Does ‘the railway’ enjoy making things difficult for all its users?

[bakerstreet]

This thread is rather interesting.

PRIV Oyster

Hi is anyone able to give the latest advice on where best to get a NR only Priv discount on your Oyster card? E.g. can this now be done at Crossrail stations?

www.railforums.co.uk

It appears to be a good example of how the railway seems to sometimes enjoy making things difficult for its users.

In this example, even those who serve it.

So does ‘the railway’ enjoy making things difficult for its users?

 

[akm]

For 'the railway' to 'enjoy' something would require 'the railway' to be an entity capable of experiencing emotion, which would call for some... interesting... philosophy of mind positioning.

'Assume cock-up rather than conspiracy' is a good mantra. What if there is no 'the railway', just people doing their jobs? Seems to explain it.

 

[etr221]

I think this - and so many other things (see many many other threads on this forum) - are the result of 'the railway' being production rather then consumption oriented - "We'll run trains as and when it suits us, and expect passengers to work out how to use (and pay for) them (and penalise them when they get it wrong)"

Review of an interesting book "Transport for Humans" here , which seems to go into the theme (not just for railways) in some depth...

 

[FormerBritInMe]

Even more "interesting" if you are visiting from overseas, even if you have visited before but your last visit was in the "go to the window and buy a paper ticket" era.

 

[SynthD]

I don’t see the difficulty. If anything, I was most confused by what safeguarded meant, until it was explained. It’s not a normal customer problem, it’s an edge case with a clear and positive result.

 

[DarloRich]

I hope one day to be promoted to director of upsetting passengers. I have some freah ideas to make things much worse

It gives me such a warm feeling inside knowing, after a hard day at work, that i can relax at home safe in the knowledge that i have made life harder for the little people.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The trouble is, you have people in charge making decisions, who have never done the job of their underlings, so have no idea about the effect of their decisions

 

[Horizon22]

That thread will impact a really tiny minority of people with 1) a PRIV discount and 2) wanting to put it onto their Oyster. It's quite a substantial discount so it is only right there's a few safeguards. TfL also want to phase out oysters, yet people (again small numbers) that wish to put their railcard on them, so there's potential issues there. Interestingly on this point though, the OP got it sorted "with no issue" so I feel your premise is wrong.

I don't think that can be evidence of "making things difficult for all its users". Certainly some things could be improved, like any customer-facing industry, but do you have anything specific you wanted to point to? The industry isn't full of sadists.

 

[CyrusWuff]

The specific example in that thread is a combination of two issues:

1) TfL will only allow the "Priv NR Only" discount to be set by TOC staff; and
2) Cubic Transportation systems withdrew their Desktop Ticket Issuing System (FasTIS), and haven't licensed the necessary technology to other TIS suppliers, thereby preventing the majority of TOCs from continuing to provide Oyster issuing and sales at their Ticket Offices.

Theoretically. staff at London Overground stations should have been able to set the discount on their (Cubic) TVMs, but this doesn't appear to have been enabled for some reason, leaving the only option being to visit a Crossrail station.

 

[bakerstreet]

do you have anything specific you wanted to point to? The industry isn't full of sadists.

I think the reason I found it interesting is that there are often examples on the forum of occasions where life is sometimes made difficult for non-staff passengers.

Eg
- cheapest tickets not being found on websites or TVMs (for whatever reason)
- Unhelpful ticket office staff or those who lack knowledge
- difficult to use TVMs
- staff sometimes making up their own rules
- having to ‘shop around’ for excesses or to obtain certain tickets/ services
- not being let through barriers with valid off peak tickets
- being forced to purchase additional tickets where the ticket is valid
- RPIs scanning oysters within the Oyster area which have been touched in but still charging a penalty fare (eg GTR)
etc etc.

I know this forum is a conduit leading to a concentration of these complaints so I know that they may not be the norm.

And absolutely I’m sure the industry is not full of sadists, I encounter many excellent staff, and have met some of them via the forum.

But sometimes it’s easy to feel that the industry is not customer focussed enough.

The point I was perhaps clumsily trying to make, is here is an example of not ordinary customers, but even its own staff who are put to some inconvenience to get a discount to which they’re entitled.

