Dodgers

[jon0844]

Different times and different methods - 1970s buses had no CCTV and removal of yobs was more direct - today, CCTV makes evidence for subsequent prosecution more available, but balanced by a changed attitude towards 'discipline'.

Society was no doubt a lot different then. If there had been CCTV, the actions of staff would have been applauded and the offenders ridiculed. Social media wouldn't be full of trolls that would simply side with the offenders for a laugh, or others saying 'good on them' etc.

Now staff would be accused of abuse, and solicitors would be lining up around the block to take on a case for compensation for all the hardship caused by being thrown off.

While I am sure some people went too far in dishing out punishments years ago, boy have we gone too far in the other direction now.

 

[455driver]

In such a situation, what would happen if the scroats had been particularly gutsy and still refused? I doubt the driver would have assaulted them as that would likely put him up for assault charges and possibly jeapordise his job (which is a shame). Would the driver be allowed to physically grab hold of someone, carry them to the door and physically throw them off if they had kept up their attitude?

There are always a couple of passengers that will help with that bit!

Been there, seen it!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have, on behalf of the driver, thrown troublemakers/fare dodgers off buses before (not physically, just by intimidation or blocking the aisle). The London trick (not as visible in these days of hybrids) was to stop the engine and get out the newspaper, and just wait until a passenger resolved the situation before continuing.

 

[DarloRich]

I have, on behalf of the driver, thrown troublemakers/fare dodgers off buses before (not physically, just by intimidation or blocking the aisle). The London trick (not as visible in these days of hybrids) was to stop the engine and get out the newspaper, and just wait until a passenger resolved the situation before continuing.

I have seen that happen on the Marston Vale line where someone jumped the barriers at Fenny Stratford to make the Bedford train. The driver indicated quite bluntly the train was going no where until he got off.

It took a good 20-25 minutes, some industrial language form other passengers and the information the BTP had arrived before he got off.

 

[455driver]

Yes, direct action can sometimes work, when it does it is very satisfying, when it doesn't, it can put you in hospital or a coffin in the worst case. It is probably more likely to work if you have a large frame with a voice and attitude to match. In my case I only weigh 10 stone and am naturally passive/nervous so I am not going to intimidate anyone into behaving themselves (much as I would like too sometimes).

My left leg weighs more than that!

Actually so does my right!

 

[DarloRich]

I witnessed a chav get on at Northallerton heading for Thirsk (often the guards don't have time to check tickets between these two stations so a lot of people chance it). Guard approaches him and asks for ticket. Does the pocket dance and then claims "I've just got out of prison, could you let me off for this one?"

Problem is, YOI Northallerton prison had already been closed for over two months at that point! I don't know what the procedure followed was exactly, but the guard issued a zero fare ticket, took loads of details and made him sign his notes (TIR, possibly?), asked for ID all within the space of six minutes. Then commented "You were the same one a few months ago weren't you? You don't learn!" Guard then turned to the rest of the carriage and announced "He didn't even ask before getting on! I mean I'd have probably said 'no' but it was a bit cheeky!" or words to similar effect.

Chavs? Northallerton? I wont have it!

 

[Tetchytyke]

In such a situation, what would happen if the scroats had been particularly gutsy and still refused? I doubt the driver would have assaulted them as that would likely put him up for assault charges and possibly jeapordise his job

In the 70s? He'd have been applauded down the pub afterwards, and if the police had got involved the kids'd have got a "clip round the ear" (read: a sound hiding) off the coppers too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Chavs? Northallerton? I wont have it!

Don't know about the North East, but in the North West you have "scallies", not "chavs".

I always thought there was a difference in attitude even if the effect was the same. Northern "scallies" would smash up the bus shelter for a laugh. Southern "chavs" would smash it up because of a deep-seated hatred for society. Or somesuch.

 

[Polarbear]

Two such incidences that I can recall;

The first was on a HST between Peterborough and Kings Cross in the days before mobile 'phones. Conductor does ticket check in coach A & one chap says his ticket is with his wife, who conveniently is sitting elsewhere on the train as they'd had a row. He's given the benefit of the doubt & conductor completes his check.

