Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

[61653 HTAFC]

That is entirely true and understandable. However, slow AC charging isn’t as expensive as rapid DC. For example Ubitricity which operates 1000s of lamppost chargers in London and Liverpool and is expanding elsewhere. It charges 53p peak and 45p 23:00-06:00. Likewise Char.gy operate in a range of locations and seem to have more variable charging rates but those I’ve seen range from 35-59p. So don’t just assume because you’ll have to public charge you’ll be paying the RAC average of 77p. This last figure includes ripoff merchants like Instavolt, and ‘specialist’ networks like Porsche which now charges over £1 to the general public (presumably to keep them away!).

That still puts me at the mercy of whichever of these charging companies makes a deal with my local authority to install lamppost chargers... and considers it viable to provide them in my specific location. As my building is the only residential building on the street with all other structures being businesses, my location is unlikely to be a priority for any of those companies.
EV charging is an entirely new ecosystem with plenty of kinks still to iron out. There has been positive moves towards standardising the charging plugs, but the various different charging companies still have deals with different EV manufacturers- what does one do if they drive (purely for the sake of argument) a car made by Brand A who have an agreement with Charging provider X to allow cut-price charging, but the chargers in their street are operated by Charging provider Y which offers the reduced rate to B drivers only?

Petrol companies certainly aren't angels, but the way fuel is supplied is well established and the usage habits are embedded after decades. No garages offer fuel at a discounted rate only to drivers of certain vehicles because of deals with manufacturers. The price you pay is clearly displayed at all filling stations, and you don't have to do any complex mathematics to work out how far you'll get on a full tank.
You also don't have to worry about filling up too quickly or too much, or have your fuel tank reduce capacity over the life of the vehicle.

I'm sure there's lots of great things about EVs, the quick acceleration, and lack of noise or tailpipe emissions are undoubtedly big plusses- but they're being sold to us with all the emphasis on the good, and minimisation of the bad.

 

[Ediswan]

Petrol companies certainly aren't angels, but the way fuel is supplied is well established and the usage habits are embedded after decades. No garages offer fuel at a discounted rate only to drivers of certain vehicles because of deals with manufacturers. The price you pay is clearly displayed at all filling stations ...

Do (company) fuel cards offer a discount ?

 

[paul1609]

Do (company) fuel cards offer a discount ?

As ex-military I get a fee free Esso Card I get 4 p a litre discount off diesel pump price at every UK ESSO station.

 

[SWT_USER]

In the case of @SWT_USER 's VW I suppose the garage might be waiting for a suitable cell to turn up. But it sounds like the basic diagnosis has not happened yet and in any case the car is so new the garage is probably procrastinating over the cost of writing off the battery (and car maybe) !. At least the removed battery cells would then become part of the spares pool.

---

In terms of battery spares availability I can see a natural balance evolving where enough older EVs are written off until there are enough spare second-hand cells in the market/system. The age and value at which cars with faulty batteries are written off will settle at a level dependent on the availability and cost of brand new battery packs vs demand down stream for second hand packs.

It may of course not be the cells but the battery controller, and they are just struggling to get stock.

Still no update from the dealership (who have had it since 22nd July). Could be that they are procrastinating over what to do - or that they genuinely just don't have enough people suitably qualified to diagnose and fix the problem. I've had a hire car since then so it must be costing them a decent amount of money!

This is a company car via a salary sacrifice scheme so I'll be handing it back in two years anyway, I will go for an EV again next time but it's certainly put me off buying this one when the time comes.

 

[cactustwirly]

As ex-military I get a fee free Esso Card I get 4 p a litre discount off diesel pump price at every UK ESSO station.

That's very interesting, sums up why EVs aren't the solution.

Even at £1.99 a litre they were still expensive, and a 440i isn't what you'd call efficient.

I'm more surprised at the range, that BMW doing barely 200 miles before needing to charge, despite a large battery

 

[Noddy]

That's very interesting, sums up why EVs aren't the solution.

Even at £1.99 a litre they were still expensive, and a 440i isn't what you'd call efficient.

I'm more surprised at the range, that BMW doing barely 200 miles before needing to charge, despite a large battery

Tbf it was a 230 mile route and it still had 11 miles on the GOM, but you called it, a BMW 4 series is not an efficient car in any guise.

