Do Sleepers make money?

[AlterEgo]

What we ened to make money, is japanese style pod's

I have thought this would be a good idea for ages. You could probably increase capacity by about 40% in Standard Class - but I wonder if it is practical.

 

[jon0844]

I am not sure about the pods from Japan, but do think you could look at the first class seating on long-haul flights to get inspiration for how you might get a LOT more beds in standard class - which could then make running the services profitable, or at least to break even.

First class would probably still see individual cabins, as on a train I think people would expect more than a plane where there are serious limitations on space. In fact, the individual cabin (supported by power sockets, Wi-Fi and perhaps satellite TV) would give a real edge over flying, quite possibly involving a hotel stay before or after the flight (and having to get up at silly o'clock if not staying in a hotel).

I do think we need to be thinking about trains (and even boats that can also offer a pleasant environment to sleep on) given the fact that flying will one day get a LOT more expensive.. and if we need to ration fuel in any way, we'll be needing it for the long haul destinations.

I wonder if the rail industry has even considered this, or will just try and keep running ancient trains until they totally fall apart and the cost of new stock will mark the death of the service(s) completely.

 

[AlterEgo]

I wonder if the rail industry has even considered this, or will just try and keep running ancient trains until they totally fall apart and the cost of new stock will mark the death of the service(s) completely.

Yes - I'm not sure of any market research I can recall about the sleeper market.

It would be an absolute travesty if the sleeper service was lost - not only is it a useful train, it's a lifeline to Highland communities.

 

[tbtc]

Yes - I'm not sure of any market research I can recall about the sleeper market.

It would be an absolute travesty if the sleeper service was lost - not only is it a useful train, it's a lifeline to Highland communities.

Is it really?

Nice to have, yes, but a "lifeline"?

 

[Aictos]

Or you could even call it "Nightstar"...

The Nightstar project that was intended to run through the tunnel in the nineties is the perfect case study of how prohibitively complicated and expensive a continental sleeper from Britain would be. The rolling stock has to be built to an even higher standard than domestic stock to be compliant with multiple different safety regimes of the countries that it'll pass through.

Additionally, you need to be able to source existing, or build new, types of locomotive from each country the train will operate in that have sufficient train supply to provide "hotel power" to the sleeper. As I understand it, this was one of the major stumbling blocks for Nightstar, as I think Belgium were lacking on suitable locomotives with enough "juice" to provide power to the Nightstar stock. All the British locos intended to haul the Nightstar stock were either built new (the EPS 92s) or purpose built conversions (The 37/6s and generator vehicles), which will have pushed up the cost of the project considerably given that the 92s are incredibly flashy bits of kit.

Of course, the other alternative is to carry a generator on board the coaching stock to provide power to the sleeper, removing the need for locos with a high train supply rating to haul the train. However, this is likely to add both weight and additional length to what will already probably be a fairly lengthy and weighty train.

However, this probably isn't such a major concern any more, as continental Europe have increasingly adopted a standard design template for locomotive types (Bombardier TRAXX, Siemens Taurus, etc) which improves interchangeability and aids standardisation. And there's nothing to say that these sleeper trains couldn't be EMUs as has been discussed recently on the Caledonian Sleeper thread, with all the traction power on board.

Are the Bombardier TRAXX and Siemens Taurus locos cleared into St Pancras International though?

Secondly, would the existing City Night Line sleepers be cleared into the International Platforms there?

Would be so nice to be able to use the sleepers rather then having to be restricted to day Eurostars or Flights.

 

[amcluesent]

Just my observations, having worked in London for 10 years or so and used air, sleeper and EC\Virgin to get back to Scotland. I'm assuming FC travel on the trains. I'm thinking about Average Joe business types, I don't know MPs and Lairds.

The Sleeper works well for people on contract in London and who have a flat. They like coming down overnight on Sunday, but aim for a 16:30 to 17:30 ECML\WCML on Friday to be home that night.

For anyone north of Edinburgh, it's more favoured to fly. Aberdeen to London City is OK, as transit time through City is good compared to LHR etc.

For a team coming down for a day, they virtually never use the sleeper. You can get the 1st service out of Glasgow\Edinburgh and be getting a good beakfast and full use of wi-fi for working up presentations. TBH, you're not any more tired as I find the 'sleeper' is more of a 'snoozer' due to the bumps and clangs through the night.

