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Does Britain embrace ignorance?

Sad Sprinter

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I always thought that it does. Promoting personality, "star appeal" and style over intelligence. A culture of bashing "boffins" and a widespread pride, almost, amongst the population over a failure to understand maths or science. "Don't ask me, I just have a Maths O-Level" I've heard many times in offices.
 
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baz962

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I always thought that it does. Promoting personality, "star appeal" and style over intelligence. A culture of bashing "boffins" and a widespread pride, almost, amongst the population over a failure to understand maths or science. "Don't ask me, I just have a Maths O-Level" I've heard many times in offices.
Probably just the world over now.
 

baz962

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Hmm - really? China? Japan? A bit nearer home, Germany? Certainly our German friends have a lot more respect for STEM subjects than we do.
I wasn't referring to just that. But all of it. The bit about star appeal and the insane money china and places in the middle east are paying footballers etc. Many countries are courting celebrity and the likes.
 

E27007

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I would add narcissm to the mix, the high viewing figures of Love Island type of shows, attractive good-looking celebrities famous for being celebrities and nothing else, role models for young people especially young girls
 

westv

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I always thought that it does. Promoting personality, "star appeal" and style over intelligence. A culture of bashing "boffins" and a widespread pride, almost, amongst the population over a failure to understand maths or science. "Don't ask me, I just have a Maths O-Level" I've heard many times in offices.
Such has been the way for decades.
 

Mcr Warrior

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Baffles me as to how many TV folk get (paid?) gigs on "celebrity" quiz / gameshows before demonstrating just how generally clueless they, in all probability, are. :s
 

NorthOxonian

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I don't necessarily think so - if anything as a STEM graduate I've found people go too far the other way and are overly impressed by my degree!

To some extent as well, it boils down to a sense of self deprecation. One of the worst things you can be is a "know it all", and generally I've found people are likely to try and downplay or hide their own intelligence at first to avoid coming across this way. I think actual intelligence (and more especially expertise) is valued, but overly emphasising this or being condescending rightly gets under people's skin.
 

Thirteen

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Love Island is not a good example of the British population as a whole because they're chosen for their looks rather than their intelligence.

I watch a lot of gameshows and the likes of Only Connect and University Challenge showcase people's intelligence but even intelligent people have gaps in their knowledge.
 

route101

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I know to some of my PEERs travelling for example was seen is something that posh people do. Most people went to Blackpool or Tenerife
 

Merle Haggard

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It seems to be fashionable to be innumerate, a form of ignorance. 'I'm no good at Maths' (actually, you mean arithmetic) is so often said with pride.

I was listening to a radio news and current affairs programme the other morning when the news presenter said that being taught maths was useless and he'd given it up at 14 and that had done him no harm. He then went on to discuss football finances with the sports reporter; the latter referred to an amount of several billion pounds and said 'but I'm useless with maths, don't know how much that is' (I detected with pride, rather than shame in his voice) and the presenter confidently said ''a billion's a one with 8 noughts after it'.

P.S.; I wonder how the sports presenter works out who has won, as it involves knowing that one particular number is larger or smaller than another. Advanced 'maths' :)
 

Lucan

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I've found people go too far the other way and are overly impressed by my degree!
.... I think actual intelligence (and more especially expertise) is valued
Very few people know that I have a degree, I don't tell them (but now I just did :smile: ). I certainly never told any of the handful of GFs I had before I married in case they assumed I was a nerdy and limp-wristed stereotype. Having a degree was not as common then, before Tony Blair decided that everyone should have one. After going out with one GF for a few months she suddenly said "You're brainy, aren't you" : she was not very bright herself and it felt like an accusation rather than a compliment, like "What are we doing together?".

But people compartmentalise others. If you are "brainy" (as she put it), in their eyes you are supposed to remain in some distant "brainy" circle, discussing philosophy and higher mathematics all day long. You don't get invited to parties, and you are not supposed to be physically fit, nor be capable of anything practical, nor be good looking, and you certainly cannot have any romantic ideas. If you try to escape from the compartment they have placed you in, people get angry and try to put you back.

However, people are very pleased to take advantage of any expertise you have, and assume you have the time to do it, and enjoy doing it. Fixing other people's computers is a prime example of that.
 

Cdd89

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One thought I had is that there are now very few people left alive who have a genuine excuse for being unable to use basic technology. Despite that, many people over 60 are almost proud of not understanding it.
 

THC

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Undoubtedly. Michael Gove said it for many during the run up to the 2016 EU exit referendum, "oh, we've had enough of experts". That mistrust of intellect is borne out through the vernacular - "too clever by half" and the like. I've been conscious all my life of being too showy with knowledge: people simply don't like it. Whether that is because they feel shown up or threatened I honestly couldn't say.

THC
 

GusB

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One thought I had is that there are now very few people left alive who have a genuine excuse for being unable to use basic technology. Despite that, many people over 60 are almost proud of not understanding it.
That's easy to say when you've been brought up with technology. People who are 10 years older than me will not have had computers at school and it's quite possible that some will have gone through life without having to use one. Even if they did use one in a work situation, it's likely that it was simply used as a tool for a specific purpose.
 

