Do restrictions apply on the use of public transport in Wales? Are leisure journeys allowed or not?

[PHILIPE]

But DfT retains some "rights" over services in England.
Though they probably didn't anticipate Covid.

That's right. TFW can't do anything about passengers travelling within England and admit so

 

[headshot119]

Boris has nothing to do with TFW as they come under the Welsh Government banner and not Westminster

It's an empty statement anyway, BTP have said they won't enforce social distancing, as they can't. The trains down the North Wales Coast have been rammed to the point they've had to put buses on. Why not just go back to the normal timetable and make things a bit more sensible.

 

[Belperpete]

It's an empty statement anyway, BTP have said they won't enforce social distancing, as they can't. The trains down the North Wales Coast have been rammed to the point they've had to put buses on. Why not just go back to the normal timetable and make things a bit more sensible.

According to the Tourism Minister (I think) in Tuesday's briefing, the Welsh Government are enacting additional enforcement powers, and will be expecting the police and transport operators to enforce the requirements on social distancing and wearing of facemasks.

 

[headshot119]

According to the Tourism Minister (I think) in Tuesday's briefing, the Welsh Government are enacting additional enforcement powers, and will be expecting the police and transport operators to enforce the requirements on social distancing and wearing of facemasks.

There is no way railway staff are going to have anything to do with attempting to enforce anything, despite what the deluded Welsh government think. There's been far too many cases around the country (UK as a whole) of guards being assaulted on quiet trains, never mind a 2 car 175 wedged going down the coast. It's just not worth the risk for them, and I don't blame them either.

BTP don't have the capacity to do anything either.

It was a deluded strategy to say that people could travel, then not up the public transport capacity to cope with it.

 

[AdamWW]

There is no way railway staff are going to have anything to do with attempting to enforce anything, despite what the deluded Welsh government think. There's been far too many cases around the country (UK as a whole) of guards being assaulted on quiet trains, never mind a 2 car 175 wedged going down the coast. It's just not worth the risk for them, and I don't blame them either.

BTP don't have the capacity to do anything either.

It was a deluded strategy to say that people could travel, then not up the public transport capacity to cope with it.

They haven't exactly gone out of their way to say that people can travel. Most of the messaging has remained as "No non-essential travel".

 

[Belperpete]

I've said it before, yes, I think compulsory reservation is the way to go with trains at the moment, even local trains. That way you can be sure to limit numbers. To take account that a small number of people might board anyway, keep some seats unreserved.

Ironically, TfW seem to have abolished reservations at present, on the Cambrian at least.

As I posted previously, officially there is only room for a small number of people on each train anyway, reserved or otherwise. I had hoped that they would release more seats on each train once masks became compulsory, but the current overloading of South and North Wales services I suspect means that they are highly unlikely to do anything to encourage even more people on.

 

[AdamWW]

Ironically, TfW seem to have abolished reservations at present, on the Cambrian at least.

As I posted previously, officially there is only room for a small number of people on each train anyway, reserved or otherwise. I had hoped that they would release more seats on each train once masks became compulsory, but the current overloading of South and North Wales services I suspect means that they are highly unlikely to do anything to encourage even more people on.

And as I keep saying, some services might be struggling under the load, but there are a lot of trains running round near empty even by "Covid-safe" standards at the moment.

I would like to know why trains require greater passenger spacing than buses and road coaches. I could see the argument with buses that on the whole journeys are likely to be shorter. But that doesn't apply to National Express.

Maybe it's the same logic that says physical barriers have to be put on benches in stations so that families travelling can't sit down together, but outside the station benches don't even need signs warning people to social distance.

I suppose it's nothing new - just like the way for a long time litter bins weren't allowed in railway stations but were fine just outside.

 

[Belperpete]

So leisure travellers are on trains because they are so stupid they can't understand the message?

That is exactly how I would describe those people who ignore the clear and simple "essential travel only" message and board an already crush-loaded service in complete disregard of any social distancing.

But at the moment there are plenty of trains running around with excess capacity even by the rail social distancing restrictions and no effort apparently being made to get people in those seats - which would also bring in some money and mean that the taxpayer isn't spending a fortune on trains that almost nobody gets to use.