Also, it's far cheaper to have a team going back on ECML\WCML. If they use the Sleeper, they'll go to a posh restaurant and run up a bar-bill while waiting for the 22:30 departure. On ECML\WCML the food is included in the ticket price.

The sleeper is useful if you live at one of the request-stop stations, I've done Euston to Helensburgh as it eliminates the change at the ghastly Central Station low-level at the dead of night. However, I've only used it for 'distress' travel when a family member has been ill.

TBH there's some basic omissions from the Sleeper, i.e. no 3-pin sockets, no wi-fi and dodgy beakfast. Yes, it's quite fun as a 'one off' to go up to Fort William etc. but that's not a sustainable business.

 

[cambsy]

The New MegabusSleeper Coach could take passengers off sleeper trains,because for one it runs on Sat nite,u get a free coffee etc,little bottles of pop,croissant and juice in morning,maximum fare is 40,and from what heard from drivers new Vanhool Doubledeckers are planned if proves popular enough,they will be factory fitted beds,think 38 or so berths,have been on the sleeper coach and it is good and good value,and runs on sat nite,and it makes money and is regulary fully booked

 

[Yew]

About future sleeper stock, Is it just me who thinks that it will be based on the DMU/EMU at the timem with the best ride, but with the engines taken out, so it becomes LHCS?

 

[jon0844]

Pacer conversions anyone?!

 

[amcluesent]

and is regulary fully booked

No doubt, however asking about NUS cardholders on the booking form just rings some alarm bells for those of us on the wrong side of 30...

 

[ainsworth74]

Are the Bombardier TRAXX and Siemens Taurus locos cleared into St Pancras International though?

Secondly, would the existing City Night Line sleepers be cleared into the International Platforms there?

Surely the issue is less if their cleared into St Pancras (which I doubt as why would anyone have done that work?) and more if they meet the safety regulations to get through the tunnel in the first place.

 

[Yew]

I cant see why TRAXX wouldnt be cleared, they fit in our loading guage, and berne gauge is more generous

 

[ainsworth74]

I cant see why TRAXX wouldnt be cleared, they fit in our loading guage, and berne gauge is more generous

It probably will fit (as you say there is a version that fits our loading gauge) but you still have to actually check

 

[jon0844]

Presumably enough bits will fall off so it will fit easily after a few days?

 

[WestCoast]

I am not sure about the pods from Japan, but do think you could look at the first class seating on long-haul flights to get inspiration for how you might get a LOT more beds in standard class - which could then make running the services profitable, or at least to break even.

Indeed, many long-haul airlines offer seats which convert to flat beds in Business Class. This concept could be quite easily transferred to a Standard Class sleeper section.

I do think we need to be thinking about trains (and even boats that can also offer a pleasant environment to sleep on) given the fact that flying will one day get a LOT more expensive.. and if we need to ration fuel in any way, we'll be needing it for the long haul destinations

Yes, but the world relies on oil for so much more than flying. The day when these things become too expensive, will hopefully be in a time when there are effective alternatives for our society - so it's perhaps not a fact as very little is certain in the future. Don't forget that so much worldwide cargo also relies on air travel, it's not all about people.

In any case, the Scotrail sleeper does have an outdated product in my opinion, especially compared to the likes of CityNightLine or even the FGW sleeper. Yes, it's nostalgic, but offering nostalgia isn't always profitable.

 

[Bald Rick]

Personally, I think there may well be a market for a London to Barcelona sleeper. Yes everybody mentions the cheap airlines, but it is mentioned that the cheap fares are now less available than at the peak of the cheap airlines craze in the late 1990s and early 2000s. And given all the increased security, restrictions on luggage, etc. I wonder if a London to Barcelona sleeper would be an attractive option for families on holiday (after all, you get ferries direct to Spain). As you would struggle to get cheap airline tickets for popular holiday destinations during the school summer holidays, so families may want to try something 'different'. There is also the fact that you don't 'waste a day' travelling by doing it at night.

And who on here doesn't like the idea of going on a sleeper from London to Barcelona, or at least think 'That's something I must do someday'?

Given that the Paris - Barcelona sleeper takes over 12 hours, London - Barca would be more like a waker-sleeper-waker 17 hour marathon. And it would be about £200 one way. Compare to Easyjet!

 

[jon0844]

As fuel prices increase, I am sure people will travel less and we can make cars more efficient - but we still have a way to go to finding ways to make planes use a lot less fuel (and I mean a LOT).