So this was less about the industry being full of sadists, but the industry making life more difficult than it needs to be even for their own

Eg

So it looks like we are still having to make a journey to one of a very limited and inconveniently located group of stations. And it isn’t entirely clear which they are.

That's basically it - it is what it is! I find it's a bit an effort to make an annual trip to Stratford from deepest South London to do it but worth it to save a few quid a year!

When I enquired at Stratford, Brentwood and Harold Wood a couple of months ago the staff said they couldn't add priv to Oyster and I should ask at a tube station instead (which we know isn't permitted). At Romford the staff told me the reason they couldn't do it was due to a lack of union agreement on ticket office staff using the TVM's.

I tried to get non safeguarded priv added to my Oyster card at Paddington Elizabeth line a couple of weeks ago and none of the staff there had the first clue what I was taking about so just paid normal fare in the end.

 

[Mojo]

I hope one day to be promoted to director of upsetting passengers. I have some freah ideas to make things much worse

It gives me such a warm feeling inside knowing, after a hard day at work, that i can relax at home safe in the knowledge that i have made life harder for the little people.

I think it’s just a lack of interest and personal pride rather than a deliberate decision.

I’ve often thought that all new directors of railway companies should be expected to, for instance, try their TVMs out, and see how often you have to jab and prod the screen to get it to accept what you’re typing, or see how you press one letter and it selects an adjacent one. It’s such a simple thing but when you see customers at a station trying to buy a ticket and encountering these issues it just makes the railway look like it’s run by idiots.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it’s just a lack of interest and personal pride rather than a deliberate decision.

I’ve often thought that all new directors of railway companies should be expected to, for instance, try their TVMs out, and see how often you have to jab and prod the screen to get it to accept what you’re typing, or see how you press one letter and it selects an adjacent one. It’s such a simple thing but when you see customers at a station trying to buy a ticket and encountering these issues it just makes the railway look like it’s run by idiots.

That would be my view - it is a combination of incompetence and inflexibility, basically, plus an attitude that the railway deserves to exist simply because it is the railway.

 

[Magdalia]

I’ve often thought that all new directors of railway companies should be expected to, for instance, try their TVMs out, and see how often you have to jab and prod the screen to get it to accept what you’re typing, or see how you press one letter and it selects an adjacent one. It’s such a simple thing but when you see customers at a station trying to buy a ticket and encountering these issues it just makes the railway look like it’s run by idiots.

I have a lot of trouble with automatic ticket machines.

At some small stations, where the machines are out in the open, it can be impossible to read the screens at specific times of day because of reflected sunlight.

I have poor circulation to my fingertips and I've lost count of the number of times that automatic ticket machines did not recognise where I have touched the screen.

Last time I tried to use one, at an unstaffed station, I was on the point of having to abandon my journey. Fortunately another passenger turned up and pressed all the keys to select my ticket for me, so that the only bit I had to do myself was to make the payment.

In my experience they are not fit for purpose. Yes, please get all new directors of railway companies to try out their automatic ticket machines!

Finally, a dim practical question: are the touchscreens heat sensitive or pressure sensitive?

 

[Brush 4]

Automatic is the key word here, plus automation and algorithms. They cause problems in every service or industry that has them, which is increasingly almost every one. We've all been on websites trying to do online stuff. If it works, it's very easy and convenient. If something goes wrong - often - there is no-one there to help. A chatbot is not a human so they are part of the problem as well. Machines are just as bad for the reasons stated by posters above. Only today, I had a perfectly good and well in credit by a 4 figure sum card repeatedly returned to me by an ATM. No reason given, naturally. There were humans nearby as it happened, in the petrol station, no dice because the machine is operated by a separate company, nothing to do with them. Another ATM took the card first time. This is precisely the sort of automated crap that annoys people everywhere, including the railway, along with other transport operators, air, road, sea.

 

[Russel]

That would be my view - it is a combination of incompetence and inflexibility, basically, plus an attitude that the railway deserves to exist simply because it is the railway.

I agree with this, I've never experienced an industry that seems to openly treat it's customers as an inconvenience in the same way the railway does...

Our rail network has some stunning lines and excellent staff, but for every positive point, there is an equal amount of negative points.