He comes back about 10 minutes later to inform the bloke with no that no one is coughing to having a ticket for him & could he please pay. They argued for a couple of minutes, after which time the conductor informed the bloke he'd have the BTP waiting at the Cross. He then goes to the top of the TGS, gets in touch with the driver & the brakes slam in so the driver can 'phone at a lineside signal. The guy then decided the game was up & paid.

The other one was on the ever delightful Southminster line when a "yoof" boarded at Southminster & gave the guard a mouthful of abuse when asked for his ticket. We arrived at one of the intermediate stations on the line (one of the more rural ones), but he only opened one door on the train & informed the ticketless bloke we weren't going any further unless he paid up. Cue another load of abuse & the bloke getting up & moving towards the guard who stood his ground. Just as the bloke got up to the guard & tried to take a swing at him, he dodged the guy, swung around behind him & shoved him out of the door, closed the door & gave the right away!

Brave, but impressive to watch.

 

[TheEdge]

Lets go for two.

A particularly intelligent couple of the Chelmsford massif get on my service into Liverpool Street. When I find them they claim they got on the wrong train and need to get back to Shenfield, I give them the benefit of the doubt, tell them to change at Stratford and they wait by the buffet where they got on, I carry on with tickets. As I start walking back the buffet staff kindly inform me they had been on the phone to their mates telling them where to meet in the Westfield centre in Stratford. With that a BTP welcome was arranged for them at Stratford!

Two blokes get on at Colchester heading to London. They want to go to Norwich but rushed and got on the wrong train. Flash me two tickets, clearly both used and invalid. Deciding that going toe to toe with two fairly big blokes that brash alone was not in my best interest I tell them to change at Chelmsford for a train back to Norwich. Both distinctive guys, doors released at Chemlsford, no sign of them. I head down, grabbing a member of platform staff on the way as an extra body...

"Going to Norwich, you need to get off"
"Nah mate, missed it now, we're going to London"
"Got tickets for London?"
"Yea, we already showed you"
"No you didn't, not valid. You need to get off here and buy a ticket"
"Nah, we're going to London, we've got tickets"

At this point I've been stood long enough to start causing a queue behind me so the Chelmsford staff member pipes up...

"If they won't get off you'll just have to get the police to the train at Stratford"

And with the P-word the two gents were off in flash. Can only presume they were carrying something they shouldn't have been or one or both of them was wanted.

 

[Deepgreen]

Yes, direct action can sometimes work, when it does it is very satisfying, when it doesn't, it can put you in hospital or a coffin in the worst case. It is probably more likely to work if you have a large frame with a voice and attitude to match. In my case I only weigh 10 stone and am naturally passive/nervous so I am not going to intimidate anyone into behaving themselves (much as I would like too sometimes).

You're right, of course. I'm 6'2" and 15 stone, and with 'attitude' when needed! Liberal use of terms such as "CCTV", "witnesses", "cameras", etc., also often have beneficial effects on travelling scrotage!

 

[al78]

My left leg weighs more than that!

Actually so does my right!

I have always been lightweight, find it extremely difficult to gain weight, always have. I was in hospital for seven weeks last year and I dropped to 8 stone 7 lbs whilst inside (likely due to muscle atrophy), and yes I was eating the food and found it reasonable. For a 6' man that is a pretty low bodyweight (thankfully I eventually re-gained it).

 

[miami]

Two such incidences that I can recall;

The first was on a HST between Peterborough and Kings Cross in the days before mobile 'phones. Conductor does ticket check in coach A & one chap says his ticket is with his wife, who conveniently is sitting elsewhere on the train as they'd had a row. He's given the benefit of the doubt & conductor completes his check.

He comes back about 10 minutes later to inform the bloke with no that no one is coughing to having a ticket for him & could he please pay. They argued for a couple of minutes, after which time the conductor informed the bloke he'd have the BTP waiting at the Cross. He then goes to the top of the TGS, gets in touch with the driver & the brakes slam in so the driver can 'phone at a lineside signal. The guy then decided the game was up & paid.

So the entire train was delayed, and the only punishment for the fare evader was to have to pay the fare.

