Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

[birchesgreen]

Try that in the country...

Though if you live in the "country" the issue of charging at your own property is less troublesome usually?

 

[Bald Rick]

Try that in the country...

try what?

 

[ComUtoR]

Is this in response to the Channel 5 programme tonight?

The subscriptions thing was also brought up at the end of the C5 programme - why should you have to sign up to a "club" or give over your personal details just to activate a charger? The blasted things charge over-the-odds for electricity anyway, so why can't you just tap or swipe your card as you would at a petrol station? They showed an example of a charging station which allows exactly this but it's almost unique in the country.

The worst moment was when he plugged in his car and then came back to find he was charged £6 but didn't get any lecky !

 

[SargeNpton]

I don't know anyone who drives "further to find somewhere to refill". I certainly don't. I refill at somewhere en-route to a destination, or at my local supermarket on the same visit as buying groceries. Goodness knows where they found the space for those 40,000 petrol stations in 1950, I guess there were village shops with a pump outside, and every repair workshop had one too (there is still one like that near me). Petrol stations, bigger now, nevertheless appear to be everywhere today, unless you are in the wilds of Scotland but I guess that was the case in 1950 too.

I am disappointed that the EV policy revolves around in-car charging. It should have been based on battery swapping which could be done at wayside stations in a couple of minutes (like petrol refilling) in automated drive-through changing bays, the batteries being re-charged out the back. People with driveways could additionally charge at home, so there would be the best of both worlds. I'd get an EV like a shot if we had wayside battery swapping, but as it is I'll wait and see.

Before someone says you need to break the journey anyway, I agree, but I don't want to break my journey at grotty crowded and expensive-to-eat places that wayside recharging stations will be, together with all the "charger rage" which will become an increasing problem as EVs become more popular.

I guess that you don't know exactly how batteries are fitted into electric cars. Each car body is designed around the maximum amount of batteries it can hold, and where they can be fitted to ensure even weight distribution.

Having a standard size battery pack that could be swapped out in that manner is just not possible.

 

[AM9]

I guess that you don't know exactly how batteries are fitted into electric cars. Each car body is designed around the maximum amount of batteries it can hold, and where they can be fitted to ensure even weight distribution.

Having a standard size battery pack that could be swapped out in that manner is just not possible.

And that's aside from te issues of battery availability, condition and the problem of reliable high current electrical contacts.

 

[kevin_roche]

There is some way to go before people will be able to charge an electric car when they need to.

I have a plug-in hybrid car and there are several issues when I try to charge it away from home. The first is a lack of chargers and the second is when there is a charger it invariable needs a new app on my phone to activate it. I recently had to update my phone so I could add a new app! The second is that having the app doesn't mean it will work. At an underground car park in Birmingham, the app failed because there was no phone signal and no wi-fi signal. The third is that some charger companies are charging so much that it can still be cheaper to use petrol!

Tried to charge it in a park and ride car park in Oxford and the charger wasn't working. When I called to ask if someone was coming to fix it they said it had not been working for 4 months.
Tried to charge it at the motorway services recently and found two chargers neither of which was working.

I am thankful that I bought a hybrid or I would be stuck somewhere on the back of a breakdown truck.

 

[Ken H]

Though if you live in the "country" the issue of charging at your own property is less troublesome usually?

Not for me. The narrow lane out the front of my house is a public highway. No access round the back - the house is built into a hill (The back path runs at windowsill height). I have to park about 200 yards away. Its national park/conservation area so I think getting planning permission for loads of EV chargers would be difficult. Loads of houses here don't have drives etc. Most of the houses are mid 19th century. Mine is 1850.

 

[Ken H]

try what?

charging an EV at shops etc. None at local supermarket. non in the market place (probably would be difficult as conservation area) There is one at the village 1,5 miles away but what do I do while my car charges? Pub is only open a few days a week. Nowt else there.

 

[AM9]

Not for me. The narrow lane out the front of my house is a public highway. No access round the back - the house is built into a hill (The back path runs at windowsill height). I have to park about 200 yards away. Its national park/conservation area so I think getting planning permission for loads of EV chargers would be difficult. Loads of houses here don't have drives etc. Most of the houses are mid 19th century. Mine is 1850.

Ultimately those deciding on what is and isn't allowed in 'sensitive' areas will be confronted with the real decision, are they going to stand in the way of decarbonisation of transport because it spoils some people's view or are they going to understand the real issues of the 21st century.