I also think that this could help our economy as higher prices to import goods may make it viable to produce stuff here again. In fact, given wage rises in places like China, that may happen long before fuel prices increase.

You are certainly right that we can't predict the future as we may stumble or develop some alternative to oil that solves all the problems we think we're going to have.

Or we may not. I think we have to assume that until we have, we won't.

 

[WestCoast]

As fuel prices increase, I am sure people will travel less and we can make cars more efficient - but we still have a way to go to finding ways to make planes use a lot less fuel (and I mean a LOT).

We do, but I remain hopeful that something can be done before an oil crisis. I am by no means knowledgeable in this area, but I have heard vastly different predictions about if and when this crisis will occur.

It's important to remember that commercial jet aircraft have only been in existence for about 60 years, they are much younger than trains. I dare say that some members of this very forum are older than that! Who knows what will happen in the next 40 years?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Personally, I think there may well be a market for a London to Barcelona sleeper. Yes everybody mentions the cheap airlines, but it is mentioned that the cheap fares are now less available than at the peak of the cheap airlines craze in the late 1990s and early 2000s. And given all the increased security, restrictions on luggage, etc. I wonder if a London to Barcelona sleeper would be an attractive option for families on holiday (after all, you get ferries direct to Spain). As you would struggle to get cheap airline tickets for popular holiday destinations during the school summer holidays, so families may want to try something 'different'. There is also the fact that you don't 'waste a day' travelling by doing it at night.

And who on here doesn't like the idea of going on a sleeper from London to Barcelona, or at least think 'That's something I must do someday'?

Joe, from your post I can only assume that you don't have a family of your own. No matter how well behaved your kids are, London to Barcelona on the train with kids would be a living hell. Its just too far mate. I did that journey a couple of times in my late teens / early 20's but what you are suggesting is entirely different. If families want to try "something different" they'll switch to a different Greek island for two weeks. And the space you get on a ferry is far greater than you get on a train.

Nice idea Joe but I'm afraid you would get very few takers. Kids don't have the patience that adults have.

 

[12CSVT]

How was the Plymouth sleeping car detached from the train, and where was it put? In BR days it (actually 'they' then) was shunted by the station pilot, but I don't suppose there was an 08 at Plymouth station by 2005. It's a rum do getting kicked off the sleeper at Plymouth at 05:30 BTW.

The Plymouth sleeping car was taken off and shunted by an 08 until about 5 years ago. It definitely operated in September 2005 because I had 08644 for haulage when on my way to the Bodmin & Wenford for a diesel gala.

As for the Scottish sleeper the Fort William sleeper was temporarily dropped at around the time of privatisation, replaced by a bizarre parliamentary service (Ashfield to Bishopbriggs if I remember correctly) until Scotrail were forced to reinstate it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Don't forget that the oil price has quadrupled in the past decade, and air traffic in UK airspace has still grown in that time, albeit at a much slower pace than previously. Even if the oil price doubled again, would it change the way we move around the world that much?

 

[WestCoast]

Don't forget that the oil price has quadrupled in the past decade, and air traffic in UK airspace has still grown in that time, albeit at a much slower pace than previously. Even if the oil price doubled again, would it change the way we move around the world that much?

Well, taking a European view (because there are realistic alternatives here), the EU "policy" (very loose term) on this is to build high-speed rail lines to reduce the short-distance demand for air travel. However, I believe they still are predicting growth, and key EU countries are expanding their airports - with new runways and terminals appearing (e.g. Frankfurt). This goes against Britain's current policy on airport infrastructure.

That's not to say that sleepers cannot play a role in taking a proportion of the demand away from air travel. I think there is a huge potential for further expansion of sleepers across Europe. However, I wouldn't take it for granted that there will be a huge 'plane to train' modal shift when oil prices rise.

 

[jon0844]

It cost a lot more for my recent flight to Las Vegas, but I still paid it.

It's now more costly to fly with Ryanair, even if they try and keep the headline figures down for comparison purposes (the price people seem to quote to friends and family) and then add on loads of fees afterwards, but people still fly with them. Some, but probably just a few, jump through all the hoops to save those extra fees but they'll get caught out in the end.

I do think air travel will get to the point where people may just travel less, rather than pay. They might not simply change to a train, boat or driving, but may just not travel at all - or at least less frequently.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Don't forget that the oil price has quadrupled in the past decade, and air traffic in UK airspace has still grown in that time, albeit at a much slower pace than previously. Even if the oil price doubled again, would it change the way we move around the world that much?