The other one was on the ever delightful Southminster line when a "yoof" boarded at Southminster & gave the guard a mouthful of abuse when asked for his ticket. We arrived at one of the intermediate stations on the line (one of the more rural ones), but he only opened one door on the train & informed the ticketless bloke we weren't going any further unless he paid up. Cue another load of abuse & the bloke getting up & moving towards the guard who stood his ground. Just as the bloke got up to the guard & tried to take a swing at him, he dodged the guy, swung around behind him & shoved him out of the door, closed the door & gave the right away!

Brave, but impressive to watch.

Again someone gets off scot free, despite attempted assault let alone fare evasion.


The number of tales on this thread of people blatently evading fares and either

Getting away with it completely (7, 16b, 19, 35, 37, some of 40, 41, 49, 51, 64, 69b, 70b)
Just having to pay the fare they would have paid had they been honest anyway (1, 4, 8, 9, 14b, 16a, maybe 33, 69a)
Had a small punishment like an overshoot, or a penalty fare (14a, 30, 38, some of 40, 52 ,53)
It's' only post 22a/b, 34, 39, 46, 70a where they seem to be appropriately punished.

20 do no worse than honest (many better), 6 a little worse, 6 much worse.


In several of these cases law abiding members of the public suffered too -- the Evesham overshoot case for example in post 52 has Doctor Fegg and companion suffering these criminals for a longer time, I just hope all the genuine passengers to evesham (perhaps with tickets to Oxford but who were BOJing in evesham) got off ok without the announcements.

 

[grumblingalong]

So the entire train was delayed, and the only punishment for the fare evader was to have to pay the fare.



Again someone gets off scot free, despite attempted assault let alone fare evasion.


The number of tales on this thread of people blatently evading fares and either

Getting away with it completely (7, 16b, 19, 35, 37, some of 40, 41, 49, 51, 64, 69b, 70b)
Just having to pay the fare they would have paid had they been honest anyway (1, 4, 8, 9, 14b, 16a, maybe 33, 69a)
Had a small punishment like an overshoot, or a penalty fare (14a, 30, 38, some of 40, 52 ,53)
It's' only post 22a/b, 34, 39, 46, 70a where they seem to be appropriately punished.

20 do no worse than honest (many better), 6 a little worse, 6 much worse.


In several of these cases law abiding members of the public suffered too -- the Evesham overshoot case for example in post 52 has Doctor Fegg and companion suffering these criminals for a longer time, I just hope all the genuine passengers to evesham (perhaps with tickets to Oxford but who were BOJing in evesham) got off ok without the announcements.

Not quite understanding what point you're making here, staff should have left them to it or more rigorous enforcement needed?

 

[sheff1]

In the 70s? He'd have been applauded down the pub afterwards, and if the police had got involved the kids'd have got a "clip round the ear" (read: a sound hiding) off the coppers too.

Ah, stories from the 70s ... I have plenty, but best told down the pub with mates not on an internet forum.

One, though, with almost the same bus situation as above - the difference being that when the driver appeared he was carrying a long handled wheel chock. The wannabe dodger did not hang about long enough for us to find out whether the driver would use it - I rather think he would have done !

 

[misterredmist]

A few years back, I and 3 friends boarded that last train from Newcastle to Berwick-upon-Tweed on a Saturday evening ( probably only about 7 pm though ) and we had not bothered to buy any tickets. Anyway, there'd been a match on at St. James' so the service was quite full and we were stood in one of the vestibules.

Eventually, the guard was spotted making his way through one of the coaches, at which point, my friends scarpered up the train, and I said that I needed to go to the loo as I was bursting. I expected a wrap on the door from the guard and that I'd just cough up for a ticket, but none came, and when I came back out of the loo I could see that guard had gone past.

I walked down the coach the guard had come through and decided I'd buy me and my friends a few "tinnies" from the Buffet Car.... as I was ordering, the mobile rang, I picked up and was asked by one of my friends "where are you?"

so I told him and he said "Oh Sh*T", then laughed and the phone went dead...

