Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

[KenA]

The normal domestic supply for an average house in an area with gas supplies for heating is set at about 3KW average and 6KW peak. The substation and the main feeders will be scaled for that. That does not stop an odd house taking more that, provided the neighboring hoses take less. Some users like myself (single and careful) use less typically between 4 and 8 units a day. My maximum usage is a 7KW shower that is only used for a few minuets a day.

However if most the houses in my road start putting 7KW chargers on simultaneously for long periods the feeder cable to the road and substation could overheat and fail. This could be worse in some area where there has been infill development or more hoses added, for example a large hose demolished and a block of flats built in its place. With increasing efficiency of domestic appliances such as LED lamps they have been able to get away without major work. However if many of these houses start fitting electric car chargers overload problems could occur and they may need to replace the cables in the street and the substation transformer

&Kw chargers need a EV charging point put in. Not sure if they user 3 phase for them

No expert on the local grid but you can be sure the cable to the substation is not rated for every home to use near a 100A nor will the substation be rated to take that load

Most home now will have a shower it may be electric or may be gas. An immersion heater takes a hefty load as well but they tend not be used that often as the gas will be heating the water normally. Another big load is cookers. Increasingly people use electric ovens. Hobs tended to be gas as eclectic was not so good but induction hobs have changed that and more and more people are using electric hobs

Yoy dd al the other things up in the house and it is quite a load. Lighting. TV. Computer. Fridge Freezer, Washing machine tumble drier etc

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2022 ==

Actual data indicates 1 hour for a full charge. The range as well very much depends on weather, load in car and whether heating etc is in use. An EV should not be charged above 80% or run down to less than 10%

 

[jon0844]

Lighting - with LEDs that's likely between 1-7W for most bulbs. I have smart bulbs too, so they can be individually controlled (and a script ensures they turn off even if someone forgets to do so from the switch).

Computer; My M1 MacMini uses about 20W idle and 35W under load.

Fridge freezer; When the compressor is on, it reaches around 150-160W. I have a second freezer that's about the same. In a 24hr period, both use around 1-1.5kW

Washer/Dryer; I use the eco mode now, which has a longer wash cycle but uses a lot less energy - and that consumption is lower throughout.

Smart charging solutions for cars would allow you to charge at less than 7kW if necessary, and vary the times so the grid can balance things more effectively - and I'd hope for some sort of incentive to do so from variable pricing.

I sit here imagining that I'd charge my car overnight, every night (and unless I return home with the car near 0%, in reality you'd never be doing a full charge anyway) but once you get used to things, you'd probably be charging every few days, maybe even weeks. How often do you fill your ICE car (for me, that's every 4-5 weeks)? If you buy an EV with a range of 200-300 miles (higher ranges are coming) are you really doing that every single day?

If you are, you aren't reading this post. You already have an EV and you're already saving an absolute fortune.

 

[Ediswan]

&Kw chargers need a EV charging point put in. Not sure if they user 3 phase for them

Single phase is sufficient for a 7kW charger (assuming sufficient Amps available etc.).

 

[Snow1964]

The normal domestic supply for an average house in an area with gas supplies for heating is set at about 3KW average and 6KW peak. The substation and the main feeders will be scaled for that. That does not stop an odd house taking more that, provided the neighboring hoses take less. Some users like myself (single and careful) use less typically between 4 and 8 units a day. My maximum usage is a 7KW shower that is only used for a few minuets a day.

We have a 5 ring induction hob that can draw 6Kw, a double oven that uses upto 5kw. A 5kw air conditioner for bedrooms, a 3kw air conditioner for study. If we were to run the immersion, turn on the kettle could exceed the 100amp without an EV. But of course most of these would never be on at same time, or just run for minute or two before cutting in and out.

But it is fairly obvious that areas with 2 or 3 electric cars could soon be drawing lots more electricity. However if they are bigger houses they might get more solar panels. But there is big disconnect between EV use and household electricity generation

 

[matacaster]

Given that there's fairly few cars currently for less than £1,000 it's something that's likely to change soon if prices don't fall soon.

However the bigger issue is that of fuel costs. How fuel efficient is a £1,000 car going to be (probably more likely to be lower rather than higher). However if someone's doing 6,000 miles a year in a car averaging 50mpg that's likely to be nearly another £1,000, if that car averages 40mpg then that's nearly £1,200 (177p/l)

Take a look at the new Nissan Ariya. Battery warranty is 10 years, or 650,000 miles, whichever is reached first. And yes, you read that right six hundred and fifty thousand miles!

