Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

[Harpers Tate]

I get what you are saying though a lot of people, myself included, simply can't afford the extra capital cost of an EV. There is also the question how long do the batteries last and how much do they cost to replace.

Point 1 - no disagreement there - but I suspect they will fall. Any new "tech" comes at a premium.
Point 2 - my car's battery has a manufacturers warranty of 8 years/100k miles. Whilst that's not any direct indication, it does suggest that the real-world lifetime will be much, much longer. Noone is going to warranty something with any great likelihood a claim will fall due. Note that, entirely unlike most consumer electronics, EV batteries are cocooned in sophisticated management software and equipment to maintain temperature and charging speeds and so on. An entire battery pack currently costs of the order of £10k to replace, but it's often the case that a failure is caused by only one cell pack (out of many). As the market matures, I would expect to see individual cell pack replacement becoming "a thing". If you go looking, I seem to recall there is (was?) a YouTube video of exactly this being done to an otherwise unusable (old) Leaf at a cost of £1k, restoring the car to as new (electrically). Offset against this eventual expense (which, as I say, may not need to be that huge) is the almost complete lack of maintenance that is needed on ICEs. No new plugs, rings, clutch plates, turbochargers......the list goes on.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Point 1 - no disagreement there - but I suspect they will fall. Any new "tech" comes at a premium.
Point 2 - my car's battery has a manufacturers warranty of 8 years/100k miles. Whilst that's not any direct indication, it does suggest that the real-world lifetime will be much, much longer. Noone is going to warranty something with any great likelihood a claim will fall due. Note that, entirely unlike most consumer electronics, EV batteries are cocooned in sophisticated management software and equipment to maintain temperature and charging speeds and so on. An entire battery pack currently costs of the order of £10k to replace, but it's often the case that a failure is caused by only one cell pack (out of many). As the market matures, I would expect to see individual cell pack replacement becoming "a thing". If you go looking, I seem to recall there is (was?) a YouTube video of exactly this being done to an otherwise unusable (old) Leaf at a cost of £1k, restoring the car to as new (electrically). Offset against this eventual expense (which, as I say, may not need to be that huge) is the almost complete lack of maintenance that is needed on ICEs. No new plugs, rings, clutch plates, turbochargers......the list goes on.

Not to mention that sometimes ICE cars end up needing entire new engines which has a not dissimilar cost.

 

[Harpers Tate]

...nor to mention the TCOU (total cost of ownership and use).

Real-world calculation with no fakery. In 2017 I took the decision to retire my 12+ year old Nissan XTrail in favour of a brand new Hyundai Ioniq. I kept that car two years until I traded it for a new/upgraded model - the car I currently have. The Nissan was sold privately. I calculated the cost comparison between keeping the old diesel vs. driving the 2017 EV for two years. Account for depreciation of both, fuel cost, estimated maintenance cost for the Diesel (inc. some stuff revealed by the MOT history since I sold it), tax, insurance. Everything I could think of.

Net difference over 2 years between a 12+ year old (with a cassette player!) and a brand new high spec EV: About zero.

 

[Bald Rick]

Unlearn that you run your car until it is almost empty and then go to a station to fill it up. Learn instead that you take (or make) any opportunity to add more charge to the car when it's available;

as I have to say to my elderly parents - go where you can, not when you must.

 

[158756]

I live in a block of flats/terrace/etc. and can't charge at home
OK. But then, you can't refuel your ICE at home either. So no change there.

You can't, but you can refuel in a few minutes at any petrol station like anyone else. Chargers up here are not particularly numerous and rapid chargers few and far between, so if you want to charge an EV you might have to go out of your way to park at a charger and stay there for hours to get a proper charge.

Availability of chargers might change over time, though it doesn't look to me like they are multiplying as quickly as EV sales, but there's also the issue that public charging points are much more expensive than charging at home, and it is disproportionately less well off people who live in properties without the ability to charge at home.

 

[MattA7]

What is so special about the UK in this matter, such that the OP chose to specifically highlight the UK? Is adoption of EVs theoretically any more or less difficult in the UK than elsewhere?

The reason I am focusing on the UK is because that’s where myself and the majority of other forum members live. Other countries may well find it easier to go all electric and others (especially third world countries) it may never be possible. It was only august last year that leaded petrol was finally banned worldwide despite being banned in most developed countries more than 2 decades ago.

As previously stated some countries have no interest in EVs but are switching to carbon neutral synthetic fuels instead.