Upon reaching me they were wetting themselves, as once the guard had gone past where they were, they'd gone to the toilet I'd been in and knocked and shouted "It's OK, you can come out now, the guard's away up the train"....no answer, so they continue banging, more aggressively.....after a couple of minutes, a frail old bloke comes out of the loo shaking and there's my friends , stunned and full of apologies, .........

 

[miami]

Not quite understanding what point you're making here, staff should have left them to it or more rigorous enforcement needed?

Anyone willing to commit fare evasion (which most of these stories seem to concern), rather than say getting on the wrong train, should be dealt with far more harshly than "made to buy a ticket", or "made to get off the train and get the next one"

There seems little incentive to buy a ticket, just say "F-Off" and look menacing, and hope Neil Williams isn't around.

 

[Antman]

I have, on behalf of the driver, thrown troublemakers/fare dodgers off buses before (not physically, just by intimidation or blocking the aisle). The London trick (not as visible in these days of hybrids) was to stop the engine and get out the newspaper, and just wait until a passenger resolved the situation before continuing.

These days you'll have the controller in your ear telling you in no uncertain terms to get that bus moving!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Anyone willing to commit fare evasion (which most of these stories seem to concern), rather than say getting on the wrong train, should be dealt with far more harshly than "made to buy a ticket", or "made to get off the train and get the next one"

There seems little incentive to buy a ticket, just say "F-Off" and look menacing, and hope Neil Williams isn't around.

Easier said than done though and how do you differentiate between somebody who has genuinely got on the wrong train and somebody taking liberties?

 

[455driver]

I have always been lightweight, find it extremely difficult to gain weight, always have. I was in hospital for seven weeks last year and I dropped to 8 stone 7 lbs whilst inside (likely due to muscle atrophy), and yes I was eating the food and found it reasonable. For a 6' man that is a pretty low bodyweight (thankfully I eventually re-gained it).

I have a friend with the same problem* he eats lots but his metabolic rate is so high he simply cant put any weight on.

*using the term very loosely.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Anyone willing to commit fare evasion (which most of these stories seem to concern), rather than say getting on the wrong train, should be dealt with far more harshly than "made to buy a ticket", or "made to get off the train and get the next one"

Come on then, lets have some workable, viable solutions then!

 

[Polarbear]

I agree that fare Dodgers should be dealt with appropriately & not just let off the hook. The big question is how to do this without putting front line staff at risk of assault & that is cost effective.

Unfortunately, the way the world is these days, no one wants to spend the money to provide the level of revenue protection that would be needed to get rid of the "scroat" element that's out there!

 

[74A]

Many years ago (probably 20) an old school guard was working a diverted Bristol to London train. Running non stop from Bath to Reading. Came across a fare dodger who got on at Bath and going to Reading. Fare dodger thinks they have got away with it. (Late at night and no mobile phones to call for assistance at Reading)

So guard calls up driver says he can hear a noise under the train and the train stops at Pewsey. Fare dodger invited to get off the train. As train pulls away fare dodger says what time next train. When train is going fast enough guard says 730 tomorrow morning !

 

[Dr_Paul]

Eventually he found his true identity, and... He was wanted on warrant by Metropolitan Police for assault and credit card fraud charges amongst other things! If only he had paid his £3.60 fare....

A pal of mine is a criminal lawyer, and this is exactly the kind of things he tells me about the pure stupidity of rather a lot of criminals.

 

[grumblingalong]

Some of these are brilliant, knew there'd be some good tales out there. Keep em coming!

 

[Llanigraham]

So the entire train was delayed, and the only punishment for the fare evader was to have to pay the fare.



Again someone gets off scot free, despite attempted assault let alone fare evasion.


The number of tales on this thread of people blatently evading fares and either

Getting away with it completely (7, 16b, 19, 35, 37, some of 40, 41, 49, 51, 64, 69b, 70b)
Just having to pay the fare they would have paid had they been honest anyway (1, 4, 8, 9, 14b, 16a, maybe 33, 69a)
Had a small punishment like an overshoot, or a penalty fare (14a, 30, 38, some of 40, 52 ,53)
It's' only post 22a/b, 34, 39, 46, 70a where they seem to be appropriately punished.

20 do no worse than honest (many better), 6 a little worse, 6 much worse.