Its a marketing gimmick. Unless you share the car between 3 shifts continuously, how on earth is anyone going to do 65000 miles each year on average? I suspect there will be few people wanting to keep a 10 year old Nissan having done say 20000 miles a year anyway. Look forward to claims from 3 shift taxi drivers though nissan!

 

[Mawkie]

The national grid cannot cope neither

We need to be robust in refuting this misinformation.

The literal experts in electricity distribution have repeatedly said the national grid can cope.

"There is definitely enough energy and the grid can cope easily,” National Grid Transport Decarbonisation Director Graeme Cooper explains. “The growth in renewable energy means this is not static and smart metering will make this more efficient" (2020)

Can the UK grid cope with the extra demand from electric cars? | National Grid

www.nationalgrid.com

 

[trebor79]

Its a marketing gimmick. Unless you share the car between 3 shifts continuously, how on earth is anyone going to do 65000 miles each year on average? I suspect there will be few people wanting to keep a 10 year old Nissan having done say 20000 miles a year anyway. Look forward to claims from 3 shift taxi drivers though nissan!

Gimmick or not, it gives confidence to people that they don't need to worry about battery degradation.
There are Teslas in America that have done 1,000,000 miles and still over 80% battery health.

We need to be robust in refuting this misinformation.

The literal experts in electricity distribution have repeatedly said the national grid can cope.

"There is definitely enough energy and the grid can cope easily,” National Grid Transport Decarbonisation Director Graeme Cooper explains. “The growth in renewable energy means this is not static and smart metering will make this more efficient" (2020)

Can the UK grid cope with the extra demand from electric cars? | National Grid

www.nationalgrid.com

Indeed. Aside from anything else, the decimation of heavy industry over the past few decades means there's plenty of capacity. Where there may be issues is at very local level - properties on looped supplies and so on but there are technical solutions for that.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not sure how that works. In pure "fuel" terms (ignoring maintenance costs - I accept there's a difference, but I don't believe it is as massive as some claim), if I drive 600 miles a month (7,200 miles a year) in a car which does 55mpg (small Diesel town/ex-urban) and I pay £2/l for fuel (there isn't anywhere around here that charges that just yet, but it's probably coming), that's about £100 a month.

If I have a purely electric car which claims to do 300 miles on a 60kWh charge (that's better than most) and I have signed up for something like Octopus's EV cheap rate and do all my charging at 7.5p/kWh (that's their current rate around here), that comes to £9 a month.

Under those ideal circumstances, the finance, HP or PCP on an electric car can be no more than £90 more expensive than that on an ICE car if you want to "break even". It's worse than that though, because I already have a Diesel with no outstanding finance and I don't have an EV, and Octopus's EV rate comes with a daytime electricity rate (for cooking, cleaning, lighting, TV watching etc) which is currently about 16% higher than their standard flat-rate tariff, so all my other electricity use (let's call it 15kWh per day and 5p difference - it's probably more in the winter) adds another £22.50 per month to the "cost" of the EV.

I'm ignoring future electricity price rises because Diesel is also rising.

If I were to do half my charging at home at 7.5p and half at a public charger at 50p (an effective cost of 28.75p), charging the EV would cost £34.50 so the saving in "fuel" is now just £65.50 per month, or £43 including increased daytime electricity costs.

A 4-year PCP on the cheapest MG EV (the ZS) with a £5,000 deposit and 8,000 miles a year works out to £311 per month with a final payment of £11,800ish

A 4-year PCP on the equivalent MG ZS with a petrol engine, £5,000 deposit and 8,000 miles a year works out to £160 per month with a final payment of under £8,400

I don't think this equates to extra finance costs being "immediately offset". In fact under those conditions, buying and running a new EV costs at least £50 - £70 more per month than buying and running a new petrol car (petrol cars doing fewer miles per gallon than Diesel, but the fuel being slightly cheaper) and you could also add in another £70 per month to account for the difference in final payment, if the intention is to hang on to the car.

It does work rather better if you do more miles. I actually do around 24,000 miles a year in a car which regularly achieves over 60mpg. That amount of mileage might not be possible on some PCPs but leaving that aside, at £2/l that would cost me around £303 a month in Diesel while the electricity - assuming 250 miles / 60kWh because a lot of my driving is motorway and EVs are less efficient on the motorway - would be around £36 (at 7.5p). That £270ish difference is quite a lot of finance, though it reduces to £165 if charging works out to 28.75p/kWh and I think you'd be hard pushed to finance an EV at less than £300 a month, let alone £165 a month.

My point? Yes, an EV is cheaper to run than a Diesel car, however it's not so much of a difference as to make swapping on purely financial grounds viable for me, or for many people I know, even were I needing to buy a new car anyway, and I'm rather hoping to get at least another 5 years out of my current car!

