Does the East Grinstead Branch really need 8 carriage trains?

[LudwigTails]

I have so far traveled on the east grinstead(EG) branch about 3 times now, 2 on a round trip from london and one was from East Grinstead back to London to change trains there. All of those times the trains arent even that crowded at all. Even when it was at about 5-6pm, hell passing east croydon to london the train wasnt even full at all and still have seats free. Honestly it looks like if Southern runs just 4 car trains it will just be as fine and spare up some units. Is the East Grinstead Branch that busy or necessary to run 8 car trains every time? Or even how busy can the London Victoria to East Grinstead line be?

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Plenty full mornings to London and evenings from London. Also plenty full at weekends into London late morning and early afternoon. The problem with any broadly commuter service is that a full train going one way needs an emptyish one going the other way. There’s also the East Croydon point, where services can pickup a lot of passengers depending on quite how the Brighton Main Line is running.

But yes, counter-peak can be quiet.

 

[ComUtoR]

I would have thought that getting a seat was a priority for passengers

 

[zwk500]

Certainly need them between Croydon and Victoria. Down to Oxted used to be fairly busy pre-Covid as well. East Grinstead is also a railhead for a reasonable area as it has twice the frequency of trains on the Uckfield Line but isn't as rammed as trains from Three Bridges or Gatwick Airport.

I would have thought that getting a seat was a priority for passengers

Tbf the OP's hope may have been the unit could be deployed elsewhere.

 

[ComUtoR]

Tbf the OP's hope may have been the unit could be deployed elsewhere.

Its a bit of a double edged sword. If you run a short length unit, your capacity is restricted, has no flexibility or resilience. If you run a longer length then I'd potentially agree that services may look under used and could potentially be used elsewhere.

Using my railway head.... It could have been that the unit was running as MO (Multiple only)

 

[swt_passenger]

It’s been noticeable in the entire outer suburban network for years, but I’m sure applies equally to numerous routes. It’s easier operationally to leave the trains the same size all day than split them to single units during the Offpeak, because doing the latter needs more drivers, and more stabling sidings at the outer extents of the network. There‘s only limited space to leave half the train length at the London end terminus, because it blocks platforms, and there isn’t necessarily track capacity to run extra ECS out and back to and from the London end sidings.

Picture London Bridge or Victoria running at maximum frequency then superimpose a similar number of split half-trains running ECS back to a depot just after the morning peak. Then do it again in reverse about 5 hours later, ensuring everything arrives at exactly the right time to make the join.

An early evening up train may have been full in the down direction and will also be full again on its next booked down trip, so the intervening up trip has to be 8 car even if nobody is travelling that direction.

 

[ExRes]

I have so far traveled on the east grinstead(EG) branch about 3 times now, 2 on a round trip from london and one was from East Grinstead back to London to change trains there. All of those times the trains arent even that crowded at all. Even when it was at about 5-6pm, hell passing east croydon to london the train wasnt even full at all and still have seats free. Honestly it looks like if Southern runs just 4 car trains it will just be as fine and spare up some units. Is the East Grinstead Branch that busy or necessary to run 8 car trains every time? Or even how busy can the London Victoria to East Grinstead line be?

I think @swt_passenger covers the entire subject most sensibly in post #6, East Grinstead is fortunate that there are stabling facilities where an 8 car can be split, stabled and reformed later but would, of course, require alterations to at least two drivers diagrams to actually carry out or have a driver spending an entire shift sitting uselessly at EG for the sake of two moves

 

[dk1]

I think @swt_passenger covers the entire subject most sensibly in post #6, East Grinstead is fortunate that there are stabling facilities where an 8 car can be split, stabled and reformed later but would, of course, require alterations to at least two drivers diagrams to actually carry out or have a driver spending an entire shift sitting uselessly at EG for the sake of two moves

Also adds risk of problems when coupling/uncoupling. Several years ago it was decided to split and leave units at Liverpool Street during the day. This didn’t last more than a timetable due that and performance issues of other services coming into occupied platforms.

 

[JonathanH]

The lack of weekday demand on the East Grinstead line has been managed by running hourly services between the peaks.