In several of these cases law abiding members of the public suffered too -- the Evesham overshoot case for example in post 52 has Doctor Fegg and companion suffering these criminals for a longer time, I just hope all the genuine passengers to evesham (perhaps with tickets to Oxford but who were BOJing in evesham) got off ok without the announcements.

Instead of your criticising the staff, let's hear what your solutions would have been?

 

[bewildered]

Having gone through a period of time at work five years ago where I was travelling around the country I've witnessed a few incidents.

My personal favourite was the cheek of one chap. As mentioned travelling a lot I always ended up with a wallet full of used tickets. Mainly receipts or reservations that ibviously had t been kept by the barrier or what not they'd build up in the section of my wallet under the card slots. Anyway, earlier one week I'd gone from Leeds to Bristol and back for a meeting. A day later I was heading to Newcastle. Tickets I am about to use and the reservation I always slot in my wallet in front of my bank card etc. Any ways I see the conductor coming down so casually open my wallet at the ticket isn't there. Panic set in so I start scrambling around for it. I pull out a large wad of old seat reservations, collection receipts etc from my wallet going through them to find my ticket. Turns out it's my last ticket and I've just put it in the wrong place in my wallet. Panic averted I look up and at that moment the conductor is at my row and as we got eye contact I'm the first asked for my ticket. I hand mine over placing the wad on the table. All checked and ok I'm about to put them all away and place my headphones in. It's at this point I stop as the chap sat next to me is questioned about his ticket. I'm nosey so I refrain from putting them in. The conductor asks why the passenger has handed him a Leeds to Bristol ticket that was valid three days earlier. Passenger starts reeling off the old "oh bugger I've thrown the wrong ticket away" etc etc line. Turns out the cheeky bleeder whilst I was distracted had swiped a used ticket I had. I d to say something. Now the tickets I used back then, as they were booked by a business partner, our PAs name who arranged travel would have their surname on the ticket. I just asked if their name, let's say Smith (person in question had a very distinctive foreign name) was in the corner. Conductor confirmed and I explained what's happened, and that I didn't know this person. The expletives started and I was called every name under the sun. I pulled the used tickets/reservations/collection receipts and handed them to the conductor, told he could keep them, save me a job carrying them around for weeks forgetting to sort them and bin them. It all got a bit ridiculous as the chap still refused to pay and started getting a bit, let's say rough. I'm a deceptively big chap, sat down I probably look small but when I stand up I gain stature let's say. The chap soon calmed down and was eventually met at the next stop by the Police for a chat.


Another good one was heading to Ilkley on the last train one Friday evening. Three young chaps got on rather drunk and being very loud. Conductor pops in and the usual rubbish ensues, won't pay, can't pay etc etc. I don't think the conductor could be bothered after a long day and as we were heading to Ilkley there were no manned stations and certainly no BTP. Conductor retreats, along with a barrage of insults. At that point one lad slurs to me, "how long does it take to get to Huddersfield mate?" See what's happened, many years ago the last Huddersfield stopper would sometimes go from one of the lower numbered platforms as I used to get it. Anyways, keeping stern faced I explained it'd be about half an hour and it was the last stop. I could see the eyes and restrained smiles from everyone in earshot. Guiseley arrives and I expected the realisation to come but nothing. Every stop not a peep. Even as the last stop arrives and is announced nothing. Clearly hadn't seen the screen either. Just as we are pulling in I've moved to the doors. I get off and head to the taxi waiting for me. At this point as I get in the three lads approach me confused. "Where are we mate?" "Ilkley lads, it's going to be an expensive taxi home". At which point I explained to the driver what they'd done and he radioed all taxis not to pick them up. Just hope they didn't get back on the return service to Leeds if there was one, or at least BTP were waiting in their return.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Instead of your criticising the staff, let's hear what your solutions would have been?

Seconded. What do. You expect us to do, walk away and let the flickers get away with it because the options at many stations are limited to none? BTP are only available at certain stations and almost all of these stories zBTP is not an option. In my case with afroman I was lucky, i had an off-duty officer on board going home at the end of their shift. Otherwise this guy would have been clean away and IWouldnt have been able to do anything about it!