Since I don't have to buy a new car just yet, it's far, far cheaper for me to stick with my Diesel. My next car, in 5 years or so? So long as I can be confident of the range (on the motorway, in the winter, with the battery down to 70% of as-new capacity), definitely electric, but with battery warranties commonly around the 100,000 mile mark, that's only four or five years' driving for me, which isn't a terribly exciting prospect.

M.

I’m afraid you’ve made the all too common mistake of using your own circumstances as typical for everyone.

try running the numbers again with a new diesel car that does 45mpg on typical usage patterns, electricity costs that include at least half free charging at supermarkets etc., and the lease costs of an Audi Q4 e-tron compared to the Diesel Q5.

The national grid cannot cope neither

T Homes are normally fused at a 100A with a single phase supply. Enough to slow charge an EV just but the local grid which ids the cabling from the homes to the local substation will need up grading and a new substation put in if there is any significant uptake of eV's. Many homes have 2 or 3 cars

No expert on the local grid

suggest you leave it to those that are expert in the subject then; as others have pointed out it can easily cope.

 

[KenA]

I’m afraid you’ve made the all too common mistake of using your own circumstances as typical for everyone.

try running the numbers again with a new diesel car that does 45mpg on typical usage patterns, electricity costs that include at least half free charging at supermarkets etc., and the lease costs of an Audi Q4 e-tron compared to the Diesel Q5.








suggest you leave it to those that are expert in the subject then; as others have pointed out it can easily cope.

Not really correct. The National grid have indicated they will need to spend at least £40B to upgrade the grid for EV's

 

[jon0844]

I have no idea what the normal spend to maintain the grid is, but I'd guess it's pretty high (like in the billions). And a lot of businesses that are rolling out fast-charging stations will be paying for the necessary works (and then seeking to make a profit from people using them to charge their EV) so surely a lot of this is beneficial to the economy?

It has been mentioned in passing, but as electricity costs are only going to keep rising, investing in solar panels and a home battery system is another way to charge an EV (even if just partially, using part solar, part grid) and also reduces the strain on the grid. More importantly, it's cheaper - and will keep getting cheaper as electricity goes up in price.

Maybe right now isn't the best time to try and get solar panels, but give it a time for demand to settle and the newer, more-efficient, panels to become more mainstream and I'd say go for it - as long as you're not intending to move soon.

 

[The Ham]

2 car families will probably need a 3 phase supply. Deffo not normal domestic supply. My daughter is a 4 car family - 2 grown up kids still at home. So far only 1 EV but any more will be an issue.

How many miles does each car each week?

With an EV with a range of 120 miles (so needing to charge 90 miles each time). You could do 30 miles a day and only need to charge every 3 days.

30 miles over 260 days (average working year circa 230) is 7,800 miles a year (so fairly average).

That also tallies with that something like 52% of all trips are under 5 miles and very few (average is about 5 trips) are over 150 miles.

As such unless you are someone who does a lot of milage across more than one car, even with 4 cars in the household there's a good chance that only 2 will need to charge at once, and even then probably one could trickle charge overnight. That's assuming that all the charging is done at home and that someone doesn't top up elsewhere or charge at work.

However 4 car households are fairly uncommon, and many of those which are (say due to having early 20's kids) may well be for only a few years.

 

[KenA]

How many miles does each car each week?

With an EV with a range of 120 miles (so needing to charge 90 miles each time). You could do 30 miles a day and only need to charge every 3 days.

30 miles over 260 days (average working year circa 230) is 7,800 miles a year (so fairly average).

That also tallies with that something like 52% of all trips are under 5 miles and very few (average is about 5 trips) are over 150 miles.

As such unless you are someone who does a lot of milage across more than one car, even with 4 cars in the household there's a good chance that only 2 will need to charge at once, and even then probably one could trickle charge overnight. That's assuming that all the charging is done at home and that someone doesn't top up elsewhere or charge at work.

However 4 car households are fairly uncommon, and many of those which are (say due to having early 20's kids) may well be for only a few years.

Trickle czaharge an EV that would take a couple of weeks. Even charging at 13A will take 7 to 10 hours

 

[Bald Rick]

Not really correct. The National grid have indicated they will need to spend at least £40B to upgrade the grid for EV's

As you said in post #241, you’re no expert on the National Grid. Yet someone who is, ie the National Grid Transport Decarbonisation Director, says it can and will cope. See post #246.

Who should I believe?

Trickle czaharge an EV that would take a couple of weeks. Even charging at 13A will take 7 to 10 hours

charging an EV at 13A is trickle charging!

and 7-10 hours…. So what?


please read up on the subject before rubbishing it.