 

[njamescouk]

loads of obscure restrictions, real and imaginary, randomly enforced. long journeys not for me, short local trips where I'm on top of the rules are ok and I can bail out if it goes pear shaped.

 

[Horizon22]

I think the reason I found it interesting is that there are often examples on the forum of occasions where life is sometimes made difficult for non-staff passengers.

Eg
- cheapest tickets not being found on websites or TVMs (for whatever reason)
- Unhelpful ticket office staff or those who lack knowledge
- difficult to use TVMs
- staff sometimes making up their own rules
- having to ‘shop around’ for excesses or to obtain certain tickets/ services
- not being let through barriers with valid off peak tickets
- being forced to purchase additional tickets where the ticket is valid
- RPIs scanning oysters within the Oyster area which have been touched in but still charging a penalty fare (eg GTR)
etc etc.

I know this forum is a conduit leading to a concentration of these complaints so I know that they may not be the norm.

And absolutely I’m sure the industry is not full of sadists, I encounter many excellent staff, and have met some of them via the forum.

But sometimes it’s easy to feel that the industry is not customer focussed enough.

The point I was perhaps clumsily trying to make, is here is an example of not ordinary customers, but even its own staff who are put to some inconvenience to get a discount to which they’re entitled.

So this was less about the industry being full of sadists, but the industry making life more difficult than it needs to be even for their own

Eg

Every single one of those points is around retailing and revenue and I would agree is an area that needs major improvement. There are many other aspects. But it’s not like those in the industry don’t know that - it’s just finding a mutually agreeable solution to many of those problems is incredibly hard.

 

[david1212]

The trouble is, you have people in charge making decisions, who have never done the job of their underlings, so have no idea about the effect of their decisions

Back in time even if they moved up the ladder fairly quickly as noticed by managers the majority started at the bottom so saw the real world issues, limitations and why what looks fine in planning and other documentation simply will not work even 90% of days.

I have a lot of trouble with automatic ticket machines.

At some small stations, where the machines are out in the open, it can be impossible to read the screens at specific times of day because of reflected sunlight.

I have poor circulation to my fingertips and I've lost count of the number of times that automatic ticket machines did not recognise where I have touched the screen.

Last time I tried to use one, at an unstaffed station, I was on the point of having to abandon my journey. Fortunately another passenger turned up and pressed all the keys to select my ticket for me, so that the only bit I had to do myself was to make the payment.

In my experience they are not fit for purpose. Yes, please get all new directors of railway companies to try out their automatic ticket machines!

Finally, a dim practical question: are the touchscreens heat sensitive or pressure sensitive?

All TVM's need to be directly linked to a control centre where an operator can make the entries on behalf of the passenger i.e. effectively a virtual booking office. Staffing levels must be adequate for an instant response else potentially others needing tickets will miss their train.

 

[Turtle]

Back in time even if they moved up the ladder fairly quickly as noticed by managers the majority started at the bottom so saw the real world issues, limitations and why what looks fine in planning and other documentation simply will not work even 90% of days.



All TVM's need to be directly linked to a control centre where an operator can make the entries on behalf of the passenger i.e. effectively a virtual booking office. Staffing levels must be adequate for an instant response else potentially others needing tickets will miss their train.

An excellent idea but there could be operational difficulties e.g. operation by individual TOCS or Network Rail. Method of communication with control Centre. Costs. etc

 

[nitten_travell]

I'm on the 1222 from Glasgow Queen Street to Oban, we've just departed. There are four coaches yet my booked seat is in coach G. There may well be a logic as to why the seventh (and eighth as there's a coach H too) letters of the alphabet are used in a four coach setup but it's not obvious to any passenger. Never mind, the labels on the coaches will tell us which is which. Except there are no labels. And it's hot. And people are trying to find seats in coaches which remain a mystery until one actually boards and can look at the reservation tickets.

So in answer to the question: I don't think "the railway" sets out to enjoy it but sometimes it does not help itself!

 

[DanNCL]

There seems to be a very prominent minority on the railway that enjoy making things hell for the customers, and sadly a lot of these people seem to be in positions where they can inflict suffering on a large number of customers and indeed their own employees. But the vast majority don’t, if anything the majority enjoy making things better for the customers not worse.

 

[Master29]

Ah the dreaded Oyster card. Tbh it's just TFL that seem to make things a pain, especially on their convoluted website. The mainline TOC's are pretty much OK most of the time.

