Do Sleepers make money?

[Essexman]

I'm a middle aged bloke & I use sleepers for business travel. As do some others but sadly not that many to Glasgow & Edinburgh. I won't fly short distances on environmental grounds & find that a late evening departure that gets me to Scotland in time for a 9.00 meeting is almost as if the journey has taken no time - I'd normally be asleep anyway.

I used to use the Plymouth portion quite often, then double back to Torquay, but now that has stopped arrival is too early in Plymouth - they used to let you sleep in the train until 8.00 until the shunter took it out the station.

I also use them in Europe but as daytime trains speed up there are now less. Used to use Zurich to Brussels sometimes but that stopped a few years ago.

Most of the shorter distance UK sleepers went when our trains got faster too.

I would use sleepers to Europe if they ran but sadly I can't see it happening.

 

[Greenback]

I can't see sleepers to Europe for the foreseeable future either. However, I agree with those who have said that air travel is likely to decline, and that it's godo to have choices. I am pleased that there is a sleeper bus operating to and from Scotland - I believe that this service is complementary to the rail service rather than a threat, as I believe rail complements air on some flows, rather than being direct competition.

Faster daytime journeys are certainly one reason for the contraction in overnight services. I think cheap flights have had less of an effect tbh. I think they encouraged more people to travel more often, and to different places than previously, rather than taking people away from classic sleeper services, at least in terms of UK to Europe travel.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'd pay more for the convenience of a decent sleeper service, with Wi-Fi and perhaps a desk to let me do some work. In a few weeks, we're going to Sweden for Christmas and my wife is 7 months pregnant - so rather than fly (just 3 hours) we're going by boat to Denmark and then train to Stockholm, with a stop over in Malmo. So it will take nearly 3 days in total. It's not comparable to a low-cost flight, but it suits us (and my wife) and we'll both be able to relax throughout.

As a father of three children I can understand your reasoning but I don't think you'd fancy making the same journey once your child is born! Not only that but a lot of people don't have sufficient annual leave to under take such a journey.

My other point is that if I'm overseas with work I want to get there and back as soon as possible. I would rather catch a very early flight to ensure that I have a night at home with my family. Each to their own of course but I much prefer the comfort of my own bed.

 

[shinkansen1966]

However, I agree with those who have said that air travel is likely to decline..

Agreed. A lot of airline travel is discretionary: foreign holidays which can be shelved if you're worried about your job, no more weekend jaunts to Europe, or business trips replaced with video calls. Among the things which you spend money on, airline travel is one of the easier ones to cut.

For example yesterday, (29 Nov 2011), American Airlines filed for chapter 11 protection from bankruptcy. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15935206

 

[dk1]

Imagine what could happen with overnight train travel if we had a permanent ash cloud problem. Yeah i know thats not good really but i travelled to Marseille from London during the last period of chaos & it was fantastic to hear the tales of epic European journeys that where being under-taken & probably as a one off, with much excitement & with a sense of adventure. It also opened many eyes to just how good the rail networks have become.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Imagine what could happen with overnight train travel if we had a permanent ash cloud problem. Yeah i know thats not good really but i travelled to Marseille from London during the last period of chaos & it was fantastic to hear the tales of epic European journeys that where being under-taken & probably as a one off, with much excitement & with a sense of adventure. It also opened many eyes to just how good the rail networks have become.

I had many great inter-rail adventures when I was in my late teens / early
20's but back then I was a skint student! Now that I can afford to fly my family to the south of France for two weeks there is no way that I'd take the train. With limited annual leave time is everything and the weather in this country is rubbish so flying is the only option.

 

[dk1]

I had many great inter-rail adventures when I was in my late teens / early
20's but back then I was a skint student! Now that I can afford to fly my family to the south of France for two weeks there is no way that I'd take the train. With limited annual leave time is everything and the weather in this country is rubbish so flying is the only option.

I used to do it in the 90s but honestly things have changed so much. Often no need to fly, but then that does depend if where you are going is close to the TGV network.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I used to do it in the 90s but honestly things have changed so much. Often no need to fly, but then that does depend if where you are going is close to the TGV network.

True, but flying from the SE to Nice is much quicker than taking train, even taking into account check in times. I know there is a decent TGV service from Paris to Nice but you've got to get to Paris first!