 

[Ediswan]

charging an EV at 13A is trickle charging!

Traditionally, 'trickle charging' is charging just fast enough to match the self-discharge rate.

 

[The Ham]

Traditionally, 'trickle charging' is charging just fast enough to match the self-discharge rate.

Maybe put choice of term, but was used to differentiate between the rapid charging.

Trickle czaharge an EV that would take a couple of weeks. Even charging at 13A will take 7 to 10 hours

Someone returns from home at 10pm and then leaves for work at 7am, that's 9 hours. Plenty long enough to charge up a decent range for the vast majority of travel.

Especially bearing in mind the suggestion was charging every 3 days and adding 90 miles to the battery. Cars with larger batteries may need a longer charge, however would then need charging less frequently if doing the same milage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

but then you have an expensive bit of kit that is useless for half the day. What about going to evening stuff, or being dads taxi. or caring for an elderly relative.
There is nothing like the 10pm phone call. 'Hi, Sorry but Dads not too well. Can you come?'

Exactly how many people drive 200 miles per day on a daily basis? Hardly anyone. 50 miles is a long commute. So if you charged overnight the previous night then you'd have 100 miles left.

Some people just seem to dislike the idea of EVs and are coming up with non-existent issues with them.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jun 2022 ==

The normal domestic supply for an average house in an area with gas supplies for heating is set at about 3KW average and 6KW peak. The substation and the main feeders will be scaled for that. That does not stop an odd house taking more that, provided the neighboring hoses take less. Some users like myself (single and careful) use less typically between 4 and 8 units a day. My maximum usage is a 7KW shower that is only used for a few minuets a day.

However if most the houses in my road start putting 7KW chargers on simultaneously for long periods the feeder cable to the road and substation could overheat and fail. This could be worse in some area where there has been infill development or more hoses added, for example a large hose demolished and a block of flats built in its place. With increasing efficiency of domestic appliances such as LED lamps they have been able to get away without major work. However if many of these houses start fitting electric car chargers overload problems could occur and they may need to replace the cables in the street and the substation transformer

7kW chargers may be an issue, but for overnight charging 13A is fine and perfectly within what the grid can supply. Smart control electronics in chargers will in practice handle things - set the time you want your car fully charged and it'll sort that. Some phones already do do that - recent iPhones certainly do (automatically based on your "do not disturb" hours) so as to lengthen the battery life as slower charging causes less damage.

 

[AM9]

Exactly how many people drive 200 miles per day on a daily basis? Hardly anyone. 50 miles is a long commute. So if you charged overnight the previous night then you'd have 100 miles left.

Some people just seem to dislike the idea of EVs and are coming up with non-existent issues with them.

Precisely, the average daily mileage of cars in 2019 in the UK was around 20, - it has dropped to 14 in 2020 so let's assume that 20 is the future as well. Well that is 140 miles per week so assuming all of those miles are done Monday to Friday, - that's 28 miles per day, so even the lowest range models will only regularly require 10-20kWh overnight. The default home charger is most likely to be 7kW and probably smart types will be mandated. So even with a street full of EVs, they are all likely to be more than able to replenish their day use overnight. The smart feature will automatically sequence charging such that the load is well within the diversity load allowed for and also minimise phase imbalance. Of course in a normal residential area there will be those that use some of the battery capacity to store solar power, further reducing the net draw on supplies, and as a bonus, this reduction will be very local, i.e. does not place any additional load on neighbourhood substations especially when it is generated from PV panels.
For the last three or four years here, there has been a continual stream of ridiculous edge-cases offered as reasons why EVs will fail miserably in every way, - almost always without any attempt to justify assumptions why every EV user should have the same far-fetched usage as they are suggesting.

 

[The Ham]

Precisely, the average daily mileage of cars in 2019 in the UK was around 20, - it has dropped to 14 in 2020 so let's assume that 20 is the future as well. Well that is 140 miles per week so assuming all of those miles are done Monday to Friday, - that's 28 miles per day, so even the lowest range models will only regularly require 10-20kWh overnight. The default home charger is most likely to be 7kW and probably smart types will be mandated. So even with a street full of EVs, they are all likely to be more than able to replenish their day use overnight. The smart feature will automatically sequence charging such that the load is well within the diversity load allowed for and also minimise phase imbalance. Of course in a normal residential area there will be those that use some of the battery capacity to store solar power, further reducing the net draw on supplies, and as a bonus, this reduction will be very local, i.e. does not place any additional load on neighbourhood substations especially when it is generated from PV panels.
For the last three or four years here, there has been a continual stream of ridiculous edge-cases offered as reasons why EVs will fail miserably in every way, - almost always without any attempt to justify assumptions why every EV user should have the same far-fetched usage as they are suggesting.