 

[nlogax]

There seems to be a very prominent minority on the railway that enjoy making things hell for the customers, and sadly a lot of these people seem to be in positions where they can inflict suffering on a large number of customers and indeed their own employees. But the vast majority don’t, if anything the majority enjoy making things better for the customers not worse.

This, really. I'm sure there are a few in the industry that enjoy a bit of chaos and doing things that don't fit under the banner of 'customer-centric' but from my perspective as a passenger nothing seems to be done with any sort of strategic malice. From what I read on this forum day in and day it it's usually a case of the railway failing to get out of its own way in a multitude of different situations.

 

[david1212]

An excellent idea but there could be operational difficulties e.g. operation by individual TOCS or Network Rail. Method of communication with control Centre. Costs. etc

When eventually GBR is up and running so they receive all fare income and simply pay the TOC the fixed basic fee plus their share anything earned in addition TVM's logically would run in parallel with GBR internet online ticket purchase. The basic communication would be voice with the entered purchase(s) displayed but to cover disabilities there could be onscreen and sign language. The latter requires training a few staff.
Yes a cost but still, so were are lead to believe, big savings from closing many ticket offices and there ought to be better utilisation of staff.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I think the reason I found it interesting is that there are often examples on the forum of occasions where life is sometimes made difficult for non-staff passengers.

Eg
- cheapest tickets not being found on websites or TVMs (for whatever reason)
- Unhelpful ticket office staff or those who lack knowledge
- difficult to use TVMs
- staff sometimes making up their own rules
- having to ‘shop around’ for excesses or to obtain certain tickets/ services
- not being let through barriers with valid off peak tickets
- being forced to purchase additional tickets where the ticket is valid
- RPIs scanning oysters within the Oyster area which have been touched in but still charging a penalty fare (eg GTR)
etc etc.

Railcard discounst not being avaailble at a ticket office unless the railcard and its owner are both present. This meant that I was unable to buy a ticket in advancefor my 85 year old grandmother, who thus had to make a special trip into town for the purpose. (THis was in 1981, when online purcahses were not possible. Bizarrely, the rule still applies to tickest bought at ticket offices, although telesales and online sales don't require a railcard to be present (or even exist at the time of purchase - I bought an advance ticket with an over-60 discount when I was still 59).

 

[STINT47]

I often get the impression that someone the railway take a view that we run the service our way and you either accept it or don't use it.

There are a number of things that the railway does that aren't particularly customer friendly. And heaven forbid that you make a complaint, as most TOCs customer service is appealing with long waits and poor responses that don't fix the issue.

I guess the problem is that unlike most other industries peoplehave to usethe railways. I may not be happy with the service on occasions but if want to get around I have no other option. This probably creates the attitude amongst some that you either use itour way or don't.

 

[philthetube]

Railcard discounst not being avaailble at a ticket office unless the railcard and its owner are both present. This meant that I was unable to buy a ticket in advancefor my 85 year old grandmother, who thus had to make a special trip into town for the purpose. (THis was in 1981, when online purcahses were not possible. Bizarrely, the rule still applies to tickest bought at ticket offices, although telesales and online sales don't require a railcard to be present (or even exist at the time of purchase - I bought an advance ticket with an over-60 discount when I was still 59).

Agreed, I often travel with my mother, meeting her on route, I have a priv she has a disabled railcard, we would like to be sit together without loads of hassle.

 

[route101]

Its the myriad of ticket options you get. Off peak return, anytime day return, semi flex return, super off peak return etc. Then the routings that affect ticket price, want to go via Reading rather than Salisbury, much more expensive for example.

 

[TW1306]

I feel like part of the problem stems from railways often being treated as a business first and a public service second (not that other public services are free from this of course), I'm not sure what to expect from GBR when it's eventually up and running but hopefully a degree of standardisation will help.

 

[Bevan Price]

I feel like part of the problem stems from railways often being treated as a business first and a public service second (not that other public services are free from this of course), I'm not sure what to expect from GBR when it's eventually up and running but hopefully a degree of standardisation will help.

Railways are a business. But I think that a big problem is that many managers seem to think that passengers exist for the convenience of railways, not vice versa.