Exactly, of course it won't. Given the choice between returning home from Frankfurt on an overnight train or flying home I would always prefer to fly. Nothing beats spending a night with your family in your own home. Great for inter railers but not for middle aged blokes!

 

[WestCoast]

It's now more costly to fly with Ryanair, even if they try and keep the headline figures down for comparison purposes

Ah, but before the low-cost boom it was even more expensive to fly on city routes, since these be would monopolies and duopolies. For example, in about 1989 the promotional fare on KLM for Manchester to Amsterdam was about £85 return advance non-flexible. Nowadays, it's £79 return headline fare on the very same airline. That's the final price too. Considering the difference in the value of cash, I think that's very revealing. It's quite easy to forget these figures really - and just remember those from when Ryanair and easyJet first appeared. You can often secure an easyJet ticket for £45 return.
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It cost a lot more for my recent flight to Las Vegas, but I still paid it..

Look at how much APD tax you pay departing from the UK. If you're willing to fly via Amsterdam, where the Dutch scrapped their tax, the price can decrease dramatically. They levy lower taxes on long-haul flights.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Ah, but before the low-cost boom it was even more expensive to fly on city routes, since these be would monopolies and duopolies. For example, in about 1989 the promotional fare on KLM for Manchester to Amsterdam was about £85 return advance non-flexible. Nowadays, it's £79 return headline fare on the very same airline. That's the final price too. Considering the difference in the value of cash, I think that's very revealing. It's quite easy to forget these figures really - and just remember those from when Ryanair and easyJet first appeared. You can often secure an easyJet ticket for £45 return.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Look at how much APD tax you pay departing from the UK. If you're willing to fly via Amsterdam, where the Dutch scrapped their tax, the price can decrease dramatically. They levy lower taxes on long-haul flights.

You've made some very good points there which certainly blow a few arguments out of the water. When it comes to long distances speed is everything.

 

[Bald Rick]

Look at how much APD tax you pay departing from the UK. If you're willing to fly via Amsterdam, where the Dutch scrapped their tax, the price can decrease dramatically. They levy lower taxes on long-haul flights.

APD for UK to most European destinations is £12, for outgoing passengers only.

Tunnel toll that Eurostar have to pay Eurotunnel for each passenger is £22 each way.

I know the charges are levied for entirely different reasons, but it does show how the economics stack up.

As the European high speed network spreads, we will see more longer distances services from the UK, but Air will still be market leader for any journeys above about 600 miles.

 

[jon0844]

Air is not going to be killed by rail, but it is good to have choices.

I live 10 minutes drive from Luton and 30 minutes from Stansted. I can also get to Gatwick easily by train. So, in many cases I'd still opt to fly depending on the timings of the flights, and when I have to arrive somewhere.

But there will be many times when a sleeper would be better and more convenient, so I'd like to have the choice. I also think that there are enough people in the UK and mainland Europe to ensure that sleepers could happily co-exist with airlines.

I'd pay more for the convenience of a decent sleeper service, with Wi-Fi and perhaps a desk to let me do some work. In a few weeks, we're going to Sweden for Christmas and my wife is 7 months pregnant - so rather than fly (just 3 hours) we're going by boat to Denmark and then train to Stockholm, with a stop over in Malmo. So it will take nearly 3 days in total. It's not comparable to a low-cost flight, but it suits us (and my wife) and we'll both be able to relax throughout.

That can't be a totally unique situation, so I am sure sleepers would find their market without much trouble. It's not as if there would be loads of them to end up with trains running empty (not that Eurostar seems to have this problem).

 

[mralexn]

Are they heavily subsidised on the continent or do they manage to make them operate more economically? I've always wandered why they don't have couchettes on UK sleepers, surely they would provide better loadings and cheaper tickets to compete with airlines. Just appears to be 1 or 2 bed sleeping births, I would be quite happy with 4 or 6 bed couchettes that I have use on the continent.

Im sorry but that sounds terrible, The main reason i use the sleepers is because i can be in my own room and have my own space, and what happens if someone snores like a train... :P

 

[WestCoast]

APD for UK to most European destinations is £12, for outgoing passengers only.

Tunnel toll that Eurostar have to pay Eurotunnel for each passenger is £22 each way.

Yes, but using an airport isn't free and airlines must pay the airport operator and a handling agent (similar to the 'tunnel toll'), this fee is often above £22. This is in addition to APD.