Agree, even with a marginally longer commute at 30 miles it's possible for 4 cars to be able to be run from a single house and only be charging 2 of them overnight when each car had a range of 120 miles.

You also have to consider that at least some of the population who drive are retired or stay at home parents or WFH some of the time they are likely to want to charge during the day is they have solar panels (which make more sense of you for into one of the groups as you'll use more of the power from the panels without selling back or needing to charge batteries).

That's before you count those doing shift work where they may not be needing to charge at the same time/same days as others.

In the example of someone who WFH Monday and Friday, they may only ever charge from their solar panels (well try to) so they are only going to drawing power when most people are out.

 

[StKeverne1497]

We need to be robust in refuting this misinformation.

The literal experts in electricity distribution have repeatedly said the national grid can cope.

"There is definitely enough energy and the grid can cope easily,” National Grid Transport Decarbonisation Director Graeme Cooper explains. “The growth in renewable energy means this is not static and smart metering will make this more efficient" (2020)

Thanks for posting that - I see a lot of people arguing that the grid won't cope, but it will.

However, it's also worth pointing out that National Grid mostly looks after the "National" grid - that is the 400kV, 275kV and 135kV distribution (big towers), while the 11kV and 415/230V distribution (small towers, wooden poles, underground cables) is the responsibility of companies such as SSE, Western Power, Scottish Power and others. There are eight "Distribution Network Operators" altogether and a few much smaller IDNOs. It is these companies which deal with the "last mile" - that is, getting 230V into your house - and if there are to be any problems with overloading, it's their infrastructure which will bear the brunt. I suspect that in some areas there will be no issues, but that in others - particularly ones which haven't had distribution network upgrades for some time - there will. In the UK it is common to have a single large transformer stepping 11kV down to 230V for large numbers of houses which in some ways is easier to upgrade if necessary than the common practice in some other countries of a small pole-mounted transformer supplying just one or two properties. There might be a problem with the capacity of underground cables from the transformer to your house, but unless the installation is ancient I don't think it's a big one.

It's difficult to predict what will happen when every house has at least one, and in many areas two EVs, but with smart charging now being mandatory I suspect that initially at least the solution is for charging suppliers to work with distribution companies on a transformer-by-transformer basis. For example, while the Octopus special EV rate is nominally between 2330 and 0530, the "smart" charging system works with the DNO and spot electricity pricing and generation mix and will actually charge your car at the time which is cheapest for Octopus, which might not be between those hours.

 

[Mawkie]

Thanks for posting that - I see a lot of people arguing that the grid won't cope, but it will.

However, it's also worth pointing out that National Grid mostly looks after the "National" grid - that is the 400kV, 275kV and 135kV distribution (big towers), while the 11kV and 415/230V distribution (small towers, wooden poles, underground cables) is the responsibility of companies such as SSE, Western Power, Scottish Power and others. There are eight "Distribution Network Operators" altogether and a few much smaller IDNOs. It is these companies which deal with the "last mile" - that is, getting 230V into your house - and if there are to be any problems with overloading, it's their infrastructure which will bear the brunt. I suspect that in some areas there will be no issues, but that in others - particularly ones which haven't had distribution network upgrades for some time - there will. In the UK it is common to have a single large transformer stepping 11kV down to 230V for large numbers of houses which in some ways is easier to upgrade if necessary than the common practice in some other countries of a small pole-mounted transformer supplying just one or two properties. There might be a problem with the capacity of underground cables from the transformer to your house, but unless the installation is ancient I don't think it's a big one.

It's difficult to predict what will happen when every house has at least one, and in many areas two EVs, but with smart charging now being mandatory I suspect that initially at least the solution is for charging suppliers to work with distribution companies on a transformer-by-transformer basis. For example, while the Octopus special EV rate is nominally between 2330 and 0530, the "smart" charging system works with the DNO and spot electricity pricing and generation mix and will actually charge your car at the time which is cheapest for Octopus, which might not be between those hours.

I value your contribution to the discussion.

I see more manufacturers adding Vehicle-to-Grid combined with smart charging capabilities to their vehicles (meaning 'the grid' can request power from your car's battery at times of increased demand and replenish your battery in time for your requested departure time). As an example, I leave for work at 2pm, so would be more than happy to supplement the grid and deplete my battery for the morning toaster and kettle switch on - and wait until 10am to start charging my car.

Do you have any comment on how this impacts, adversely or otherwise, on the local DNOs/national grid?