There is also the issue that some other countries have a much better public transport network than we do so a lot of people don’t bother owning a car. In the UK public transport is rather poor compared to other countries.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is also the issue that some other countries have a much better public transport network than we do so a lot of people don’t bother owning a car. In the UK public transport is rather poor compared to other countries.

Car ownership in Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland and the likes is just as high as it is here. It's just that the quality public transport allows for people to leave them at home rather more often.

 

[AM9]

Car ownership in Germany, the Netherlands, Switzerland and the likes is just as high as it is here. It's just that the quality public transport allows for people to leave them at home rather more often.

And, - far more importantly, there isn't thesocial stigma about public (road) transport in most other countries as there is here. It is so pernicious in the debate about green transport.

 

[Falcon1200]

I get what you are saying though a lot of people, myself included, simply can't afford the extra capital cost of an EV.

And that was the issue for me too, when I bought a new car in 2020; The cost of a comparable EV is simply too high. Hopefully prices will come down to a reasonable level.

 

[Ken H]

And that was the issue for me too, when I bought a new car in 2020; The cost of a comparable EV is simply too high. Hopefully prices will come down to a reasonable level.

My last car was quite old when I bought it 6 yrs ago, but it was £5k, and I have run it ever since. My mileage is low as I have been WFH since May 2018. So I dont see me changing car soon. It goes, its reliable and it passes its MOT each year. Even if I could manage an EV (nowhere to park it) i would balk at the cost of getting one.

 

[AM9]

And that was the issue for me too, when I bought a new car in 2020; The cost of a comparable EV is simply too high. Hopefully prices will come down to a reasonable level.

They will come down to a level where the industry has a viable market. The cost of an EV vs an ICV should only be compared on a whole-life* basis.
'whole-life' as in the cost from acquision to disposal including sale onto another buyer.

 

[GLC]

You can buy a Nissan Leaf for under £5k these days, a 41kWh Renault Zoe for under £10k(which is really the minimum battery size I could cope with personally). My own EV is a BMW i3 (33kWh battery plus range extender) which was £19k for a 6 year old model from a BMW dealership (so manufacturer warranty etc). And of course the running costs are so much lower. I can’t charge at home so I make heavy use of (mostly free) public chargers, along with the occasional tank of petrol for the REx in the i3. I’ve covered about 3000 miles in mine since I bought it, and it’s cost ~£100 to do that. Granted free public charging has heavily skewed those numbers, but a journey which previously cost me £150 alone in petrol in my old (not very efficient granted) ICE car now costs me £30 in rapid charging + petrol. If I had a pure electric EV the price difference would be even greater

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Leaf gives a reasonable indication of used values for other EVs, but they don't suit everyone. I wouldn't be interested in a small car, I want something bigger, and I'm not interested in the huge depreciation hit of buying new.

 

[Eyersey468]

What is the equivalent to a Leaf in terms of size?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is the equivalent to a Leaf in terms of size?

It's about Vauxhall Astra/Ford Focus hatch sized, isn't it? I either want a large estate, one of those van derived MPVs* or an SUV.

* There is an e-Berlingo/Combo/Rifter, but the range is appallingly low - about 120 miles real-world if I recall.

 

[Eyersey468]

It's about Vauxhall Astra/Ford Focus hatch sized, isn't it? I either want a large estate or an SUV.

Thanks

 

[SargeNpton]

They will come down to a level where the industry has a viable market. The cost of an EV vs an ICV should only be compared on a whole-life* basis.
'whole-life' as in the cost from acquision to disposal including sale onto another buyer.

Most people budget separately for...

a) purchase price
b) fixed annual running costs (annual service/road tax/insurance/etc)
c) variable running cost (fuel/tyres/other consumables)

It's no good the whole-life cost being about the same if the initial purchase price is outside of their current budget.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Most people budget separately for...

a) purchase price
b) fixed annual running costs (annual service/road tax/insurance/etc)
c) variable running cost (fuel/tyres/other consumables)

It's no good the whole-life cost being about the same if the initial purchase price is outside of their current budget.

Very true, and the purchase price will often be limited by the amount of finance they are able to obtain based on their credit rating.

It's no good saying "if you spend £30K on an EV you'll pay next to nothing on fuel" if you can't borrow £30K, as the vast majority of the population indeed can't.

 

[PlatformEdgeVT]

The problem I have with EVs is if you don't have a driveway and you park by the pavement. You're gonna have to put a wire across the pavement, which is inconvenient for you and people who pass by. There are some lampposts with charging stations in them, but they are very rare. I don't think a majority EV country will happen too soon.