I hate to keep banging on about it but if you are one of the over 60% of folk who have access to private parking it would be far cheaper. Even in the inefficient BMW it would have cost me £5.86, in the 208 £4.16. So for the majority of people EVs are the solution. But it’s obvious that we need to make public charging fairer for those without access to a private space. Quentin Wilson (of Top Gear fame) is running a campaign called FairCharge to reduce VAT on public charging to 5% so it’s the same as home charging. I’ve signed the petition that’s part of the campaign, and I think it’s worth everyone doing it if they have an interest in making costs fairer.

 

[cactustwirly]

Tbf it was a 230 mile route and it still had 11 miles on the GOM, but you called it, a BMW 4 series is not an efficient car in any guise.

I hate to keep banging on about it but if you are one of the over 60% of folk who have access to private parking it would be far cheaper. Even in the inefficient BMW it would have cost me £5.86, in the 208 £4.16. So for the majority of people EVs are the solution. But it’s obvious that we need to make public charging fairer for those without access to a private space. Quentin Wilson (of Top Gear fame) is running a campaign called FairCharge to reduce VAT on public charging to 5% so it’s the same as home charging. I’ve signed the petition that’s part of the campaign, and I think it’s worth everyone doing it if they have an interest in making costs fairer.

I have private parking but unable to charge.
The landlord won't allow one to be fitted as it requires modifications to the electricity supply.

But you'd get to Leeds and then need to charge, which is expensive as what was demonstrated.

The VAT isn't the issue, fuel has 40% tax on it and it's still cheaper!

 

[E27007]

I am roughly doing 11,000 miles a year 1,200 of those I am paying slightly less that the equivalent of petrol prices for my charging, the rest are either as 9p per KWH, a quarter of petrol price or actually free. Yes there is a public charge where I volunteer that is currently free. Once a month I do 175 mile trip, return the return being where I have paid 35p KWH slightly less than the equivalent I paid for my old ICE car. The trip down being either free or at most 1/4 of petrol costs. Not sure how the deprecation will work out but 12 months into EV ownership I have no regrets.

Depreciation of a vehicle is the wallet-breaker in car ownership, If vehicle depreciation is measured in £ per mile and fuel cost in pence per mile,

 

[Noddy]

I have private parking but unable to charge.
The landlord won't allow one to be fitted as it requires modifications to the electricity supply.

But you'd get to Leeds and then need to charge, which is expensive as what was demonstrated.

The VAT isn't the issue, fuel has 40% tax on it and it's still cheaper!

Market demand (or government intervention if the new government decides to follow the Norway model) will mean the landlord will have to sort it out sooner or later. EVs are the future and places that have parking but no supply will simply not be in demand in most areas. Virtually all new flats in suburban areas have chargers fitted now.

There are grants available for both landlords and tenants as well which would reduce costs slightly.

Electric vehicle chargepoint and infrastructure grants for landlords

Apply for an electric vehicle chargepoint grant or an electric vehicle infrastructure grant if you rent out, lease or manage a residential or commercial property in the UK.

www.gov.uk

Electric vehicle chargepoint grant for renters or flat owners

Guidance on how to apply for an electric vehicle chargepoint grant if you rent any residential property or own a flat.

www.gov.uk

 

[AM9]

Market demand (or government intervention if the new government decides to follow the Norway model) will mean the landlord will have to sort it out sooner or later. EVs are the future and places that have parking but no supply will simply not be in demand in most areas. Virtually all new flats in suburban areas have chargers fitted now.

There are grants available for both landlords and tenants as well which would reduce costs slightly.

Electric vehicle chargepoint and infrastructure grants for landlords

Apply for an electric vehicle chargepoint grant or an electric vehicle infrastructure grant if you rent out, lease or manage a residential or commercial property in the UK.

www.gov.uk

Electric vehicle chargepoint grant for renters or flat owners

Guidance on how to apply for an electric vehicle chargepoint grant if you rent any residential property or own a flat.

www.gov.uk

Given this government's intention to give the private rental world a shake-up, I wouldn't be surprised if the provision of charging by the landlord, (or permission for the tenant to undertake it), becomes the norm unless there are technical reasons for not doing so. As you say, those who refuse premission will rapidly find that their property becomes more difficult to let without such a basic facility. Meanwhile just add the myth that charging at so many places won't everhave the capabiliry to the list of excuses brought up by anti EV individuals.