 

[infobleep]

If they did run as 4 catalogue off peak, would there need to be 2 services an hour instead?

Reigate to London Victotia is 2, 4-car services an hour? I appreciate the Reigate platforms can't deal with 8 carriages, but may be that would be hourly if they could. Just talking off peak and I have no idea. Just wondering out loud as whenever I hear 4-cars and Govia Thameslink Railway, I think Reigate to London Victoria.

 

[PGAT]

If they did run as 4 catalogue off peak, would there need to be 2 services an hour instead?

Reigate to London Victotia is 2, 4-car services an hour? I appreciate the Reigate platforms can't deal with 8 carriages, but may be that would be hourly if they could. Just talking off peak and I have no idea. Just wondering out loud as whenever I hear 4-cars and Govia Thameslink Railway, I think Reigate to London Victoria.

I think Reigate is different as it has historically pretty much always had 4 cars so demand has adapted. I could totally imagine an alternate timeline where 2tph 8 car trains get well loaded throughout the day

 

[LudwigTails]

I think Reigate is different as it has historically pretty much always had 4 cars so demand has adapted. I could totally imagine an alternate timeline where 2tph 8 car trains get well loaded throughout the day

Isnt it because its forever 4 car is due to platform length at reigate?

 

[PGAT]

Isnt it because its forever 4 car is due to platform length at reigate?

Yes

 

[Schweir]

Yes

Can they not run 8 car services all day, and run the other set to Gatwick (like in the peaks) or Three Bridges / Horsham?

 

[PGAT]

Can they not run 8 car services all day, and run the other set to Gatwick (like in the peaks) or Three Bridges / Horsham?

They could but probably more expensive than its worth because it copes fine with 4 coaches off-peak

 

[ExRes]

I thought this thread was about the East Grinstead branch

 

[LudwigTails]

Can they not run 8 car services all day, and run the other set to Gatwick (like in the peaks) or Three Bridges / Horsham?

Oddly enough i swear i remember seeing a train out of Vicotria that goes to Reigate and Gatwick Airport at one point. The train then seperates at Redhill if i wasnt mistaken.

 

[OliverH68]

Oddly enough i swear i remember seeing a train out of Vicotria that goes to Reigate and Gatwick Airport at one point. The train then seperates at Redhill if i wasnt mistaken.

This happens every weekday in the peaks.

 

[Starmill]

I don't think it's really a phenomenon limited to East Grinstead services. How many trains are running anything close to full to and from Alton, Shoeburyness or Corby? Pretty much none are loaded proportionately heavily at any time of day on any day of the year. It's inefficient, but it's a consequence of having a very large traffic sink at one end of the route and a very minor one at the other end. If you compare that to say the Chat Moss or Calder Valley routes, or the large majority of CrossCountry services, there you have a much higher proportion of capacity utilised, because there are traffic sinks of a similar attraction at both ends of the route, so you pick up a small amount of end-to-end and a larger amount of churn along the way. There are even worse examples of London trains being completely dead at the Country end of their route out there, like Aylesbury Vale Parkway, Ore or Braintree.

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think it's really a phenomenon limited to East Grinstead services. How many trains are running anything close to full to and from Alton, Shoeburyness or Corby? Pretty much none are loaded proportionately heavily at any time of day on any day of the year. It's inefficient, but it's a consequence of having a very large traffic sink at one end of the route and a very minor one at the other end. If you compare that to say the Chat Moss or Calder Valley routes, or the large majority of CrossCountry services, there you have a much higher proportion of capacity utilised, because there are traffic sinks of a similar attraction at both ends of the route, so you pick up a small amount of end-to-end and a larger amount of churn along the way. There are even worse examples of London trains being completely dead at the Country end of their route out there, like Aylesbury Vale Parkway, Ore or Braintree.

To be fair to Ore, it's very close to the real traffic centre of Hastings St Leonards. Loadings are generally healthy to those points.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I have so far traveled on the east grinstead(EG) branch about 3 times now, 2 on a round trip from london and one was from East Grinstead back to London to change trains there. All of those times the trains arent even that crowded at all. Even when it was at about 5-6pm, hell passing east croydon to london the train wasnt even full at all and still have seats free. Honestly it looks like if Southern runs just 4 car trains it will just be as fine and spare up some units. Is the East Grinstead Branch that busy or necessary to run 8 car trains every time? Or even how busy can the London Victoria to East Grinstead line be?