 

[Bald Rick]

charging an EV at shops etc. None at local supermarket. non in the market place (probably would be difficult as conservation area) There is one at the village 1,5 miles away but what do I do while my car charges? Pub is only open a few days a week. Nowt else there.

But that is changing. There’s new charging points popping up all over the place, and will be for the next decade.

and whilst it may not be feasible for you, in your part of the country, right now, don’t make the mistake of assuming that it is therefore not going to work for everyone else, ever.

 

[MattA7]

Why does the EV charger have to be activated using an app on your phone? What’s wrong with paying with a card like pay at the pump in petrol stations. I believe some EV chargers require you to be a member of “their club” or something like that. Absolutely ridiculous.

There is far to much of this “app on your phone” nonsense. Even some kitchen appliances have no controls except for a on/off switch and you use a app to tell the oven, washing machine etc what setting you want.

 

[skyhigh]

Why does the EV charger have to be activated using an app on your phone? What’s wrong with paying with a card like pay at the pump in petrol stations. I believe some EV chargers require you to be a member of “their club” or something like that. Absolutely ridiculous.

There is far to much of this “app on your phone” nonsense. Even some kitchen appliances have no controls except for a on/off switch and you use a app to tell the oven, washing machine etc what setting you want.

The majority don't need an app and take contactless payments instead these days.

 

[AM9]

Why does the EV charger have to be activated using an app on your phone? What’s wrong with paying with a card like pay at the pump in petrol stations. I believe some EV chargers require you to be a member of “their club” or something like that. Absolutely ridiculous.

There is far to much of this “app on your phone” nonsense. Even some kitchen appliances have no controls except for a on/off switch and you use a app to tell the oven, washing machine etc what setting you want.

That's up to the person who chooses such an appliance. On EV chargers, I think there will be some regulation regarding charges, compatibility (over and above the trend for CCS1 & 2 being the most universal type). Once those are far enough ahead of the others, it won't be viable for a car manufacturer to introduce models with anything else. I think there will also be rules about security of availability of chargers, maybe as part of a licence to receive supplies for charging purposes. Just look how petrol is sold in some 3rd world countries, - similar to what was normal in the UK many years ago.

 

[PeterC]

The majority don't need an app and take contactless payments instead these days.

But how many of those first require opening an account to register the card? I just checked one local authority, in a tourist area, and all public car park charging required an account. One provider was app only the other, according to their website, allowed contactless if the card was registered. So two different apps needed depending on which car park you used.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But how many of those first require opening an account to register the card? I just checked one local authority, in a tourist area, and all public car park charging required an account. One provider was app only the other, according to their website, allowed contactless if the card was registered. So two different apps needed depending on which car park you used.

The issue this causes is overstated. For most it is a very minor inconvenience. I have 3 parking apps for instance.

Could it be better? Yes. Would it put me off? No, the only things that do are the high purchase cost and lack of a used market unless you want a Nissan Leaf.

 

[Bald Rick]

Meanwhile, the used market for EVs is developing quickly...

Electric models drive second-hand car sales higher

Sales of used cars have risen, with greener electric and hybrid vehicles climbing fastest.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[skyhigh]

But how many of those first require opening an account to register the card? I just checked one local authority, in a tourist area, and all public car park charging required an account. One provider was app only the other, according to their website, allowed contactless if the card was registered. So two different apps needed depending on which car park you used.

I've never found a charger that accepts a contactless debit/credit card and also requires registration in over 30,000 miles of electric only driving. I'd be interested to know who claims you need that?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Meanwhile, the used market for EVs is developing quickly...

Electric models drive second-hand car sales higher

Sales of used cars have risen, with greener electric and hybrid vehicles climbing fastest.

www.bbc.co.uk

It is getting there. As I keep cars for 3-5 years I can perhaps see one more petrol or petrol hybrid, but I will definitely be getting an EV used once the price and range is right.

Edit: by range I don't mean battery capacity, I mean choice of vehicles I like.

 

[Harpers Tate]

As an EV user (exclusively, for > 4 years) I'll offer these observations. I offer these fully accepting that there will be a tiny minority of people who quite literally cannot (at present) fit inside these comments, but in the belief that things will continue to improve as they have done during the 4+ years I have been paying attention:

I live in a block of flats/terrace/etc. and can't charge at home
OK. But then, you can't refuel your ICE at home either. So no change there.