So, to take the Cambrian as an example, we should be telling people that it is OK to travel between Pwllheli and Harlech, and Towyn and Machynlleth, where the train is almost empty, but not between Harlech and Towyn where they are already well loaded by the bucket and spade brigade ignoring the existing message?

 

[AdamWW]

That is exactly how I would describe those people who ignore the clear and simple "essential travel only" message and board an already crush-loaded service in complete disregard of any social distancing.

So, to take the Cambrian as an example, we should be telling people that it is OK to travel between Pwllheli and Harlech, and Towyn and Machynlleth, where the train is almost empty, but not between Harlech and Towyn where they are already well loaded by the bucket and spade brigade ignoring the existing message?

It's not entirely clear to me why you couldn't do that.

Or even have some system where you could obtain permission in advance to use a certain train.

But if all that is too complicated, I still don't think it means that you should have a blanket ban on - for example - using off-peak local trains into Cardiff if they are lightly loaded.

And I think it's asking an awful lot of families without a car to spend the entire summer holidays without a single day out - particularly given that neither TFW or the government seem willing to acknowledge that this is actually what they're asking. It's all just couched in terms of protecting key workers as if everyone has an alternative to public transport.

Moderator note: please continue the reservation discussion at

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ideas-to-enforce-mandatory-reservations-even-for-local-journeys.207493/

 

[Belperpete]

Locals in Cornwall have been complaining also and visitors there are not social distancing and one even said they have they have come there to get away from all the restrictions at home. This is just a casual remark I have picked up but no firm link.

This seems to be the kind of thing happening in Wales too. People come on holiday and want to relax and forget about the problems at home. Unfortunately they seem to forget that for the locals this is home. When you are part of a close-knit community that has been quite happily socially-distancing, to suddenly have a hoard of outsiders descend on you who are totally failing to social distance does not go down well. Particularly when you know that they have come from areas with far higher infection rates than yours. The boorish behavior of many of those tourists doesn't help either. During the lockdown, my local beach was beautifully clean, yesterday it was strewn with plastic and the remains of umpteen barbecues.

How would you have felt if thousands of tourists from Wuhan had suddenly descended on your home town at the height of the pandemic, failing to social distance with you, and throwing litter all over the place? That's what it feels like to those small Welsh towns like Barmouth who suddenly find themselves swamped by tourists from the English virus hot-spots.

There has always been a fine balance between those who benefit from tourism and those who suffer the effects of it. It doesn't help that the majority of those who directly benefit from tourism are themselves "incomers" - many of the hotel owners, for example, are English.

 

[yorkie]

The stance taken by TfW and the Welsh Government is nothing short of disgraceful.

It's not always possible to practise social distancing; the WHO state:

there are some settings in which it may not be possible to keep physical distancing....

For this reason, WHO advises that governments should encourage the use of non-medical fabric masks, which can act as a barrier to prevent the spread of the virus from the wearer to others where there are many cases of COVID-19, for people in the general public where physical distancing of at least 1 metre is not possible – such as, on public transport, in shops or in other confined or crowded environments.

Countries such as France allow every seat to be occupied.

The Welsh position is ludicrous, unsustainable, and nonsensical.

It's also unenforceable; well there is nothing really to 'enforce' as you cannot deny people the right to legitimate travel.

I see BTP have been misleading people; I'm quite happy to have an argument with them on that.

 

[AdamWW]

The stance taken by TfW and the Welsh Government is nothing short of disgraceful.

It's not always possible to practise social distancing; the WHO state:


Countries such as France allow every seat to be occupied.

The Welsh position is ludicrous, unsustainable, and nonsensical.

It's also unenforceable; well there is nothing really to 'enforce' as you cannot deny people the right to legitimate travel.

I see BTP have been misleading people; I'm quite happy to have an argument with them on that.

It will be enforcable if the money runs out - how long can the taxpayer be asked to pay for trains that barely anyone is supposed to use?

And if we still have a transport system if and when this is all over, I expect they'll go back to trying to encourage people to ditch their cars....

 

[Dai Corner]

Yesterday's press release from TfW Rail Services and BTP

Transport For Wales News - Home

News from Transport For Wales

news.tfwrail.wales

Transport for Wales and British Transport Police reinforce travel advice

Ahead of the good weather this weekend, Transport for Wales and British Transport Police are reinforcing their Travel Safer message, urging people to only use public transport for essential travel and where there are no other travel alternatives.