 

[StKeverne1497]

I’m afraid you’ve made the all too common mistake of using your own circumstances as typical for everyone.

try running the numbers again with a new diesel car that does 45mpg on typical usage patterns, electricity costs that include at least half free charging at supermarkets etc., and the lease costs of an Audi Q4 e-tron compared to the Diesel Q5.

Absolutely not - I used your specific example precisely because I didn't want to turn it into "doesn't work for me so must be rubbish". Even if I recalculate for 45mpg rather than 55mpg (and 45 is quite low for a modern Diesel, even around town) it only makes £20 difference on 600 miles a month and £2/l, so now instead of making a saving of £90 per month in fuel costs which can be put towards finance, it's a saving of £110. I think that I was quite generous doing the calculations at 7.5p/kWh too. There don't seem to be very many supermarkets which give strings-free "free" charging according to Zap Map, and some of those which do are perhaps 7kW chargers or have time limits according to some searches I've done. Even the much-touted Scottish scheme - the headlines for which claim free charging - seems to mostly consist of paid-for charging.

If I do an hour of shopping once a week (which - at the risk of being accused of being specific to me - I don't; I do a lot of shopping at small local shops) that's only 28kWh of "free" a month out of 144 required (by my hypothetical 300 mile / 60kWh EV which I believe is still better than most electric cars currently on the market) which at 7.5p/kWh at home is an absolutely amazing saving of £2.10 a month. Granted, if my local supermarket happened to have 22kW chargers which were truly free and unlimited, that's 88kWh over the month which saves £6.60 @7.5p.

I'm not going to rise to the Audi thing. I specifically used MG because they are widely regarded (alongside Hyundai) as being among the best "value for money" EVs currently on the market. They are certainly getting down to affordable levels, but are not there yet for many people.

Don't get me wrong, if I already had an EV I would not be looking to swap it out for a Diesel, but I really don't think the savings possible make it worthwhile to swap an existing Diesel for EV - whatever mileage is done - until such time as the Diesel needs to be retired anyway and - and yes I'm going to be specific to myself here - given that my current car has just crossed 50,000 miles and my last two managed 200,000ish miles before becoming uneconomic to repair, in my particular case that's 5 or 6 years of driving left in it yet.

 

[jon0844]

Agree, even with a marginally longer commute at 30 miles it's possible for 4 cars to be able to be run from a single house and only be charging 2 of them overnight when each car had a range of 120 miles.

You also have to consider that at least some of the population who drive are retired or stay at home parents or WFH some of the time they are likely to want to charge during the day is they have solar panels (which make more sense of you for into one of the groups as you'll use more of the power from the panels without selling back or needing to charge batteries).

That's before you count those doing shift work where they may not be needing to charge at the same time/same days as others.

In the example of someone who WFH Monday and Friday, they may only ever charge from their solar panels (well try to) so they are only going to drawing power when most people are out.

Another consideration for this home that has 4 EVs in need of daily charging, is the need for a significant driveway to have them all easily charged at once. I suspect that would mean a rather large home, with every chance of having a bigger supply. If it's a regular home, how would anyone be charging all four at once, every night, at full rate for 7-10 hours?

I can't think of any homes on my estate that can take four vehicles off road, without having to mess around to get one car out when another is needed. The homes that can easily take 4 cars, or more, are the homes that cost £2-3m and have a way in and way out, as well as being gated off. These homes also have separate buildings alongside that's part of the same property. I bet a lot of these homes will also have invested in solar, and have the space for a significant number of panels - and room for large batteries. In other words, those people will be fortunate enough to have the means to save money and demand on the grid, as well as having four EVs that aren't exactly cheap runarounds for most people.

Frankly, this 4 car example is a total red herring and an attempt to simply attack EVs in general.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Another consideration for this home that has 4 EVs in need of daily charging

Is there a single home in the UK that has 4 cars and all 4 of them do 200 miles per day? (200 miles seems to be a typical range, or at least heading that way).

I bet there isn't even one. So no, you don't need to be charging all four, every night, at full rate for 7-10 hours. Most will need a charge once a week or so, which means one home charger is fine and you can just rotate round which uses it.

More common are two-car households, and a good many of them do have driveway/garage space for two cars. Indeed I'd probably say that it's more common to have off-road space for zero or two cars, one would be unusual except allocated parking in developments of small houses/flats rather than family homes. OK, some people are too lazy to use the garage, but if it was important to charge both cars that night it'd be an option.

 

[jon0844]

We converted our garage into a spare room, but can get two cars off the road (but one blocks the other). We now have just one car, so it isn't an issue, but if we had two then it wouldn't be easy to run power to both - as the cable would block access to our front door (and be a trip hazard for visitors, delivery drivers etc).