When I go elsewhere to charge it takes a lot longer than filling an ICE tank
Yes, it does in absolute terms. That time is reducing as charger power and vehicle's ability improve. But importantly recharging an EV is not an attended activity, unlike refuelling an ICE. You can be doing something else - eating, drinking, taking a leak, shopping etc. are all things we generally do and could be doing as we "refuel" in which case, the time consumed by recharging is practically zero.

What about long trips? I need a car with a >400 mile range.
No, you don't. You think you do, but you don't. Most current EVs will cover over 180 miles and as with other things EV that is improving with newer models. 180 miles represents 3 hours driving at average motorway speeds; 6 hours at average non-motorway speeds. After three or more hours on the road, at the very least most will need a rest stop, even if only to take a leak. And, I'd suggest, should be doing so anyway to improve driving concentration and safety. Again - recharge your vehicle in parallel with any such activity and it takes practically no time at all. In any case, for the vast majority, such trips are an exception. It is flawed to consider exceptional events as deciding factors. So, yes; sometimes you may haver to make a(n) extra stop/s on your once a year trip to Cornwall (etc). Is it right to consider that a showstopper?

Membership of schemes; smartphone apps; too complex.
Agreed. I believe the government has mandated, though, that all new installations are usable simply with a contactless card. Many older units are being retrofitted. Some do remain that require apps/cards/etc. However it is often the case that being a member and/or using an app (etc) gives a reduced tariff. In such cases, you do therefore have a choice in the matter. Pay more for simplicity or pay less with an account and an app (etc). In any case, typically these things are a one-time event in your life. Join and install app, once. Done.

It's all about making simple adjustments. Unlearn that you run your car until it is almost empty and then go to a station to fill it up. Learn instead that you take (or make) any opportunity to add more charge to the car when it's available; even at 75% full, my car will get a top-up if I'm going to an equipped supermarket. Doing that saves time the next time I need more, and it does no harm. At present, it even saves cost. Going out for lunch? Choose the pub that has, or is near to, a charger. etc.

But then we all know that anything new is different, and that different is always a really bad thing - right?

 

[NoRoute]

Why does the EV charger have to be activated using an app on your phone? What’s wrong with paying with a card like pay at the pump in petrol stations. I believe some EV chargers require you to be a member of “their club” or something like that. Absolutely ridiculous.

I believe most rapid chargers (>50kW) now have credit card payment facilities, but most of the fast chargers (7kW / 11kW) don't, so they rely on an app or web payment method, which can be a bit unreliable. It's not great, and probably one of major weaknesses with infrastructure currently. Some work with an RFID card linked to an account.

What is a shame about the UK, is it hasn't been able to get a roaming system up and running like you get in some of the European countries. There you sign up for a single account, get an RFID card and can use this across most or all all of the major charging networks, billed back to a single account without the hassle of apps, web logins, multiple accounts etc. The Netherlands had this system for some years and it would appear to make using charging facilities a lot simpler and straightforward for all users, or all technical abilities.

 

[Mawkie]

Having a standard size battery pack that could be swapped out in that manner is just not possible.

The Chinese car manufacturer Nio have designed such a system and it was demonstrated on the Fully Charged show amongst many others. Nio opened their first battery change station in Norway this year. It takes 6 minutes to change the battery and is fully automatic.

Fully Charged:

 

[johncrossley]

What is so special about the UK in this matter, such that the OP chose to specifically highlight the UK? Is adoption of EVs theoretically any more or less difficult in the UK than elsewhere?

 

[kevin_roche]

The majority don't need an app and take contactless payments instead these days.

That is not my real world experience. There is only one like that in any place I regularly visit. All others require an app and pre-registration to make use of.

 

[Eyersey468]

As an EV user (exclusively, for > 4 years) I'll offer these observations. I offer these fully accepting that there will be a tiny minority of people who quite literally cannot (at present) fit inside these comments, but in the belief that things will continue to improve as they have done during the 4+ years I have been paying attention:

I live in a block of flats/terrace/etc. and can't charge at home
OK. But then, you can't refuel your ICE at home either. So no change there.

When I go elsewhere to charge it takes a lot longer than filling an ICE tank
Yes, it does in absolute terms. That time is reducing as charger power and vehicle's ability improve. But importantly recharging an EV is not an attended activity, unlike refuelling an ICE. You can be doing something else - eating, drinking, taking a leak, shopping etc. are all things we generally do and could be doing as we "refuel" in which case, the time consumed by recharging is practically zero.

