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Do track renewal schedules affect route capacity enhancement projects?

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70014IronDuke

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Route capacity enhancement projects obviously go through stringent cost-benefit analyses/studies which these days seem to take years and cost the earth (at least from what I read in here).

My question, however, is when such jobs are being considered, are track renewal schedules taken into account? And if so, can they 'tip the balance' in terms of which project gets the go-ahead?

As an example: Let's take a single line route that the TOCs / Network Rail would like to see enhanced with a new passing loop(s), say, like the Highland main line, which has been discussed here in the past.

Let's say Network Rail (I assume?) identify three priority sites for passing loops of, say, 400m length (I guess that's realistic?) all roughly equal in terms of improving capacity on the line, and all close in terms of estimated costs.

At one site (Site A) however, the current single track is due for renewal in any case: so here, installing a passing loop could be done at the same time, and more cheaply overall - rather than simply relaying at Site A and putting in a loop at Site B or C (where, say, the current track is fine for another 10 years).

Taking this a step further, does the "track renewal" department of NR actually put forward works in order for enhancements to be considered? eg If a section of track on the Highland at, say, Stanley needs renewal, do they go to the "route enhancment" department and say: "Look, we're due to renew this mile of track at Stanley in 24 months time - is it worth looking at installing a passing loop at the same time?"

Apologies if this is a stupid question - maybe this is automatically taken into account, or there may be hundreds of reasons why it can't work this way, but from the outside, it seems an obvious aspect that should be taken into account - but due to typical corporate communication blocks, doesn't happen automatically.
 
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The Planner

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Yes, they have a control period work bank like all the various disciplines do and if they require access to do something and someone else needs to do work in the same location it is integrated. However, they won't approach the enhancement, it will be the other way around as renewal has a lot more flexibility in the main to be moved and they don't have any idea if an enhancement is required or would propose one.
 

DarloRich

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Yes - cost avoidance is part of the business case.

Btw Your first sentence shows considerable ignorance of the process involved in spending tax payers money sensibly.
 

Joseph_Locke

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Aah, the shifting sands of renewals workbanks ...

The Route Asset Managers (RAM) nevr have enough money, but do have flexibility to determine what they don't do, so as soon as an enhancement project comes up it can be astonishing how little work the RAMs have planned in the area, all of which is suddenly quite urgent!
 

DarloRich

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Aah, the shifting sands of renewals workbanks ...

The Route Asset Managers (RAM) nevr have enough money, but do have flexibility to determine what they don't do, so as soon as an enhancement project comes up it can be astonishing how little work the RAMs have planned in the area, all of which is suddenly quite urgent!

Everyone was in favour of the work as long as someone else paid for it ;)
 

Joseph_Locke

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Everyone was in favour of the work as long as someone else paid for it ;)

And this is why the grand plan of getting others to fund railway projects is doomed to failure. Let's say you're the head East Gribble council, and you get your pet transport consultant to cost up your grand scheme. You don't want to spend much money at this stage, so you don't engage with NR in any deep way. Based on this initial assessment (which is potentially completely realistic) you engage formally with NR (at no small expense) to be told, after a few months) that your grand scheme is going to trigger a complete resignalling of the area (on inspection, the condition of the asset is too poor to support modifications) which in turn requires a complete renewal of the 650V signalling equipment and provision of a whole new supply point, plus numerous pieces of extra track work (the existing is non-compliant and must be relaid) and addressing some legacy gauge clearance issues (which your plan affects, so you have to pay for fixing them) .. and so on.

Et voila, no business case (the costs have gone up by 50%) but you've spent £200k finding that out - it just isn't attractive.

This is why, as an uninvolved observer, I find this thread so naive, as was the work done 10 or so years ago that suggested that a Manchester - Crewe shuttle via Middlewich has a business case. The possibilities for increased costs due to legacy issues are just phenomenal.
 
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DarloRich

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I agree - however it should be possible to attract third party funding to projects already specified but which are marginal and are judged to return less value for money than other projects.

