Do you want Virgin to keep the West Coast franchise?

[All Line Rover]

Don't bank on them winning it, the DfT resent them.

I'm sure some "discussions" will be going on with management at Virgin and the DfT.

Who do you want running the WCML franchise - Arriva or Virgin? I know which one I'd pick! (Thank goodness Arriva have not pre-qualified anyway!) Virgin should still have kept the XC franchise - the DfT shot themselves in the foot with that one. (I wonder whether there is any "customer satisfaction" data for the XC franchise over the last few years?)

 

[WestCoast]

I'm sure some "discussions" will be going on with management at Virgin and the DfT.

It's a sealed bid, and Arriva didn't pre-qualify!

Let's not forget Crewe either! I quite like the Liverpool Lime Street First Class lounge - I went for the first time last week. It is "manned" (for most of the time), but only by a cleaner (I think) who isn't bothered about which train you take or how long you stay. (Although she must have wondered what I was doing after I'd been in there for 3 hours!

There wasn't even a cleaner when I was in it. You spent 3 hours in a lounge, it's not exactly huge! hock:

 

[All Line Rover]

It's a sealed bid, and Arriva didn't pre-qualify!

I know that - I'm just comparing it to the XC franchise!

If Arriva is sooo good that it deserved the XC franchise, why haven't they pre-qualified for the ICWC franchise? I wonder... It indicates to me that Virgin are better, and that Arriva are rubbish!

Also, if Virgin's "relationship" with the DfT is sooo bad, why have they pre-qualified? NXEA didn't for their franchise.

 

[ainsworth74]

If Arriva is sooo good that it deserved the XC franchise, why haven't they pre-qualified for the ICWC franchise?

Money my friend it all comes down to money. Virgins XC bid is considered to have been the better overall bid but the bid made by Arriva was for more money than Virgin were offering so the DfT awarded the franchise to Arriva. Presumably this time they either a) didn't offer enough money compared with the other operators or b) their bid was pants (along with their bad reputation on the present XC franchise).

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I know that - I'm just comparing it to the XC franchise!

If Arriva is sooo good that it deserved the XC franchise, why haven't they pre-qualified for the ICWC franchise? I wonder... It indicates to me that Virgin are better, and that Arriva are rubbish!

Also, if Virgin's "relationship" with the DfT is sooo bad, why have they pre-qualified? NXEA didn't for their franchise.

I think the fact that the DfT are even considering state ownership for eight months says more than the above.

 

[All Line Rover]

I think the fact that the DfT are even considering state ownership for eight months says more than the above.

Hasn't it now been confirmed that Virgin will keep the franchise until December 2012?

The DfT have allowed state ownership for the ECML after all!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Hasn't it now been confirmed that Virgin will keep the franchise until December 2012?

The DfT have allowed state ownership for the ECML after all!

Yes, but that they even mentioned in public the possibility tells you that it wasn't a foregone conclusion. The situations on the EC / WC are totally different, so not worth comparison.

 

[All Line Rover]

Yes, but that they even mentioned in public the possibility tells you that it wasn't a foregone conclusion. The situations on the EC / WC are totally different, so not worth comparison.

It is a slightly exceptional situation, it has to be said - with the Olympics and all. No other TOC has ever been put in such a situation.

 

[All Line Rover]

I wonder if the operator who replaces Virgin will change that rule?

I can't imagine any operator doing that. Virgin are the ones who pay for the lounge - XC and TPE contribute nothing - so why should Virgin accept XC and TPE Advance tickets?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I can't imagine any operator doing that. Virgin are the ones who pay for the lounge - XC and TPE contribute nothing - so why should Virgin accept XC and TPE Advance tickets?

They closed the lounge at GLC when they were asked to open it up to others!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hopefully there will be no change of operator.

Oh I do hope there is!

 

[tbtc]

Reason for wanting Virgin to retain the franchise:

If they lose it then we lose Virgin as a rail brand. With Arriva/ Chiltern both being taken over by DB, and National Express seemingly on the way out too, this means a much smaller pool of potential bidders for any future franchises. We need plurality to both keep bidding competitive and keep companies coming up with innovative ideas...

Reason for wanting Virgin to lose the franchise:

They are a perfect example of the inflexible TOC who will only change/improve things if they are compensated. I can see why the DFT get frustrated by this approach...