What about long trips? I need a car with a >400 mile range.
No, you don't. You think you do, but you don't. Most current EVs will cover over 180 miles and as with other things EV that is improving with newer models. 180 miles represents 3 hours driving at average motorway speeds; 6 hours at average non-motorway speeds. After three or more hours on the road, at the very least most will need a rest stop, even if only to take a leak. And, I'd suggest, should be doing so anyway to improve driving concentration and safety. Again - recharge your vehicle in parallel with any such activity and it takes practically no time at all. In any case, for the vast majority, such trips are an exception. It is flawed to consider exceptional events as deciding factors. So, yes; sometimes you may haver to make a(n) extra stop/s on your once a year trip to Cornwall (etc). Is it right to consider that a showstopper?

Membership of schemes; smartphone apps; too complex.
Agreed. I believe the government has mandated, though, that all new installations are usable simply with a contactless card. Many older units are being retrofitted. Some do remain that require apps/cards/etc. However it is often the case that being a member and/or using an app (etc) gives a reduced tariff. In such cases, you do therefore have a choice in the matter. Pay more for simplicity or pay less with an account and an app (etc). In any case, typically these things are a one-time event in your life. Join and install app, once. Done.

It's all about making simple adjustments. Unlearn that you run your car until it is almost empty and then go to a station to fill it up. Learn instead that you take (or make) any opportunity to add more charge to the car when it's available; even at 75% full, my car will get a top-up if I'm going to an equipped supermarket. Doing that saves time the next time I need more, and it does no harm. At present, it even saves cost. Going out for lunch? Choose the pub that has, or is near to, a charger. etc.

But then we all know that anything new is different, and that different is always a really bad thing - right?

I get what you are saying though a lot of people, myself included, simply can't afford the extra capital cost of an EV. There is also the question how long do the batteries last and how much do they cost to replace.

 

[SargeNpton]

The Chinese car manufacturer Nio have designed such a system and it was demonstrated on the Fully Charged show amongst many others. Nio opened their first battery change station in Norway this year. It takes 6 minutes to change the battery and is fully automatic.

Fully Charged:

1) They just now need to convince every other car manufacturer to fall into line.
2) The battery packs needs to be suitable for small city runabouts and for large SUVs, otherwise the changing stations will need to carry a range of sizes to match each category of car
3) The system needs to be future-proofed so that any development in battery technology fits into that standard space

 

[seagull]

What is so special about the UK in this matter, such that the OP chose to specifically highlight the UK? Is adoption of EVs theoretically any more or less difficult in the UK than elsewhere?

Yes, it is more difficult here compared to at least some other countries. See 2nd paragraph of post #50.

 

[johncrossley]

Yes, it is more difficult here compared to at least some other countries. See 2nd paragraph of post #50.

That's just incompetence. It has nothing to do with specific difficulties posed by British geography.

 

[Ediswan]

2) The battery packs needs to be suitable for small city runabouts and for large SUVs, otherwise the changing stations will need to carry a range of sizes to match each category of car

You could conceivably use one pack in small cars, two in medium, three in large etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I get what you are saying though a lot of people, myself included, simply can't afford the extra capital cost of an EV.

That's where I sit. Well, I could afford it, but I'm unwilling to pay it. I could buy a Nissan Leaf but I don't want one; small hatches are not my thing, I either want a large estate (Mondeo/Insignia size) or a medium SUV.

There is also the question how long do the batteries last and how much do they cost to replace.

There isn't really; pretty much all of them have a long warranty on the batteries, and there's plenty of evidence from the huge number of Nissan Leafs about how they perform.

1) They just now need to convince every other car manufacturer to fall into line.
2) The battery packs needs to be suitable for small city runabouts and for large SUVs, otherwise the changing stations will need to carry a range of sizes to match each category of car
3) The system needs to be future-proofed so that any development in battery technology fits into that standard space

Or forget the idea, as it simply doesn't make sense. Faster and more widespread charging is the way to fix the issue, in so much as it is one. The idea that every parking space in towns, at motorway services and every home is equipped with a trickle charger (i.e. 13A) would deal with the issue, you'd plug in whenever you parked.

 

[seagull]

That's just incompetence. It has nothing to do with specific difficulties posed by British geography.

I won't disagree with that assessment of the cause, it is indeed incompetence, but as the OP didn't mention geography, it is relevant to the question posed, and the likely reason that the UK is indeed a location where it is "more difficult", because of that lack of joined up thinking.