 

[jon0844]

Tbf it was a 230 mile route and it still had 11 miles on the GOM, but you called it, a BMW 4 series is not an efficient car in any guise.

I hate to keep banging on about it but if you are one of the over 60% of folk who have access to private parking it would be far cheaper. Even in the inefficient BMW it would have cost me £5.86, in the 208 £4.16. So for the majority of people EVs are the solution. But it’s obvious that we need to make public charging fairer for those without access to a private space. Quentin Wilson (of Top Gear fame) is running a campaign called FairCharge to reduce VAT on public charging to 5% so it’s the same as home charging. I’ve signed the petition that’s part of the campaign, and I think it’s worth everyone doing it if they have an interest in making costs fairer.

What we need is some competition in the public charging space, as it appears likely that firms are colluding with each other to keep prices high. Gridserve is giving 20% off if you sign up to their app, and Tesla do time based charging discounts, but there's surely more scope to pitch one charging company against another - but naturally they don't want that to happen and any discounts seem to be a small offering to look like they're looking out for customers.

But, 5% VAT would help.. assuming they didn't just pocket the savings.

Given this government's intention to give the private rental world a shake-up, I wouldn't be surprised if the provision of charging by the landlord, (or permission for the tenant to undertake it), becomes the norm unless there are technical reasons for not doing so. As you say, those who refuse premission will rapidly find that their property becomes more difficult to let without such a basic facility. Meanwhile just add the myth that charging at so many places won't everhave the capabiliry to the list of excuses brought up by anti EV individuals.

Landlords should surely realise that providing certain things makes it easier to rent out a property, and attract more customers. Whether that's providing EV charging, allowing the installation of fibre or whatever.

But I guess some landlords are just greedy and figure they'll find someone to rent regardless.

 

[AM9]

Landlords should surely realise that providing certain things makes it easier to rent out a property, and attract more customers. Whether that's providing EV charging, allowing the installation of fibre or whatever.

But I guess some landlords are just greedy and figure they'll find someone to rent regardless.

They are the ones that are likely to trigger legislation.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Given this government's intention to give the private rental world a shake-up, I wouldn't be surprised if the provision of charging by the landlord, (or permission for the tenant to undertake it), becomes the norm unless there are technical reasons for not doing so. As you say, those who refuse premission will rapidly find that their property becomes more difficult to let without such a basic facility. Meanwhile just add the myth that charging at so many places won't everhave the capabiliry to the list of excuses brought up by anti EV individuals.

Given the shortage of places to live I reckon it will be quite some time before landlords have to worry about provision of EV charging affecting the attractiveness of what they are offering. It would depend how easy it is to install but I can imagine cheaper rental properties will be less likely to attract car owners anyway.

 

[AM9]

Given the shortage of places to live I reckon it will be quite some time before landlords have to worry about provision of EV charging affecting the attractiveness of what they are offering. It would depend how easy it is to install but I can imagine cheaper rental properties will be less likely to attract car owners anyway.

Not so around London. There are plenty of young professionals living in apartments where the high cost of rent is just another consequence of London living.

 

[stuu]

Not so around London. There are plenty of young professionals living in apartments where the high cost of rent is just another consequence of London living.

How many of them own cars? When I lived in south London barely anyone I knew had a car, maybe 1 in 10, and this was youngish people on decent incomes

 

[E27007]

Given the shortage of places to live I reckon it will be quite some time before landlords have to worry about provision of EV charging affecting the attractiveness of what they are offering. It would depend how easy it is to install but I can imagine cheaper rental properties will be less likely to attract car owners anyway.

Something like 15 renters chasing every apartment or flat property in the sub £1600 a month rent, and £1600 is typically half their joint pay after taxation, of a working couple, these figures from a friend with several rental properties in East London. He is not intending to install EV charging facilities at his properties, why bother , renters are clamouring to get a roof over their heads.
Recently retired . moved away from London after 40 years , new house distant by 170 miles, for my final 10 years in London rarely drove my car, public transport tube and buses, my daily transport, congestion had made car driving not a joy but a misery, found London public transport to be comprehensive, someone else handling the frustration of slow-moving traffic, when finishing work in the early hours in far-flung places, with a TfL journey planner on my phone , the planner would usually manage take me home using night buses and a bit of walking