 

[Invincibles]

In China they provide beds on day time services, and these are often popular on the longer journeys.

So thinking about the different sleeper services, would an order of stock make more sense if there were trains between Aberdeen/Inverness and the South West during the day.

If some rooms are specified with in room entertainment, wifi, power points etc they could become like mobile offices without the distractions of the general noise of passenger carriages.

For example after a morning meeting in Edinburgh you could jump on the train and head back to HQ in Cardiff in a comfortable environment and still work as necessary

Expecting that the units are made up with sufficient seating accommodation then there could be an extra market using the stock during the day.

 

[4SRKT]

I had many great inter-rail adventures when I was in my late teens / early
20's but back then I was a skint student! Now that I can afford to fly my family to the south of France for two weeks there is no way that I'd take the train. With limited annual leave time is everything and the weather in this country is rubbish so flying is the only option.

The only option that appeals to you perhaps, but it would be perfectly possible to make the journey part of the holiday experience, as my parents did in my youth. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a market for this type of thing.

 

[stut]

I'm a middle aged bloke & I use sleepers for business travel. As do some others but sadly not that many to Glasgow & Edinburgh. I won't fly short distances on environmental grounds & find that a late evening departure that gets me to Scotland in time for a 9.00 meeting is almost as if the journey has taken no time - I'd normally be asleep anyway.

That's exactly it for me - yes, I could spend 4-5 hours on a train and it'd be quicker than flying, the check in to the nearest carbon-copy Premier Inn or HIX, but I've still lost half a day (and generally not half a working day, oh no, the half the day I'd normally spend with my wife). But with the sleeper, I can leave the house just as MrsStut heads off to bed, and be in Glasgow as everyone's going to work, pop down into the basement for a shower, into the great wee Caffe Nero in the old St Enoch subway for a strong double espresso, and I'm off.

I'd gladly do this for any sensible distance (and have done in many parts of Europe). Don't mind sharing, either.

But I do accept that it's not everyone's tasse de thé.

 

[Oswyntail]

I would question the received wisdom that sleepers are only viable on the longest journeys. Business travel from Leeds or Manchester distances to London really cuts a couple of hours off the productive working day, as you arrive in your London base at around 10. Have a sleeper that you board in Leeds the evening before and drops you off in London at 7 - no one cares where it spends the night

 

[jon0844]

For example after a morning meeting in Edinburgh you could jump on the train and head back to HQ in Cardiff in a comfortable environment and still work as necessary

Expecting that the units are made up with sufficient seating accommodation then there could be an extra market using the stock during the day.

I think you could be right. Just look in any Starbucks (or McDonald's where I am right now using my MacBook on their Wi-Fi) and you can see people paying to have a coffee and 'hot desk' for an hour or three. I've been in a Starbucks for four hours working before - they're great, cheap, offices (£2.15 for a coffee every hour!)

When trains were seen as dirty things merely to get you from A to B, if you were lucky, it may not have been appealing but now I'd actually be quite happy to spend time on a train if I had a nice seat, food/drink, Wi-Fi and power.

Of course it wouldn't suit everyone, but it's about choices. As long as there are enough people who would use it, it doesn't matter if other people still prefer to do things differently. We need multiple choices because one day I may want to relax and kill time, the next I am in a major rush.
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The only option that appeals to you perhaps, but it would be perfectly possible to make the journey part of the holiday experience, as my parents did in my youth. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a market for this type of thing.

When I was young, we took 2-3 week holidays by boat or car and the trip was part of the holiday. It didn't waste time one bit - it was possibly the best bit of going to/from wherever in Europe we went!

 

[RichmondCommu]

I would question the received wisdom that sleepers are only viable on the longest journeys. Business travel from Leeds or Manchester distances to London really cuts a couple of hours off the productive working day, as you arrive in your London base at around 10. Have a sleeper that you board in Leeds the evening before and drops you off in London at 7 - no one cares where it spends the night

But would you not rather spend the night in your own bed rather than being thrown around in a sleeping car?

 

[Yew]

But would you not rather spend the night in your own bed rather than being thrown around in a sleeping car?

I suppose in some ways it depends. for example To get to Lincoln for a 9am start on monday. I have to get up at 5:30. Now obviously If I could get a sleeper after work on sunday, and arrive in lincoln in the morning, I would gladly do that. However I wouldnt want to do it every day.

