Does LU produce its own power, independent of the National Grid?

[Howardh]

Am I right in thinking the London Underground produces it's own power independent of the national grid?

 

[Steve Harris]

Am I right in thinking the London Underground produces it's own power independent of the national grid?

It used to, as I had an ex co-worker who did his apprenticeship there.

However, I believe that power station is now plush apartments. ( I can't remember it's name but it is/was near the Thames and in the Fulham/Chelsea area). I don't know if TfL has any other power generating plants anywhere else though.

Edit. It was Lots Road https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lots_Road_Power_Station
Decommissioned in 2002.

 

[bramling]

Am I right in thinking the London Underground produces it's own power independent of the national grid?

Not really any more. In fact it’s never really been the case that LU relied entirely on its own power generation, albeit that Lots Road did supply power for a substantial part of the system (mainly the central area) until around the start of the new millennium. Parts of the system, especially the suburbs, have always relied on the grid.

Greenwich, which is still operational, is nowadays purely a backup facility and only comes online when required. I’m open to correction but from memory I don’t think it’s capable of supplying traction power.

 

[Howardh]

It used to, as I had an ex co-worker who did his apprenticeship there.

However, I believe that power station is now plush apartments. ( I can't remember it's name but it is/was near the Thames and in the Fulham/Chelsea area). I don't know if TfL has any other power generating plants anywhere else though.

Edit. It was Lots Road https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lots_Road_Power_Station
Decommissioned in 2002.

Not really any more. In fact it’s never really been the case that LU relied entirely on its own power generation, albeit that Lots Road did supply power for a substantial part of the system (mainly the central area) until around the start of the new millennium. Parts of the system, especially the suburbs, have always relied on the grid.

Greenwich, which is still operational, is nowadays purely a backup facility and only comes online when required. I’m open to correction but from memory I don’t think it’s capable of supplying traction power.

Thanks for the info; I'm actually quite surprised it doesn't - so the LU could be affected by any "strikes" by power workers (as could trains)? He asks remembering the 70's!!

 

[dewsnapsliding]

Wikipedia (I know) suggests that LU are looking at upgrading the generators at Greenwich.

If this sort of situation becomes more prevalent, probably more expedient to do something!

 

[Intellectual98]

Wikipedia (I know) suggests that LU are looking at upgrading the generators at Greenwich.

If this sort of situation becomes more prevalent, probably more expedient to do something!

They might generate their own power, but they will still be tied into the grid. They probably would go down with the grid too. I doubt a couple of generators would be able to react to the peaks and troughs of a railway, without major voltage spikes so the grid will absorb the changes. They only generate their own power as it's cheaper than paying the grid for it all.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

??? Greenwich remains operational, if needed I can't recall the last time it was used as the operating practice for the past almost 20 years has been to supply LUL from the National Grid, on the grounds of cost effectiveness and reliability.... I would guess it would need about 30 mins to power up if needed (it's fed with gas). But most of LUL could be supplied from Greenwich if needed: many early railways had their own power stations and managed to supply reliable power despite 'the peaks and troughs of a railway'. The only real thing that's changed since then is much more widespread of power electronics to control motors and auxilliaries, and these devices are sensitive to frequency and voltage so these variables need to be controlled more precisely.

 

[AlbertBeale]

??? Greenwich remains operational, if needed I can't recall the last time it was used as the operating practice for the past almost 20 years has been to supply LUL from the National Grid, on the grounds of cost effectiveness and reliability.... I would guess it would need about 30 mins to power up if needed (it's fed with gas). But most of LUL could be supplied from Greenwich if needed: many early railways had their own power stations and managed to supply reliable power despite 'the peaks and troughs of a railway'. The only real thing that's changed since then is much more widespread of power electronics to control motors and auxilliaries, and these devices are sensitive to frequency and voltage so these variables need to be controlled more precisely.

When London Transport did produce much of their own power, years ago, it was I believe used for the trams and trolleybuses too, as well as the Underground.