 

[Ken H]

The problem I have with EVs is if you don't have a driveway and you park by the pavement. You're gonna have to put a wire across the pavement, which is inconvenient for you and people who pass by. There are some lampposts with charging stations in them, but they are very rare. I don't think a majority EV country will happen too soon.

many houses built more than 120 years ago dont have easy vehicular access close to their house. I dont. My car is 200 yards away. 120 years ago there were no cars, no domestic electricity so no provision for EV's.

 

[Harpers Tate]

The problem I have with EVs is if you don't have a driveway and you park by the pavement. You're gonna have to put a wire across the pavement, which is inconvenient for you and people who pass by. There are some lampposts with charging stations in them, but they are very rare. I don't think a majority EV country will happen too soon.

No, you don't. You refuel it simlarly to a liquid fuelled car - away from home. That is, of course, best done whilst you are doing something else (eg eating out, shopping, etc.), as so doing saves time. It is also best done often - whenever such an opportunity arises or can be created, since that, too, saves time. In other words, it takes practically no time at all, if you are doing something else you were going to do anyway.

 

[Bertone]

The problem I have with EVs is if you don't have a driveway and you park by the pavement. You're gonna have to put a wire across the pavement, which is inconvenient for you and people who pass by. There are some lampposts with charging stations in them, but they are very rare. I don't think a majority EV country will happen too soon.

A cable / wire across the pavement is more than just “inconvenient”, as my wife found out when she tripped over one laid across a hotel public walkway, which was charging a golf buggy at night.
Major surgery to her smashed shoulder followed by four + months recuperating!
………and she still can’t raise her arm to the full extent - not good.

End of sob story!

 

[AM9]

The problem I have with EVs is if you don't have a driveway and you park by the pavement. You're gonna have to put a wire across the pavement, which is inconvenient for you and people who pass by. There are some lampposts with charging stations in them, but they are very rare. I don't think a majority EV country will happen too soon.

At the moment probably, but in order to get the volume of converts up, there will be arrangements for those without off street charging. @Bald Rick has posted several times that there are already quite a few kerbside charging points near where he lives.
If the UK government is going to meet it's declared decarbonising milestones, there will be sufficient facilities to make it practical to run the correct vehicles.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At the moment probably, but in order to get the volume of converts up, there will be arrangements for those without off street charging. @Bald Rick has posted several times that there are already quite a few kerbside charging points near where he lives.
If the UK government is going to meet it's declared decarbonising milestones, there will be sufficient facilities to make it practical to run the correct vehicles.

A move to one way systems with herringbone layout parking on one side of the road with charging posts will be necessary in terraced areas. I suspect there'll still be arguments about parking, though. It might in cheaper areas be worth buying and demolishing a few houses to provide more bays.

 

[AM9]

A cable / wire across the pavement is more than just “inconvenient”, as my wife found out when she tripped over one laid across a hotel public walkway, which was charging a golf buggy.
Major surgery to her smashed shoulder followed by four + months recuperating!

See my post above, (and several from others over recent months,), suitable safe charging optionswill be provided in due course.
It is illegal to obstruct a footpath with an unattended cable and offenders are subject to damages claims any injury. I know that compensation is a poor substitute for a safe pavement, but I hope that you wife has received recompense for her injuries.

 

[Bertone]

See my post above, (and several from others over recent months,), suitable safe charging optionswill be provided in due course.
It is illegal to obstruct a footpath with an unattended cable and offenders are subject to damages claims any injury. I know that compensation is a poor substitute for a safe pavement, but I hope that you wife has received recompense for her injuries.

Thank you AM9.
Hotel admitted liability initially with interim compensation payment but then went quiet.
Finally settled after legal intervention.

 

[Ediswan]

120 years ago there were no cars, no domestic electricity

It would be fair to say that neither was commonplace, but both definitely did exist.

 

[johncrossley]

Where is all the infrastructure in Norway? I've browsed Oslo and other main towns in Norway on Google Street View for several minutes and I can see little evidence of charging infrastructure. That suggests it might not be necessary for high EV penetration.

 

[NoRoute]

Some interesting responses but quite a lot seem to be focused on whether it is possible for a particular person to buy and run an EV today, ignoring that the switch to EVs isn't taking place today or tomorrow, but over the next 20 years, so while many of the points are true today, they won't be true in 5, 10 or 15 years time.

 

[Eyersey468]

I had a look at Leafs on Autotrader earlier out of interest, the cheapest one within 60 miles of me was £5490 for a 12 reg one and it was a private sale. I know used car prices are high at the moment but over £5k for a 10 year old family car seems steep to me. I paid £7k for a 15 reg Focus diesel last August.