I would say that Newcastle could possibly have a sleeper, Possibly going Newcastle, york, leeds, sheffield, nottingham. or something smilar

 

[tbtc]

The only option that appeals to you perhaps, but it would be perfectly possible to make the journey part of the holiday experience, as my parents did in my youth. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a market for this type of thing.

There'll be some market, but more at the "rail tour" end of the market. In a way, maybe the future of sleepers in the UK would be better aiming at that leisurely market...

 

[DarloRich]

Yes, but you can't sleep or have an enjoyable ride on a plane. (taking the sleeper's argument)

no but you can be home and sleeping in your own bed in next to no time ( compared with the sleeper)

Now if the questions is which is the nicer way to travel...........................

 

[jon0844]

I think they'll cater for both. Think Eurostar with business class and leisure select on the same trains, along with standard class.

 

[Essexman]

Newcastle used to have a sleeper (when there were separate East & West Coast trains). When they stopped it they suggested people could get sleeper to Edinburgh and double back. I've done that once and it worked out cheaper than a peak ticket to Newcastle for a morning meeting, with the bonus of breakfast by the North Sea.

 

[Daniel]

Can't see if this has been pointed out yet?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-15933988

Scottish sleeper service safeguard plan announced

 

[ainsworth74]

But that plan only comes into effect if Holyrood agrees to co-fund the replacement programme otherwise we remain at square one.

 

[shinkansen1966]

But that plan only comes into effect if Holyrood agrees to co-fund the replacement programme otherwise we remain at square one.

It's political posturing, of which we will see more as Scotland gears up for an independence referendum campaign.

By offering £50 million to fund Anglo-Scottish sleeper, on condition that Holyrood matches, Osborne is leaving it in Scotland's court, if Holyrood turns down their side of this financial bargain.

 

[jon0844]

I would say that in this case, it should be co-funded.

 

[Yew]

Heres a thought, Via rail have 29 innactive MK4 sleepers, maybe some could be repatriated, as they have a toilet in every room, and showers in half?

 

[jopsuk]

They're not "mark 4"s. The design has little as far as I know to do with Mark 4s. They're also really, really heavy and really, really power hungry. Not sure how long the proposed formations were, but for travel beyond wires, the head of the train was going to be two 37s sandwiching a generator van.

 

[HSTEd]

Two Cl37s only really matches one Cl67 now, and you could fit a generating van DVT for push pull operation.

 

[Yew]

The trains were to use equipment based on the British Rail Mark 4 coaches modified for long distance service,[1] configured as a fifteen coach train as follows:

Seated coach: 4 per train
Lounge/Service: 1 per train
Sleeping car: 10 per train

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightstar_(train)

 

[WestCoast]

Agreed. A lot of airline travel is discretionary: foreign holidays which can be shelved if you're worried about your job, no more weekend jaunts to Europe, or business trips replaced with video calls. Among the things which you spend money on, airline travel is one of the easier ones to cut.

From a European perspective, perhaps so. If you take domestic travel in the USA, however, the story is vastly different. On most domestic journeys the option is car or plane, with the former of those often being too slow. The plane is effectively public transport in that country.
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Yes, but you can't sleep or have an enjoyable ride on a plane. (taking the sleeper's argument)

You can if you're an aviation fan like myself. Obviously the opinions of members of this forum are not representative of the wider population, and therefore are quite obviously biased towards the idea of sleepers. I can think of many people who wouldn't want to spend a long time on a train. Even in mainland Europe, where sleepers are commonplace, the market for air travel is still very large.

 

[shinkansen1966]

You can if you're an aviation fan like myself.

Enjoy it while it lasts. I don't see aviation in its current form lasting during my lifetime. I'm 45.

 

[WestCoast]

Enjoy it while it lasts. I don't see aviation in its current form lasting during my lifetime. I'm 45.

Maybe not, but a lot of things that weren't supposed to last, have done. Pacers anyone? I am confident that it will evolve in some way or another. The US don't take that view either, since they're in no rush to build high-speed rail.

The rising cost and diminishing of oil is the major problem, and that will affect so much more than aviation. I could quite as easily say motoring will not continue in its current form.

Many oil-dependent industries are looking for solutions, with motoring and aviation being prime examples.