With limited capacity due to social distancing measures, TfW is sending out a clear message that public transport remains to maintain safe space for key workers.
TfW has seen a significant rise in people using the service for recreational activities especially at coastal destinations during good weather and in partnership with BTP would like the public to adhere to the rules.
Leyton Powell, Transport for Wales Rail Services Safety and Assurance Director said:
“The safety of customers and colleagues is our top priority and we’re asking everyone to only use public transport for essential travel and where there are no other travel alternatives.
“Our capacity has been massively reduced due to social distancing measures and we must maintain safe space for those key workers using our services.”


Andy Morgan, BTP Superintendent added:
“Our officers continue to support rail staff this weekend in engaging with passengers, explaining the importance of preventing the spread of the virus and encouraging people to wear face coverings.
“We are confident that those who need to use the railway will act responsibly and will want to play their part in helping to protect each other and comply with the requirements.”

Leyton Powell was on ITV Wales News this evening making this statement from Barry Island. (I wonder if he go the train there?).

 

[yorkie]

Leyton Powell was on ITV Wales News this evening making this statement from Barry Island. (I wonder if he go the train there?).

People like that tend to prefer more polluting methods of transport, so probably not.

 

[Belperpete]

Countries such as France allow every seat to be occupied.

You might have chosen a better comparison. I seem to recall reading that we are considering re-imposing quarantine on people coming from France due to their rising infection rates.

 

[yorkie]

You might have chosen a better comparison. I seem to recall reading that we are considering re-imposing quarantine on people coming from France due to their rising infection rates.

If you think the approach in Wales is sensible, which other countries/regions require passengers to be two metres apart on public transport?

Do you have any evidence infection rates are increasing in France due to public transport? If so, please do present it (but it would be best posted in a new thread; feel free to link to it here though!)

 

[Belperpete]

If you think the approach in Wales is sensible, which other countries/regions require passengers to be two metres apart on public transport?

Do you have any evidence infection rates are increasing in France due to public transport? If so, please do present it (but it would be best posted in a new thread)

I have no idea why infection rates are increasing in France. I doubt that there is any one reason. But if they are no longer doing any form of social distancing when in an enclosed space for a long period of time, it would seem to be one possibility.

 

[yorkie]

OK, so given there is no evidence offered to suggest that any other country requires public transport users to be 2m apart, why should it be done in Wales?

Low long do you propose this unsustainable measure lasts for?

How do you propose it is enforced?

 

[Belperpete]

OK, so given there is no evidence offered to suggest that any other country requires public transport users to be 2m apart, why should it be done in Wales?
Low long do you propose this unsustainable measure lasts for?
How do you propose it is enforced?

While the government are prepared to financially support the current arrangement, I see no reason why they shouldn't specify who is allowed to use it. I certainly don't expect them to pay extra money to run extra services, or run additional supporting bus services, just to support non-essential leisure travel. They have already stated that they are bringing in extra enforcement powers, and expect the BTP and transport operators to enforce it.

I would hope that they maintain these measures until the level of virus in the community has been reduced to a level where transmission is negligible. That is clearly not the case now, as evidenced by the rising infection levels in the UK.

 

[yorkie]

While the government are prepared to financially support the current arrangement, I see no reason why they shouldn't specify who is allowed to use it.

I hope you are not suggesting that people who do not have access to cars could see their freedom of movement restricted?

They have already stated that they are bringing in extra enforcement powers, and expect the BTP and transport operators to enforce it.

What exactly do you propose be "enforced" and how do you think it could actually be enforced?

I would hope that they maintain these measures until the level of virus in the community has been reduced to a level where transmission is negligible. That is clearly not the case now, as evidenced by the rising infection levels in the UK.

Given that you can offer no evidence any other country adopts this policy, it does not seem proportionate or viable to me.

 

[Bikeman78]

According to the Tourism Minister (I think) in Tuesday's briefing, the Welsh Government are enacting additional enforcement powers, and will be expecting the police and transport operators to enforce the requirements on social distancing and wearing of facemasks.

What planet are they on? What about cross border trains? Are BTP going to evict people at the station before the border?

 

[AdamWW]

While the government are prepared to financially support the current arrangement, I see no reason why they shouldn't specify who is allowed to use it. I certainly don't expect them to pay extra money to run extra services, or run additional supporting bus services, just to support non-essential leisure travel. They have already stated that they are bringing in extra enforcement powers, and expect the BTP and transport operators to enforce it.