Chances are many second cars are parked on the street, and some councils are offering charging points on lamp posts. In the future, we might see more inductive charging systems - either on the road, or more likely companies offering to install them on driveways (again, maybe more for affluent homeowners or perhaps worth doing if redoing a driveway). That can also allow for easy, slow, charging any time a vehicle is parked - with perhaps faster charging available on demand.

There's so many options, and many things will come down to the personal cost to the homeowner than what the grid can or can't provide.

 

[The Ham]

We converted our garage into a spare room, but can get two cars off the road (but one blocks the other). We now have just one car, so it isn't an issue, but if we had two then it wouldn't be easy to run power to both - as the cable would block access to our front door (and be a trip hazard for visitors, delivery drivers etc).

Chances are many second cars are parked on the street, and some councils are offering charging points on lamp posts. In the future, we might see more inductive charging systems - either on the road, or more likely companies offering to install them on driveways (again, maybe more for affluent homeowners or perhaps worth doing if redoing a driveway). That can also allow for easy, slow, charging any time a vehicle is parked - with perhaps faster charging available on demand.

There's so many options, and many things will come down to the personal cost to the homeowner than what the grid can or can't provide.

Even in such a set up, there's a fairly good chance that only one car would need to be charged at any one time unless both people were driving significant distances every day.

Even if both cars did need charging on the same evening, one could charge until just before bedtime and then the other charge overnight.

Yes you rather have something more than a standard plug socket to charge to get the range added required.

However I suspect that some with that kind of setup (although may not work everywhere) would look to see if there was a way of ensuring that the cables weren't a trip hazard. For example cable mats to cover the cables as they cross between cars, seeing if there was scope to change the walking route to the house and so on. Obviously, not knowing the exact layout being talked about, these options may not be suitable everywhere. However like most things, there's likely to be a suitable solution to most of the issues that most people raise as an issue.

Yes there's going to be edge cases which are going to be an issue. Even things which right now limit the numbers who can have EV's are likely to be resolved over time.

For instance I suspect the next thing companies will do to attract and keep staff is likely to want to have chargers at work. For most spaces at most workplaces there's likely to only be a need for wallplug charging speeds. Even if that charging slowed as more cars for plugged into a cluster of 4 sockets.

That sort of setup, possibly offered for free to staff, could add 25 to 100 miles depending on the number connected at any one time over a standard 8 hour work day (including normal brakes). This would make up the vast majority of spaces. For the "average" user even without home charging that would be enough.

Then there'll likely be a few (bookable, but probably still free) single car charging spaces which could add 100 miles in a day. Even for heavier users without charging at home they may only need this one or two days a week.

Finally a few rapid chargers (most likely shared between several businesses on a business park) to charge up those doing a lot of miles in a day.

Whilst there maybe tax implications to providing free charging, given that there currently isn't for providing free parking, it's likely to be smaller than the cost of charging.

 

[NoRoute]

Charging multiple cars at home is reasonably solvable, there's already charge-points with twin sockets or single sockets with networking, which use some smarter controls to share the available supply capacity between the two or more points, typically dynamically to maximise charging rates. These units are already available for commercial type applications at workplaces, shops etc, as homes with multiple EVs become more common these will likely be sold to in versions targeted at home charging.

 

[StKeverne1497]

I value your contribution to the discussion.

I see more manufacturers adding Vehicle-to-Grid combined with smart charging capabilities to their vehicles (meaning 'the grid' can request power from your car's battery at times of increased demand and replenish your battery in time for your requested departure time). As an example, I leave for work at 2pm, so would be more than happy to supplement the grid and deplete my battery for the morning toaster and kettle switch on - and wait until 10am to start charging my car.

Do you have any comment on how this impacts, adversely or otherwise, on the local DNOs/national grid?

It's an issue of control systems really. There have been cases where new installations of solar PV have been rejected by DNOs because of the amount already connected to a particular transformer, and the same issues apply to V2G and charging, if you think of it that way. With more intelligence in the boxes which connect these things to the grid it should be possible to co-ordinate energy flows in the system as a whole, but I really don't know whether anyone is working towards a centralised or semi-centralised (that is at a DNO level or perhaps an energy supplier level, which already happens with some charging and house battery systems) system for this - which would make a lot of sense from the National Grid's point of view - or whether it's left up to the manufacturers of these boxes to be sensible with their settings. I might look into it further.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2022 ==

For instance I suspect the next thing companies will do to attract and keep staff is likely to want to have chargers at work. For most spaces at most workplaces there's likely to only be a need for wallplug charging speeds. Even if that charging slowed as more cars for plugged into a cluster of 4 sockets.