Cdd89

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People who are 10 years older than me will not have had computers at school and it's quite possible that some will have gone through life without one
I’m not sure how old you are :smile: but hence why I said an “excuse” not to have learned. A 60-70 year old today would have been 40-50 when modern computing and the Internet was clearly the way everything was moving, with likely impending decline and retirement of manual methods. Not learning technology whilst able would have been a big mistake, IMO.
 

trebor79

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I always thought that it does. Promoting personality, "star appeal" and style over intelligence. A culture of bashing "boffins" and a widespread pride, almost, amongst the population over a failure to understand maths or science. "Don't ask me, I just have a Maths O-Level" I've heard many times in offices.
It started a couple of decades ago with the rise of "reality TV". Remember after the first series of Big Brother, Jade Goody going on the Graham Norton show and displaying how stupid and thick she was to laughter and applause. Particular segment where she was stood in front of a map and asked to mark where various places were, and it was apparently hilarious and something to be celebrated that she didn't know.
 

richa2002

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Undoubtedly. Michael Gove said it for many during the run up to the 2016 EU exit referendum, "oh, we've had enough of experts". That mistrust of intellect is borne out through the vernacular - "too clever by half" and the like. I've been conscious all my life of being too showy with knowledge: people simply don't like it. Whether that is because they feel shown up or threatened I honestly couldn't say.

THC
I feel as though the "we've had enough of experts" line is totally misunderstood by most who seem to think it is some kind of brag of wilful ignorance. Quite the opposite, it is a frustration from those who seek the truth that they are told to believe an 'expert' simply because they are decreed as an expert, regardless of the logical sense of the argument they are making or their track record of actually being wrong or right. It is not that people are sick of the truth, which one would think a genuine expert would be more likely to provide than your average Joe.

Basically, 'experts' became political rather than objective staters of truth.

I also don't think people generally have a problem with knowledge or academic ability. Phrases like "too clever by half" or "know it all" are more a comment on someone's social skills of knowing when is the right time to point out if someone is wrong and the manner in which they do it.
 
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THC

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I feel as though the "we've had enough of experts" line is totally misunderstood by most who seem to think it is some kind of brag of wilful ignorance. Quite the opposite, it is a frustration from those who seek the truth that they are told to believe an 'expert' simply because they are decreed as an expert, regardless of the logical sense of the argument they are making or their track record of actually being wrong or right. It is not that people are actually sick of the truth, which one would think a genuine expert would be more likely to provide than your average Joe.

Basically, 'experts' became political rather than objective staters of truth.
The reaction to that speech, whether in a gleeful media or in the reactions of many people at the time, hinted at an essential truth, that people generally do not trust experts because of their status or learning, but more because their views accord with their own. Confirmation bias trumps fact, in other words. Welcome to the post-truth age.

THC
 

richa2002

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The reaction to that speech, whether in a gleeful media or in the reactions of many people at the time, hinted at an essential truth, that people generally do not trust experts because of their status or learning, but more because their views accord with their own. Confirmation bias trumps fact, in other words. Welcome to the post-truth age.

THC
I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree on that then.
 

al78

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The reaction to that speech, whether in a gleeful media or in the reactions of many people at the time, hinted at an essential truth, that people generally do not trust experts because of their status or learning, but more because their views accord with their own. Confirmation bias trumps fact, in other words. Welcome to the post-truth age.

THC
People don't like experts when they say uncomfortable truths which conflict with what they want to believe (e,g, anything to do with anthropogenic climate change or health). We live in a world where inventing a fluffy feeling version of the truth is an acceptable alternative to dealing with the real truth, and this is what often causes very bad decision making. Humans are irrational, emotion trumps logic, gut feeling and so-called common sense (ugh!) trumps objective analysis.
 

JamesT

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It may help to put the complete quote of Gove:
I think the people of this country have had enough of experts with organisations with acronyms saying that they know what is best and getting it consistently wrong.
He was referring to organisations such as the IMF making economic predictions. Given how bad macro-economic forecasting is, (see how often the figures have to be revised), it's not necessarily a bad thing to have a healthy scepticism in that area.
It's not an outright rejection of anyone with some apparent knowledge or expertise in an area.
 

Drogba11CFC

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I feel as though the "we've had enough of experts" line is totally misunderstood by most who seem to think it is some kind of brag of wilful ignorance. Quite the opposite, it is a frustration from those who seek the truth that they are told to believe an 'expert' simply because they are decreed as an expert, regardless of the logical sense of the argument they are making or their track record of actually being wrong or right. It is not that people are sick of the truth, which one would think a genuine expert would be more likely to provide than your average Joe.

Basically, 'experts' became political rather than objective staters of truth.

I also don't think people generally have a problem with knowledge or academic ability. Phrases like "too clever by half" or "know it all" are more a comment on someone's social skills of knowing when is the right time to point out if someone is wrong and the manner in which they do it.
Remember that if it was solely up to the "boffins" and "experts", we'd probably still be in lockdown.
 

bluenoxid

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I think it was worst in previous decades. There was a cult of admiring the amateur and I think we’ve realised that we need to invest and work on things to do well or we fail to do well. People avoiding technology are being squeezed and one of the contributors at the moment is 2 factor authentication and online banking.
 

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