy

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You are not permitted to stand in a First Class area without a First Class ticket. But you are still entitled to a refund of the difference in fare if you hold a First Class ticket and are unable to get a First Class seat. It's stated in the NRCoT too.
 

py_megapixel

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You are not permitted to stand in a First Class area without a First Class ticket. But you are still entitled to a refund of the difference in fare if you hold a First Class ticket and are unable to get a First Class seat. It's stated in the NRCoT too.
Having checked NRCoT, I stand corrected. I thought the rules referenced first class accommodation (in which case you could have argued that this included standing accommodation) but it does specifically say seats which is fairly unambiguous.
 

STINT47

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Having checked NRCoT, I stand corrected. I thought the rules referenced first class accommodation (in which case you could have argued that this included standing accommodation) but it does specifically say seats which is fairly unambiguous.

That's good to be aware of for the future. Thank you
 

Argyle 1980

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Out of interest, if a train has first class seating, but it's being used on a service that only normally conveys standard class seats - it seems from the above that they can't charge a "first class upgrade" fee, but presumably, if they wanted to, they could just prevent anyone from occupying that first class area of the train / lock the doors to that coach?
There use to be a strange occurrence a few years ago when full length HSTs still operated on the GW. The 20:00 Penzance-Plymouth which was a DMU Monday to Thursday but a HST on a Friday. On the Friday HST diagram, only the two first class coaches would be in use and the rest of the train was locked out of use. Can only think that the reason behind it was staffing.

Also in the final year of HST operation, there was a few occasions a 1st class coach was put in the rake in the middle of the standard coaches. It was declassified obviously.
 

Hadders

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There use to be a strange occurrence a few years ago when full length HSTs still operated on the GW. The 20:00 Penzance-Plymouth which was a DMU Monday to Thursday but a HST on a Friday. On the Friday HST diagram, only the two first class coaches would be in use and the rest of the train was locked out of use. Can only think that the reason behind it was staffing.

Also in the final year of HST operation, there was a few occasions a 1st class coach was put in the rake in the middle of the standard coaches. It was declassified obviously.
Coaches being locked out could have been to do with platforms not being long enough to accommodate the train.
 

Argyle 1980

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Coaches being locked out could have been to do with platforms not being long enough to accommodate the
Just seemed a bit odd that they can't operate the whole train and only unlock doors that are platformed at the short stations like they would during the day. Incidentally the 2210 Arriva CrossCountry Penzance-Plymouth was sometimes a HST vice a Voyager and that operated normally.
 

Hadders

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Just seemed a bit odd that they can't operate the whole train and only unlock doors that are platformed at the short stations like they would during the day. Incidentally the 2210 Arriva CrossCountry Penzance-Plymouth was sometimes a HST vice a Voyager and that operated normally.
On HSTs selected doors is operationally awkward. Probably easier to just lock a couple of coaches from the start out on a lightly used service.
 

Argyle 1980

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On HSTs selected doors is operationally awkward. Probably easier to just lock a couple of coaches from the start out on a lightly used service.
Get what your saying but although it would have been a relatively quiet train by HST standards, it was often absolutely packed to an extent people standing and sitting on floor in the closed buffet area.

All largely history now anyway as Cornwall has a decent mostly half hourly service level with generally 3 coach 158s being the shortest trains. Generally because of the high frequency now, the odd 2 car 150/158 that finds its way onto mainline service isn't generally too bad like it use to be when it was one two car 150 unit every 1 to 2 hours.

Did someone on here allude that standing in first class accommodation is OK and not classed as sitting in it for revenue purposes?
 

robbeech

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Some years ago i boarded a service that was not advertised as having First Class, i held a standard class ticket but sat in the small First class on this basis. The operator had a weekend first policy and given how busy the train was and how lucky i was to get a seat at all i opted to pay for the upgrade and not cause a fuss (at the time), knowing that they would be well within their rights to close the section off entirely forcing me to stand. I think it was £6.
I would think this happens a bit with stock substitutions but i'd also think that most first class ticket holders don't bother (through lack of knowledge or lack of enthusiasm) to obtain a partial refund when first class is not available.
 
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