I was sorry, cycling past Lots Road a while back, to see what had been a publicly-owned and functional part of London's infrastructure being turned into homes - or, quite likely, un-lived-in "investment vehicles" - for rich people.

 

[etr221]

When London Transport did produce much of their own power, years ago, it was I believe used for the trams and trolleybuses too, as well as the Underground

Yes - Greenwich was inherited from the LCC, having been built to power their tram system. Apparently (many years ago) it was a failure of this (which halted the trams) that was at least part of the inspiration for what became the National Grid, an interconnection of all the various power stations and electricity suppliers.

LPTB also inherited a power station at Neasden from the Metropolitan Railway.

I don't know where the other pre LT tramways got their power from but certainly in some cases there was essentially one undertaking, which had a power station, ran trams, and supplied electricity to consumers (domestic, business and industrial), and LT only took over the tramway element.

 

[Dstock7080]

I don't know where the other pre LT tramways got their power from but certainly in some cases there was essentially one undertaking, which had a power station, ran trams, and supplied electricity to consumers (domestic, business and industrial), and LT only took over the tramway element.

Large LUT generating station at Chiswick Depot (today’s Stamford Brook bus garage)

 

[Mountain Man]

Thanks for the info; I'm actually quite surprised it doesn't - so the LU could be affected by any "strikes" by power workers (as could trains)? He asks remembering the 70's!!

I think that's a risk that doesn't really exist.

 

[sharpley]

West Ham Intake Substation (WIS) was built as part of the JLE, located between Canning Town and West Ham (brick building on the left as you head to Stratford). I believe this connects to a nearby NG substation and is a major supply point to LU. Isn't the newish building overlooking Edgware Rd (H&C) another NG connection point / substation?

 

[Nym]

I think that's a risk that doesn't really exist.

You mean like when the LU PCC people went on strike?

 

[bramling]

Isn't the newish building overlooking Edgware Rd (H&C) another NG connection point / substation?

Yes, although this rather post-dates the closure of Lots Road, being AIUI provided as part of the general reinforcement of power supply associated with the S stock / sub surface upgrade.

Lots Road power station was essentially replaced by a bulk supply point adjacent to the power station, which is still there, with a cable route running from there to LU (presumably via the West London Line?). There's another such bulk supply point at Neasden, which again replaced the power station there. A few more exist at various strategic locations - Mansell Street, Acton Lane, West Ham, Finchley and Manor House. Two further ones exist for the East London Line - Canal Junction and Hoxton. The practice is little different for how NR feed their DC substations - a bulk intake from the grid, with cable routes to each individual substation.

 

[bramling]

You mean like when the LU PCC people went on strike?

It has certainly happened. LU have managers who have been on a training course to cover this role in emergency. Bearing in mind the highly specialised and safety-critical nature of the electrical control room operator role, I'll leave it up to people to make up their own minds how safe this is...

 

[Mountain Man]

You mean like when the LU PCC people went on strike?

No, I mean the National Grid is diversified sources anyway

 

[Busaholic]

May I be permitted to add a little more historical detail to the excellent previous contributions?

The City and South London Railway (the forerunner of the Northern Line Bank branch) was the first to go with electric traction,. They quickly purchased a site near Stockwell for erection of a power station, this already being the nearest place to the centre where they could find the space required. It was, I believe, the largest power station in the world when it opened in the 1890s, but, even then, it barely had sufficient capacity to power the trains.

The Central London Railway erected a large power station at its depot site at Wood Lane, and these were at the time the largest power station buildings on the various Underground railways in London, with room for further expansion if required.

Not strictly 'the Underground', but the Waterloo and City Railway constructed its own power station within the confines of its depot, just to the south of its Waterloo terminus.Getting the coal down to it was a rather convoluted process, as you might imagine!

Sorry, I'm not a technical bod, so can't really help with how this all worked in practice, but hope it adds to the picture.