I would hope that they maintain these measures until the level of virus in the community has been reduced to a level where transmission is negligible. That is clearly not the case now, as evidenced by the rising infection levels in the UK.

So you geuninely think that it's reasonable that everyone without access to a car in Wales should remain at home except for essential travel for the indefinite future....even while many trains are running round with capacity even by the extreme Welsh rail social distancing requirements?

Would you be prepared to say if this affects you personally?

 

[Belperpete]

I hope you are not suggesting that people who do not have access to cars could see their freedom of movement restricted?

This virus has seen all sorts of freedoms restricted, and will continue to do so for some time to come. Yes, it is unfair that people (like me) who don't have a car are more restricted than others. Just as it is unfair that people (like me) who are more susceptible to the virus have had to isolate more than others. That some are more likely to die from the virus. And so on. Life is unfair, and will continue to be unfair, you need accept it and stop getting so worked up about it.

 

[Belperpete]

So you geuninely think that it's reasonable that everyone without access to a car in Wales should remain at home except for essential travel for the indefinite future....even while many trains are running round with capacity even by the extreme Welsh rail social distancing requirements?

Would you be prepared to say if this affects you personally?

It does affect me personally, so patently I am prepared to say so.

 

[Dai Corner]

So you geuninely think that it's reasonable that everyone without access to a car in Wales should remain at home except for essential travel for the indefinite future....even while many trains are running round with capacity even by the extreme Welsh rail social distancing requirements?

Would you be prepared to say if this affects you personally?

Those without access to a car can use the buses, on which the general rule seems to be one passenger per double seat since a meeting between operators and the Government. I have no idea why trains have stricter restrictions.

 

[Belperpete]

Those without access to a car can use the buses, on which the general rule seems to be one passenger per double seat since a meeting between operators and the Government. I have no idea why trains have stricter restrictions.

I was expecting them to relax the restrictions when face masks were made mandatory. But the current overcrowding on both South and North Wales services means that I doubt they will do anything that could potentially encourage even further overcrowding.

 

[yorkie]

This virus has seen all sorts of freedoms restricted, and will continue to do so for some time to come. Yes, it is unfair that people (like me) who don't have a car are more restricted than others. Just as it is unfair that people (like me) who are more susceptible to the virus have had to isolate more than others. That some are more likely to die from the virus. And so on. Life is unfair, and will continue to be unfair, you need accept it and stop getting so worked up about it.

People who do not have cars are not subject to more restrictions on freedom of movement than those who do; that would clearly be discriminatory and illegal.

The fact you are suggesting this could be the case or that it may be a good idea is disappointing, but it clearly isn't going to actually happen.

 

[Richard Scott]

While the government are prepared to financially support the current arrangement, I see no reason why they shouldn't specify who is allowed to use it. I certainly don't expect them to pay extra money to run extra services, or run additional supporting bus services, just to support non-essential leisure travel. They have already stated that they are bringing in extra enforcement powers, and expect the BTP and transport operators to enforce it.

Useful to remember who the Government are. They are elected by us to spend our money as they see fit, they don't have a money tree in the garden. Would be interested to know where the money is coming from to run these empty trains if it isn't being paid for by us.

 

[Bletchleyite]

OK, so given there is no evidence offered to suggest that any other country requires public transport users to be 2m apart, why should it be done in Wales?

Maybe Wales has got it right and others have got it wrong?

Personally, I believe the minority of countries (New Zealand, Isle of Man, Channel Islands) have got other aspects right and almost every other country in the world wrong. Not everyone agrees with this, but many here do think Sweden got it right and others got it wrong. The majority is not always right.

Low long do you propose this unsustainable measure lasts for?

As long as is necessary, presumably.

How do you propose it is enforced?

Compulsory reservations (though there's a thread on that to discuss it further, cheers to whichever mod moved it out).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

They are just opportunists using the pretence of public health to express their anti-tourism views. They should be given the attention they deserve - none.

Well they got star billing on BBC Welsh news.
Regardless of party, there is definitely a lot of resentment over excessive tourism in Wales.
The caravan, camping, cycling and biking brigades have come in droves in the past couple of weeks, seemingly more than a typical summer.