 

[Sun Chariot]

How many of them own cars? When I lived in south London barely anyone I knew had a car, maybe 1 in 10, and this was youngish people on decent incomes

When I lived in Fulham and then London Docklands, local car ownership was high. Not just owners / renters of apartments but also of terraced town houses (whether as a single owner, or split into multiple apartments).
We had on street parking; however, Hammersmith & Fulham Borough's permit didn't guarantee a space outside our house, merely "on a designated permit parking road within all H&F".
In Docklands, car parking was either underneath apartment blocks (both for new-builds and for warehouse conversions), or located in a completely separate area to residences - and no way to run charging cables to flats.

On that premise, I don't see how folk living in such properties, could realistically expect to home-charge an EV.

 

[apk55]

Renters could still possibly charge from a normal mains socket - 2KW x 10 hours for a car that does 3 miles per KWH = 60miles. More than enough for most commutes.

 

[Sun Chariot]

Renters could still possibly charge from a normal mains socket - 2KW x 10 hours for a car that does 3 miles per KWH = 60miles. More than enough for most commutes.

Only if they can physically park their vehicle within the length of the extension lead.
My quoted examples, the "vehicle-to-property" distances can far exceed that.

 

[trebor79]

When I lived in Fulham and then Dockkands Royal Docks, car ownership was high. Not just owners / renters of apartments but also of terraced town houses (whether as single owner, or split into multiple apartments).
We had on street parking; however, Hammersmith & Fulham Borough's permit didn't guarantee a space outside our house, merely "within the designated permit parking on such roads".

In Docklands, the car parks were underneath the apartment blocks (both for new builds and for warehouse conversions) and no way to run charging cables to flats.

So, on that premise, I don't see how those living in such properties, coukd realistically expect to home-charge an EV.

For the flats scenario I believe there are now solutions which provide a charge point for every space, activated by RFID card that links to the owners electricity bill.

Ultimately, properties where it is not possible to install a dedicated charge point will be less desirable and valuable than those with. So the properties without should be cheaper, which will offset some of the cost associated with only being able to use public charge points.

 

[Noddy]

For the flats scenario I believe there are now solutions which provide a charge point for every space, activated by RFID card that links to the owners electricity bill.

Ultimately, properties where it is not possible to install a dedicated charge point will be less desirable and valuable than those with. So the properties without should be cheaper, which will offset some of the cost associated with only being able to use public charge points.

As I mentioned earlier EV points going in at flats is now standard at all new builds (in England) if a space is provided. Here a couple of examples:



The stone building is four flats. Also note the brick terraced houses beyond also have their own chargers.




This brick building is nine flats (there are three more flats and car parking spaces on the other side), each with its own space and charger.

-

Obviously central London (and maybe a handful of other cities) are different as the higher density means car ownership is lower and public transport is much better. You can build houses and flats without spaces but the reason they aren’t in most areas is that there is less demand and hence lower prices. As soon as you move to the suburbs or towns, usually somewhere to park a car is a requirement.

 

[jon0844]

Perhaps councils will be able to provide residents with cheaper on street charging, via the use of smart cards and a limited allocation (so as to stop abuse by people sharing the cheaper rates with friends, or to limit the power for the heaviest users).

Clearly on street systems exist but I'm not sure if they're cheap or run commercially for profit.

I'm basically talking about charging a fee comparable to using your own supply and with partnerships with energy providers maybe the cost could be added to your home bill. Overnight charging could be cheaper still and you just set your vehicle to charge at those times.

This sort of thing will have to happen for those who can't park on a private space or even a private communal parking area.

But as it needs subsidies to build out, it will need Government support. But imagine being able to charge elsewhere and pay your normal electricity rate as if you were at home. No reason this can't be possible. This would be for residents so motorway services and the like could still charge what they like, although I do hope they'll start to compete with each other one day.

 

[Ken H]

Perhaps councils will be able to provide residents with cheaper on street charging, via the use of smart cards and a limited allocation (so as to stop abuse by people sharing the cheaper rates with friends, or to limit the power for the heaviest users).

Clearly on street systems exist but I'm not sure if they're cheap or run commercially for profit.

I'm basically talking about charging a fee comparable to using your own supply and with partnerships with energy providers maybe the cost could be added to your home bill. Overnight charging could be cheaper still and you just set your vehicle to charge at those times.