Reasons that make no difference to me or to the DFT:

Whether child fares are offered on advanced tickets...

 

[ainsworth74]

Reasons that make no difference to me or to the DFT:

Whether child fares are offered on advanced tickets...

Not even that! It's whether or not they offer child fares on special offer tickets to put it mildly there are much bigger issues to worry about when it comes to a franchise than if they offer further discounts on their special offers.

 

[lemonic]

If Virgin lose the franchise:
Will railcard holders still be able to use West Coast trains at any time on Off Peak tickets?
Will SVH tickets and 'Saturday Day Travelcards' still exist?

 

[All Line Rover]

If Virgin lose the franchise:
Will railcard holders still be able to use West Coast trains at any time on Off Peak tickets?
Will SVH tickets and 'Saturday Day Travelcards' still exist?

Completely honest answer: NO IDEA (NO ONE has any idea)

Even if Virgin keep the franchise some of these "bonus features" might not be kept, although I hope they will be kept.

 

[lemonic]

Completely honest answer: NO IDEA (NO ONE has any idea)

Even if Virgin keep the franchise some of these "bonus features" might not be kept, although I hope they will be kept.

I know that no-one knows, they were only meant to give food for thought. I also hope that these stay as they are currently exclusive to Virgin.

 

[All Line Rover]

I know that no-one knows, they were only meant to give food for thought. I also hope that these stay as they are currently exclusive to Virgin.

Good old Virgin!

 

[tbtc]

Not even that! It's whether or not they offer child fares on special offer tickets to put it mildly there are much bigger issues to worry about when it comes to a franchise than if they offer further discounts on their special offers.

This is critical!

I hope that the only two things the next franchise is awarded on are this one and the thorny problem of whether the crisps are posh enough

 

[All Line Rover]

There is the saying: "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

Virgin might have had problems in the early years, but everything seems to be running smoothly now. Is anything still "broke" with the Virgin franchise (apart from their relationship with the DfT)?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

GNER wasn't broken. Central Trains were mostly fine. Silverlink did good on their WCML services. Are any of them still around?

 

[Aictos]

While I am infamous for being bias towards First, I would easily back the bidder who is successful and who goes on to introduce a programme of works similar to the Evergreen works being done by Chiltern Trains and Network Rail.

Yes, there has been much investment since Virgin first took over the Inter City West Coast franchise however some of the work that the successful bidder could get on with is electrifying parts of their route which currently see diesels ie 220s/221s and introduce more 390s and/or introduce a a extra carriage to the 221s so it can run off the overheads or use the diesel engines.

If more 390s are ordered then the 11 cars services should be on London to Glasgow, London to Liverpool/Manchester with the 9 car services being London to Wolverhampton via Birmingham, London to Birmingham and Birmingham to Scotland.

If any 221s are to be kept then they are best used on the Holyhead/Wrexham services with the rest if any spare going to Cross Country.

This is simply because there are some routes which are crying out for longer trains and some which are doing okay with the existing trains.

 

[All Line Rover]

GNER wasn't broken. Central Trains were mostly fine. Silverlink did good on their WCML services. Are any of them still around?

Sea Containers were certainly "broke", though!

It's a pity that GNER still aren't around, to be honest (from what I've heard).

 

[ainsworth74]

This is critical!

Indeed, nothing more critical than special offer child fares I would have said.

I hope that the only two things the next franchise is awarded on are this one and the thorny problem of whether the crisps are posh enough

Meh gimme a pack of Seabrooks ready salted and I'm normally pretty happy

 

[WestCoast]

GNER wasn't broken. Central Trains were mostly fine. Silverlink did good on their WCML services. Are any of them still around?

Well, financially, GNER was broken. Silverlink ran half the franchise poorly. Central were OK.

Looking at all the mistakes and strange decisions the DfT have made, combined with their lack of interest over some TOCs (*ahem" Northern *ahem*), I can't find any sympathy for them regarding Virgin!

 

[All Line Rover]

Well, financially, GNER was broken. Silverlink ran half the franchise poorly. Central were OK.

Looking at all the mistakes and strange decisions the DfT have made, combined with their lack of interest over some TOCs (*ahem" Northern *ahem*), I can't find any sympathy for them regarding Virgin!