8 loads of them are 12's on weekday no doubt so they can cover the rush hour traffic without having to be strengthened somewhere but thats a heck of a lot of energy being used all day long.

 

[infobleep]

They could but probably more expensive than its worth because it copes fine with 4 coaches off-peak

If it does indeed cope with 4 off peak, then perhaps if the platform was long enough it would cope fine with 8 off peak once a hour.

I thought this thread was about the East Grinstead branch

It is but no harm in comparing it to other lines.

 

[MrJeeves]

Brighton Maim Lime

No idea if that was intentional, but it's certainly accurate at times!

 

[Cricketer8for9]

No idea if that was intentional, but it's certainly accurate at times!

Corrected. Hoist on my own pedantic petard. I shall try to do better. With lots of love, Robert.

 

[LudwigTails]

during when time is crowded. Does that still happens between east grinstead and whatever station is before east croydon? Or is it just really east croydon to london victoria that could really need the 8 cars?
Cuz otherwise why not combine reigate and east grinstead trains, have 4 cars go to reigate, 4 to east grinstead? join and seperate at east croydon? or is that also not possible due to some possible reason like, pathing, allowance time within station, not enough drivers etc etc?

 

[MCR247]

during when time is crowded. Does that still happens between east grinstead and whatever station is before east croydon? Or is it just really east croydon to london victoria that could really need the 8 cars?
Cuz otherwise why not combine reigate and east grinstead trains, have 4 cars go to reigate, 4 to east grinstead? join and seperate at east croydon? or is that also not possible due to some possible reason like, pathing, allowance time within station, not enough drivers etc etc?

Splitting and joining trains at East Croydon would take up more capacity and introduce a lot of risk to performance.

 

[zwk500]

To be fair to Ore, it's very close to the real traffic centre of Hastings St Leonards. Loadings are generally healthy to those points.

Agreed, travel between Lewes, Eastbourne and Hastings can be substantial expecially with college students.
Also, unless it's changed since covid, it's quite rare for more than 4 to continue past Eastbourne.

 

[The exile]

during when time is crowded. Does that still happens between east grinstead and whatever station is before east croydon? Or is it just really east croydon to london victoria that could really need the 8 cars?
Cuz otherwise why not combine reigate and east grinstead trains, have 4 cars go to reigate, 4 to east grinstead? join and seperate at east croydon? or is that also not possible due to some possible reason like, pathing, allowance time within station, not enough drivers etc etc?

Even if East Croydon were signalled for splitting and joining trains (I doubt it is, but may be wrong) there is no way that for most of the day there would be the capacity to do it. Add in the possibility of a delay (however “minor”) to one of the two portions and you’re risking fouling up what is already a bottleneck. 9 times out of 10, if things “have always been done this way” there’s a very good reason for it, which you mess with at everyone’s peril!

 

[Minstral25]

They could but probably more expensive than its worth because it copes fine with 4 coaches off-peak

Just about - standing from Coulsdon or Purley on many daytime trains. It should be 8 coaches really but that needs Reigate Station updated.

East Grinstead trains can be as busy during the daytime but obviously not all are. 8 coaches seems sensible when hourly although I guess that might change when the off-peak service doubles in December as rumoured.

Both the East Grinstead and Reigate trains are the only ones [Edit] to Victoria that use platforms 4-6 at East Croydon so probably not as important for the capacity needs between East Croydon and Victoria with main line trains on P1-3 just a few minutes ahead of them.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Both the East Grinstead and Reigate trains are the only ones to use platforms 4-6 at East Croydon so probably not as important for the capacity needs between East Croydon and Victoria with main line trains on P1-3 just a few minutes ahead of them.

Aren't there any number of Southbound trains bound for places like Gatwick Airport, Three Bridges and Brighton and various other destinations such as Caterham also Horsham that all use platforms 5 and 6 at East Croydon as well as trains for Bedford, London Victoria and London Bridge (Northbound) all using platform 4?