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Instead of your criticising the staff, let's hear what your solutions would have been?

Seconded...

I'm simply dying to know his grand plan

 

[jon0844]

Seconded...

I'm simply dying to know his grand plan

The problem isn't down to the staff on the ground though, but I think there is a valid point (which I can also confirm from my own experience) that rather too many people get let off purely because there's no BTP backup, and management breathing down necks to keep trains on time.

I hardly think of it is a 'grand plan' but rather a common sense one that you have more revenue officers patrolling services, at ALL hours of the day, possibly backed up by police at night - so there's a higher chance of not only being caught but actually dealt with.

A few criminal prosecutions, along with the chance of picking up people wanted for other things, should seem like common sense. Not necessarily cheap, but having many indirect benefits that you can't put a value to. If it reduces anti-social behaviour, if it makes services feel safer (so people who are put off from travelling by train come back) and so on.

Of course you could say that if a scrote just buys a ticket, they can still get on and be abusive - but we can see that many people with the attitude problems simply don't think that way. They have no intention of paying, or complying with laws.

It's always nice to hear when things don't go the way dodgers expect, but I am sure the stats stack up to demonstrate that they win far more often than they lose, so aren't about to change their ways.

In the long run, this only makes the job more difficult for train staff because their mates and children will grow up to think it's stupid to pay, and know exactly how to avoid paying.

 

[Polarbear]

The problem isn't down to the staff on the ground though, but I think there is a valid point (which I can also confirm from my own experience) that rather too many people get let off purely because there's no BTP backup, and management breathing down necks to keep trains on time.

I hardly think of it is a 'grand plan' but rather a common sense one that you have more revenue officers patrolling services, at ALL hours of the day, possibly backed up by police at night - so there's a higher chance of not only being caught but actually dealt with.

A few criminal prosecutions, along with the chance of picking up people wanted for other things, should seem like common sense. Not necessarily cheap, but having many indirect benefits that you can't put a value to. If it reduces anti-social behaviour, if it makes services feel safer (so people who are put off from travelling by train come back) and so on.

Of course you could say that if a scrote just buys a ticket, they can still get on and be abusive - but we can see that many people with the attitude problems simply don't think that way. They have no intention of paying, or complying with laws.

It's always nice to hear when things don't go the way dodgers expect, but I am sure the stats stack up to demonstrate that they win far more often than they lose, so aren't about to change their ways.

In the long run, this only makes the job more difficult for train staff because their mates and children will grow up to think it's stupid to pay, and know exactly how to avoid paying.

I agree with this approach & there is at least one TOC that has adopted this which is Merseyrail. Whilst not prefect, evening trains aren't quite the adventure they used to be a few years back due to the use of security personnel at stations & on board trains.

Using a comparison to buses, I can recall the time when on-board ticket checks were common & inspectors could board services at any time. These days, you rarely if ever see inspectors on board buses (well around here you don't tend to). Consequently, you have many more instances of anti-social behaviour on board buses. This isn't limited to the stuff the CCTV cameras are installed for (smoking, vandalism etc), but other things like bringing hot food on board & leaving the rubbish behind, playing music/videos out loud (I could go on). Bus companies seem happy to let this sort of thing self-police itself, (which doesn't work) or make the driver responsible, which isn't really on either.

Having random checks using security personnel may seem costly in the first instance, but there would be many longer term benefits such as;

• Reduced ticketless travel
• Improved revenue stream to TOC
• Less rubbish left on board
• Cleaner trains
• Increased patronage from fare paying customers
• Improved survey responses
• Becomes self serving as word gets around of improvements & less opportunity to dodge fares

Seems like a win-win to me -which begs the question why TOC's aren't putting a little more money into this?

 

[jon0844]

Because they'd argue it's not fair that they should pay.

As I've said before, it's like councils cutting bus funding while having to work on dealing with increasing car usage and not seeing how one benefits the other - but different budgets.

Make it so there are going to be even more arguments about who pays, and who benefits, and it gets even more messy.

There's no joined up 'greater good' thinking where everyone works together, and so you end up with it being easier to do nothing.

Sure it means society as a whole loses out and things get worse in the future, but it's the future so who cares?