That sort of setup, possibly offered for free to staff, could add 25 to 100 miles depending on the number connected at any one time over a standard 8 hour work day (including normal brakes). This would make up the vast majority of spaces. For the "average" user even without home charging that would be enough.

Then there'll likely be a few (bookable, but probably still free) single car charging spaces which could add 100 miles in a day. Even for heavier users without charging at home they may only need this one or two days a week.

It's an interesting idea, but more and more workplaces don't even offer a paid-for parking space, let alone a guaranteed free space these days - all in the interests of encouraging more staff on to public transport or bikes - so I'm not sure it's a long-term solution. Some companies do offer incentives for workers who use EVs, but it's not a terribly fair practice given that it's mostly the higher-paid employees who can actually afford an EV at the moment; it can be seen as a perk for management, and once it starts costing the company significant amounts of money (100 employees all plugged in and charging even just at 2kW for eight hours is 1.6MWh, which is quite a lot of money on a daily basis) it'll soon be stopped, as the Chargepoint Scotland experience seems to be showing. And best of luck getting free charging if you work in the public sector - what school, for example, is going to be able to justify free EV charging even for half the teachers, administrative and support staff, when they sometimes can't even seem to find the money to buy exercise books? How about a hospital?

It's similar in some ways to the road tax thing. Yes, road tax for EVs is currently zero, but once the government's income from road tax takes a sufficient hit - as more people have EVs - they will have to replace that revenue somehow and while it may not be setting road tax for EVs at £100 - which would be easy, but politically dangerous - they will definitely want to claw back the money somehow. It's what happened with "low emissions" cars back in the late 2000s - I bought a car in 2011 which was under 120g of CO2 (I think that was the figure) and just £20 a year in tax. Within a year or two of that, the same car with the same engine and very slightly improved emissions was £120 in tax.

 

[Sonik]

It's an issue of control systems really. There have been cases where new installations of solar PV have been rejected by DNOs because of the amount already connected to a particular transformer, and the same issues apply to V2G and charging, if you think of it that way. With more intelligence in the boxes which connect these things to the grid it should be possible to co-ordinate energy flows in the system as a whole, but I really don't know whether anyone is working towards a centralised or semi-centralised (that is at a DNO level or perhaps an energy supplier level, which already happens with some charging and house battery systems) system for this - which would make a lot of sense from the National Grid's point of view - or whether it's left up to the manufacturers of these boxes to be sensible with their settings. I might look into it further.

National Grid already contract for 'balancing services' where large consumers automatically disconnect at peak times in return for (very generous) payments. These are usually either things like food distribution cold stores or industrial furnaces - which can be turned off for 20 mins or so without issue - or users with onsite generators such as hospitals or data centers. This gives NG enough time to fire up additional generation as required.

What's really interesting is that the threshold for contracting to NG for these services is about 10Mw of load, but there are also now third party 'aggregators' who act as middlemen to put together lots of smaller loads, perhaps 1-2Mw each, all controlled by software and data links. The aggregator then contracts with NG for a single, larger load. I'd expect similar models to emerge in future in the consumer space for managing load on DNO networks. Whats really needed is agreement of open standards and APIs for the control elements, but work is being done on this in various places. Expect a proliferation of various competing and non-compatible systems, from which a default standard will eventually emerge!

There is also the challenge of setting it all up (software settings etc.) as the average consumer really needs a solution that is 'plug and play' out the box, e.g. like a Wi-Fi router that comes with the settings and keys printed on the label. Alternatively it could be done by energy suppliers as a professional service (i.e. engineer visits to program your devices) but that would be a minefield too in terms of equipment ownership, supplier tie-in etc.

 

[kevin_roche]

National Grid already contract for 'balancing services' where large consumers automatically disconnect at peak times in return for (very generous) payments. These are usually either things like food distribution cold stores or industrial furnaces - which can be turned off for 20 mins or so without issue - or users with onsite generators such as hospitals or data centers. This gives NG enough time to fire up additional generation as required.

Isn't there a plan (or several) to allow some electric cars to return the power to the place it is plugged in? I have read about a plan to allow and support that but it seems to me that such a car and facility would be incredibly complex. Does anyone know if it works on any current EV and what triggers the power supply from the car?

 

[SargeNpton]

Isn't there a plan (or several) to allow some electric cars to return the power to the place it is plugged in? I have read about a plan to allow and support that but it seems to me that such a car and facility would be incredibly complex. Does anyone know if it works on any current EV and what triggers the power supply from the car?

Why would a car return power to the grid? It would only have to be re-charged again to go anywhere.