More like their lack of interest about people in the North of England! :roll:

 

[Failed Unit]

There is the saying: "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

Virgin might have had problems in the early years, but everything seems to be running smoothly now. Is anything still "broke" with the Virgin franchise (apart from their relationship with the DfT)?

That is not the view they take with stations, many which have not had 1p spent on them. Which is why 7 / 10 worse stations in the uk were managed by virgin.

Ct was a terrible franchise in terms of management, we were well rid of the management, but shame the franchise itself never survived.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Why would you want to associate your region with all of the council estates that occupy the North?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That is not the view they take with stations, many which have not had 1p spent on them. Which is why 7 / 10 worse stations in the uk were managed by virgin.

Indeed mate, if my memory serves me correctly Crewe, Warrington BQ, Wigan NW, Stockport, Preston, Lancaster and Carlisle? Well, Crewe and Stockport have new signs, that's about it. The subway project at Preston and roof / lounge at Crewe were all external projects, I suppose they gave Bank Quay a new booking office and Wigan a redeveloped one... not much in 13 years.

 

[All Line Rover]

That is not the view they take with stations, many which have not had 1p spent on them. Which is why 7 / 10 worse stations in the uk were managed by virgin.

That is a fair point - many of their stations are very tatty. The Standard Class waiting room at Crewe is appallingly bad (seat covers falling off, etc.). It's quite amazing consider the money they have spent on First Class lounges. Having said that, Crewe is improving with the new roof and all, but where has all that money gone for the new escalators, lifts and toilets? I've seen nothing happening lately!

If Virgin did win the franchise, I agree that the DfT should force them to make station improvements (aside from adding First Class lounges to even more stations! ).

Here's the media article: http://mediaroom.virgintrains.co.uk/2009/11/let-us-improve-our-stations-says-sir.html. Look near the bottom - the bit entitled "Future improvements we would like to see." I've seen none of that apart from the new roof. If Virgin won the franchise, they should be forced to make those improvements out of their own pockets.

 

[WestCoast]

That is not the view they take with stations, many which have not had 1p spent on them. Which is why 7 / 10 worse stations in the uk were managed by virgin.

They didn't half get some terrible stations though. There is a bit of a split - North of Preston the stations are lovely, south of Preston, well, not great springs to mind!

They have a fairly poor record with station enhancements, however, I have to recognise that they inherited some absolute holes!

Most TOCs seem reluctant to pay for station improvements and that should be encouraged when specifications are made.

Reason for wanting Virgin to retain the franchise:

If they lose it then we lose Virgin as a rail brand. With Arriva/ Chiltern both being taken over by DB, and National Express seemingly on the way out too, this means a much smaller pool of potential bidders for any future franchises. We need plurality to both keep bidding competitive and keep companies coming up with innovative ideas...

That is a very good point, something which I have argued before. Basically, I can envisage First taking over most of the network! Some replies to that have been, "First are the best e.t.c", well that may sometimes be true, but that doesn't mean they should become British Rail and monopolise the bidding!

It's important to have a variety of bidders, rather than just a few giants. NX are clearly on the way out, so I can see the four key players being First, Arriva, Stagecoach and possibly Govia. That is not a good situation.

If West Coast doesn't go to Virgin, then it should go to someone like Serco/Abellio or SNCF, to keep fresh ideas flowing and a variety on the network.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

That is a fair point - many of their stations are very tatty. The Standard Class waiting room at Crewe is appallingly bad (seat covers falling off, etc.). It's quite amazing consider the money they have spent on First Class lounges. Having said that, Crewe is improving with the new roof and all, but where has all that money gone for the new escalators, lifts and toilets? I've seen nothing happening lately!

If Virgin did win the franchise, I agree that the DfT should force them to make station improvements (aside from adding First Class lounges to even more stations! ).

The roof had no input from Virgin, neither did the Cheshire [First Class] Lounge. Apart from the new signs (and trains calling), you would have no idea Virgin Trains even served Crewe!

 

[The Planner]

I wouldnt be suprised if it went DOR for the remaining bit of the franchise, Virgin tend to have a bit of an arrogance in that it is all a foregone conclusion. Even if they lose the franchise it will only be the senior management that change, the majority of the rest of staff will still be the same.