This sort of thing will have to happen for those who can't park on a private space or even a private communal parking area.

But as it needs subsidies to build out, it will need Government support. But imagine being able to charge elsewhere and pay your normal electricity rate as if you were at home. No reason this can't be possible. This would be for residents so motorway services and the like could still charge what they like, although I do hope they'll start to compete with each other one day.

So who pays for all this new infrastructure. People with no car.

I was a landlord till recently. Small terrace house on a narrow road in conservation area and national park. Street lighting attached to buildings, not on separate poles. Not every landlord is letting flats in big buildings with car parks. So how could I provide charging for tenants?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Landlords should surely realise that providing certain things makes it easier to rent out a property, and attract more customers. Whether that's providing EV charging, allowing the installation of fibre or whatever.

But I guess some landlords are just greedy and figure they'll find someone to rent regardless.

Tell me you don't deal much with the rental market without telling me you don't deal much with the rental market. Getting anything done outside of emergency repairs is like getting blood out of a stone... especially if it involves the company that manages the building as opposed to the letting agency of the individual flats- which installing charging points would.

Whilst at the higher end of the market things like EV charging might be something worth providing, at the bottom end it would be seen (and IS seen) as an unnecessary luxury. You may argue that those living in those circumstances are less likely to have a car at all, but that is not the case especially outside of the big cities. Walk round a Council estate and there are plenty of cars parked up. Those on lower incomes often work in sectors where they can't rely on public transport due to inconsistent shift patterns. People in that position may have to do the "bangernomics" thing of buying a car for c.£1k and running it til it dies. Maybe not the best way long-term, but the only viable option for some. Those people aren't going to be looking at EVs for another decade or so though.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Something like 15 renters chasing every apartment or flat property in the sub £1600 a month rent, and £1600 is typically half their joint pay after taxation, of a working couple, these figures from a friend with several rental properties in East London. He is not intending to install EV charging facilities at his properties, why bother , renters are clamouring to get a roof over their heads.
Recently retired . moved away from London after 40 years , new house distant by 170 miles, for my final 10 years in London rarely drove my car, public transport tube and buses, my daily transport, congestion had made car driving not a joy but a misery, found London public transport to be comprehensive, someone else handling the frustration of slow-moving traffic, when finishing work in the early hours in far-flung places, with a TfL journey planner on my phone , the planner would usually manage take me home using night buses and a bit of walking

This more or less describes me. I have not quite given up living in Croydon yet but I prize being able to walk over paying for a gym I might use !.

Renters could still possibly charge from a normal mains socket - 2KW x 10 hours for a car that does 3 miles per KWH = 60miles. More than enough for most commutes.

But running a cable across the pavement (public path) ?.

Tell me you don't deal much with the rental market without telling me you don't deal much with the rental market. Getting anything done outside of emergency repairs is like getting blood out of a stone... especially if it involves the company that manages the building as opposed to the letting agency of the individual flats- which installing charging points would.

Whilst at the higher end of the market things like EV charging might be something worth providing, at the bottom end it would be seen (and IS seen) as an unnecessary luxury. You may argue that those living in those circumstances are less likely to have a car at all, but that is not the case especially outside of the big cities. Walk round a Council estate and there are plenty of cars parked up. Those on lower incomes often work in sectors where they can't rely on public transport due to inconsistent shift patterns. People in that position may have to do the "bangernomics" thing of buying a car for c.£1k and running it til it dies. Maybe not the best way long-term, but the only viable option for some. Those people aren't going to be looking at EVs for another decade or so though.

In terms of your "Bangernomics" this is roughly where I sit. For me an EV is a long way off option. A lot of people round me are in the same position as this. A lot of us have just had to endure the cost of ULEZ compliance and so there is no money/desire for another purchase.

I could afford more than many around me but I really do not use a car enough to justify buying something so new and at such eye wateringly high depreciation rates.

 

[Noddy]

But running a cable across the pavement (public path) ?.

Is perfectly legal as long as you do it safely and don’t contravene the Highway Code (rule 239).