The big problem for me is delivering a return on third party investment that would be acceptable to commercial enterprises. The railway tends to look at very long term asset life and return on investment compared to the commercial world.
 

Joseph_Locke

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I agree - however it should be possible to attract third party funding to projects already specified but which are marginal and are judged to return less value for money than other projects.

The big problem for me is delivering a return on third party investment that would be acceptable to commercial enterprises. The railway tends to look at very long term asset life and return on investment compared to the commercial world.

Only if the "polluter pays" merry-go-round gets stopped - DfT should pick up the tab for ancillary costs triggered by bringing the asset base up to a fit state for the enhancement, not innocent bystanders.
 

DarloRich

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Only if the "polluter pays" merry-go-round gets stopped - DfT should pick up the tab for ancillary costs triggered by bringing the asset base up to a fit state for the enhancement, not innocent bystanders.

Agreed again - it isn't going to happen though ;)

The big issue is the historic lack of investment and subsequent sweating of assets to "buy" extra life
 

70014IronDuke

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Yes, they have a control period work bank like all the various disciplines do and if they require access to do something and someone else needs to do work in the same location it is integrated. However, they won't approach the enhancement, it will be the other way around as renewal has a lot more flexibility in the main to be moved and they don't have any idea if an enhancement is required or would propose one.
Sorry, still not fully clear to me. From what you say, the enhancement projects take priority (fair enough) - but it's just on a 'fortuitous' basis if the track needs renewal? OR would/could, as in my theoretical scenario, Site A win out to be done based on the extra cost-saving since the track needs renewal in any case?
 

mcmad

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Honestly, the cost of 1/4 mile of track renewals would be so insignificant against the costs of installing a passing loop as to make no difference to the business case for the loop.
 

Ships

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Aah, the shifting sands of renewals workbanks ...

The Route Asset Managers (RAM) nevr have enough money, but do have flexibility to determine what they don't do, so as soon as an enhancement project comes up it can be astonishing how little work the RAMs have planned in the area, all of which is suddenly quite urgent!

You should know thats not true, if there are renewals planned in the area of an enhancement scheme and the enhancement needs said work to be delivered the money's transfered over to the enhancement scheme.

However often the enhancement drives the need for renewals, in which case the domestic funding wouldn't wouldn't be used as a matter of course.
 

Ships

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Route capacity enhancement projects obviously go through stringent cost-benefit analyses/studies which these days seem to take years and cost the earth (at least from what I read in here).

My question, however, is when such jobs are being considered, are track renewal schedules taken into account? And if so, can they 'tip the balance' in terms of which project gets the go-ahead?

As an example: Let's take a single line route that the TOCs / Network Rail would like to see enhanced with a new passing loop(s), say, like the Highland main line, which has been discussed here in the past.

Let's say Network Rail (I assume?) identify three priority sites for passing loops of, say, 400m length (I guess that's realistic?) all roughly equal in terms of improving capacity on the line, and all close in terms of estimated costs.

At one site (Site A) however, the current single track is due for renewal in any case: so here, installing a passing loop could be done at the same time, and more cheaply overall - rather than simply relaying at Site A and putting in a loop at Site B or C (where, say, the current track is fine for another 10 years).

Taking this a step further, does the "track renewal" department of NR actually put forward works in order for enhancements to be considered? eg If a section of track on the Highland at, say, Stanley needs renewal, do they go to the "route enhancment" department and say: "Look, we're due to renew this mile of track at Stanley in 24 months time - is it worth looking at installing a passing loop at the same time?"

Apologies if this is a stupid question - maybe this is automatically taken into account, or there may be hundreds of reasons why it can't work this way, but from the outside, it seems an obvious aspect that should be taken into account - but due to typical corporate communication blocks, doesn't happen automatically.

No is the short answer, funding for planned renewals doesn't get taken into account for enhancement business cases.

In your case the cost of adding a loop is incomparable to renewing 400 or even 775m of plain line, the renewal might cost £400/775k respectively. A loop would be £2 million plus right off the bat just for the two units of S&C, then many many millions more for new signalling etc
 
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