Here is an example (there are many others) of relatively cheap and flexible cable covers

Edion UK - Pavement Cable Protector for EV Charging Cable - Made in UK

Low height, highly visible and easy to use outdoor cable protector designed for EV charging cables. The Edion Protect EV Cable Cover attaches to your EV cable for EV cable safety & security when charging an electric vehicle across a pavement or path. Compact to store. Lengths from 1.5m to 10m...

www.edion.co.uk

 

[Ediswan]

Is perfectly legal as long as you do it safely and don’t contravene the Highway Code (rule 239).

Local authorities have the enforcement powers and their opinions differ.

Hampshire say can be OK:
https://www.hants.gov.uk/transport/electric-vehicles/ev-charging-guidance

A cable should only be placed over the footway when the vehicle is charging and should always be removed when not in use.
It is the resident's responsibility to ensure that the cable does not cause a danger or a nuisance to the public.

Oxfordshire say never OK:
https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/resi...g/energy-and-climate-change/electric-vehicles

You cannot place any electric vehicle charging cable across the pedestrian footway, even if it is covered by a cable cover or mat.

This is because a power cable running across the footway, even if covered, is a potential hazard. It can also make access more difficult for disabled and vulnerable groups. If an injury occurs, this might result in a liability claim for the homeowner or occupier and the authority.

 

[Noddy]

Local authorities have the enforcement powers and their opinions differ.

Hampshire say can be OK:
https://www.hants.gov.uk/transport/electric-vehicles/ev-charging-guidance


Oxfordshire say never OK:
https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/resi...g/energy-and-climate-change/electric-vehicles

There’s nothing illegal about safely running an electric cable across the pavement. Councils have the enforcement powers to remove anything they feel is unsafe or dangerous from the public highway, but if you are doing it safely and sensibly using one of the systems that are available it would be very difficult for them to show that it was dangerous/unsafe. If councils such as Oxfordshire were to go down the route of enforcement sooner or later it will end up in court with the council losing. I would happily contribute financially to that case so the legal precedent could be set. The 1980 Highways Act says the following:

Penalty for placing rope, etc. across highway.​

A person who for any purpose places any rope, wire or other apparatus across a highway in such a manner as to be likely to cause danger to persons using the highway is, unless he proves that he had taken all necessary means to give adequate warning of the danger, guilty of an offence and liable to a fine not exceeding…

Highways Act 1980

An Act to consolidate the Highways Acts 1959 to 1971 and related enactments, with amendments to give effect to recommendations of the Law Commission.

www.legislation.gov.uk

 

[jon0844]

So who pays for all this new infrastructure. People with no car.

I was a landlord till recently. Small terrace house on a narrow road in conservation area and national park. Street lighting attached to buildings, not on separate poles. Not every landlord is letting flats in big buildings with car parks. So how could I provide charging for tenants?

You wouldn't need to do anything if there was on street charging. People want their own charger to save money but if they can't and the Government wants to reduce reliance on fossil fuels it makes sense to fund solutions like this.

Who pays? Society in general. If you don't own a car, you presumably breathe the same air as everyone else.

There’s nothing illegal about safely running an electric cable across the pavement. Councils have the enforcement powers to remove anything they feel is unsafe or dangerous from the public highway, but if you are doing it safely and sensibly using one of the systems that are available it would be very difficult for them to show that it was dangerous/unsafe. If councils such as Oxfordshire were to go down the route of enforcement sooner or later it will end up in court with the council losing. I would happily contribute financially to that case so the legal precedent could be set. The 1980 Highways Act says the following:

Highways Act 1980

An Act to consolidate the Highways Acts 1959 to 1971 and related enactments, with amendments to give effect to recommendations of the Law Commission.

www.legislation.gov.uk

I wouldn't just run a cable over a footway as someone visually impaired could trip, or just someone not paying full attention. I'm sure if someone had an injury they'd make a civil claim which is another good reason not to do it.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Local authorities have the enforcement powers and their opinions differ.

Hampshire say can be OK:
https://www.hants.gov.uk/transport/electric-vehicles/ev-charging-guidance


Oxfordshire say never OK:
https://www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/resi...g/energy-and-climate-change/electric-vehicles

Thanks. Although the advice varies between the two councils I would not risk liability even as inferred by the more lenient Hampshire County Council. I think a trend could be more and more caution as time goes by - I certainly would not buy an EV on the assumption that the advice would not get stricter. Also I assume a Town Council s rules could override the County Council's rulse ?.