Does the location of some depots detract from the running of the railway?

[Gathursty]

Intrigued by the discussion of the Dales Rail service being changed to Manchester - Ribblehead and the discussion of Blackpool depots' involvement and also the staffing requirements to operate the Heysham boat shuttle, I wonder if this problem is more widespread?

Furthermore, I seem to recall an EMR service in the past that went ECS from Nottingham to Liverpool and vice versa. Also heard of some taxi rides going quite some distance to get staff in the right place at the crack of dawn too.

 

[ComUtoR]

As per the thread title.. Yes

 

[NSE]

You’ll never be able to have a depot at the end of every branch line. Taxis are needed to take you to run the first train. You could run it ECS to save the taxi but then to take an empty train out the yard and down to the branch might take longer so you lose time there. Plus some lines might have engineering work through the night and the taxi negates this. Essentially, six of one.

I’ve always found the allocation of routes to be more of a hindrance. I commute daily on the Sutton Loop and it’s heavily staffed from Cricklewood depot. Always makes me chuckle that a fault/problem in a depot the other side of London means I can’t get my morning train to either Sutton or Streatham. But that’s the operational railway, lines have to be drawn somewhere.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

There are some ludicrous arrangements that don’t help service reliability.

It always grieves me that a train to Whitehaven can be cancelled from Carlisle due to a lack of train crew but there may well be a Carlisle based driver or guard sitting spare in the messroom.

This was understandable (to a degree) when Carlisle was in the north-east franchise and Workington in the north-west, but that hasn’t applied for many years.

Obviously there would be a cost to the initial route learning. but I’m sure that would be more than made up for by the resulting improvement in performance and reliability.

 

[Gloster]

I don’t know if the arrangement still exists, but one set of Westbury traincrew would sit all night in a set a Weymouth, having worked the last down and would return on the first up. A second crew would be taxied down to work the second up. That is one I know well, but I have heard of plenty of others: wasn’t there a Peterborough-Splading train that started at Nottingham or Leicester ar some unearthly hour (before 05.00, I think).

 

[Deepgreen]

It depends on whether train or crew depots are in question, but the current week-long closure to trains of the North Downs line in its entirety seems to be because the crew depot is at Reading, i.e. one end of the route, meaning that a part rail, part bus replacement service with trains reversing at either Guildford or Blackwater has been thought impossible because getting train crews from Reading to a train pick-up point isn't being done. There must be numerous similar examples around the country.

 

[Iskra]

This thread seems to have gone down a mainly train crew focused route, but there are also a number of examples of ‘depot lottery’ creating a disjointed/imbalanced service pattern early in the morning or late at night where all the trains seem to run in one direction to get them to or from a depot, leaving the service in the opposite direction extremely sparse.

 

[RPI]

I don’t know if the arrangement still exists, but one set of Westbury traincrew would sit all night in a set a Weymouth, having worked the last down and would return on the first up. A second crew would be taxied down to work the second up. That is one I know well, but I have heard of plenty of others: wasn’t there a Peterborough-Splading train that started at Nottingham or Leicester ar some unearthly hour (before 05.00, I think).

Pretty sure you may be right about Weymouth, though likely just a driver as GWR has guards based at Weymouth but no drivers.

 

[DaventryRabbit]

Intrigued by the discussion of the Dales Rail service being changed to Manchester - Ribblehead and the discussion of Blackpool depots' involvement and also the staffing requirements to operate the Heysham boat shuttle, I wonder if this problem is more widespread and how it can be fixed.

Furthermore I seem to recall an EMR service in the past that went ECS from Nottingham to Liverpool and vice versa. Also heard of some taxi rides going quite some distance to get staff in the right place at the crack of dawn too.

There still is a few EMR ECS Workings Nottinghan to Liverpool, which form the early services ex Lime St through to Norwich. One leaves Nottm around 0330 I believe...

 

[muz379]

For sure the locations and sizes of some depots does define the operations , that isn't to say things don't also change sometimes with new depots being opened or work significantly shifted . Some depots of course historically have also had big cards/decent work variety .

There are some ludicrous arrangements that don’t help service reliability.

It always grieves me that a train to Whitehaven can be cancelled from Carlisle due to a lack of train crew but there may well be a Carlisle based driver or guard sitting spare in the messroom.

This was understandable (to a degree) when Carlisle was in the north-east franchise and Workington in the north-west, but that hasn’t applied for many years.

Obviously there would be a cost to the initial route learning. but I’m sure that would be more than made up for by the resulting improvement in performance and reliability.

It isn't just the intial cost of route learning , its the cost or recast of work associated with maintaining the competency , you would have to give carlisle depot regular work over it for them to maintain it , and the establishments of the relevant depots will be based on the current casting of work .

 

[Horizon22]

This thread seems to have gone down a mainly train crew focused route, but there are also a number of examples of ‘depot lottery’ creating a disjointed/imbalanced service pattern early in the morning or late at night where all the trains seem to run in one direction to get them to or from a depot, leaving the service in the opposite direction extremely sparse.

Yes some places / routes definitely get later first trains & earlier last trains due to the historical location of depots. Much easier to run a train an hour later if it goes straight into a bordering depot after terminating as opposed to a 30+ minute ECS move with crew late at night possibly with shunts and reversing too.

 

[Craig1122]

I believe part of the reason SWR created a new depot at Feltham was because the existing stabling points at Staines & Strawberry Hill couldn't take 10 cars and can't be extended. Opening a new depot therefore cut down on dead mileage.

 

[Ken H]

Neville Hill. Wrong side of Leeds station IMHO.

 

[Lemmy99uk]

For sure the locations and sizes of some depots does define the operations , that isn't to say things don't also change sometimes with new depots being opened or work significantly shifted . Some depots of course historically have also had big cards/decent work variety .


It isn't just the intial cost of route learning , its the cost or recast of work associated with maintaining the competency , you would have to give carlisle depot regular work over it for them to maintain it , and the establishments of the relevant depots will be based on the current casting of work .

It’s not that difficult. Unfortunately it’s just one of those things where both railway and union are stuck in the past and unable to make simple changes that would improve the service to the customer.

It would only take 2 turns containing a Whitehaven trip to enable Carlisle to maintain competence. There is no logical reason why depot establishments can’t be adjusted to reflect this. There is a big enough turnover of staff to enable this to be done without forced transfers.
In fact, Workington depot has seen a steady increase in train crew over the last few years. With a little more thought, some of those posts could have been at Carlisle to allow the work to move.

 

[Bevan Price]

I was once told that a Liverpool driver took an early morning taxi to Holyhead, to work the first Holyhead - Euston service. No idea if that was true, or still happens.

 

[Anonymous10]

Pretty sure you may be right about Weymouth, though likely just a driver as GWR has guards based at Weymouth but no drivers.

Must make for one long, boring, lonely shift.

 

[D6130]

Until the end of HST working on East Midlands Railway, two units were stabled overnight at Neville Hill depot for maintenance/servicing purposes. As a result, two EMR drivers and train managers based at Derby had to be taxied to Leeds in the early hours of the morning to work the through services to St Pancras....and another two sets of crew had to be taxied from Leeds back to Derby after working the corresponding down services in the evening. IIRC, there was only one train each way on Sundays though.

 

[Lewisham2221]

AFAIK the EMR crew for the first/last 2 trains of the day taxi between Crewe and Derby/Nottingham

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

This is a situation that has been made so much worse by the balkanisation of the network necessary for the multiple franchise model being used to operate our national rail system. But equally these sorts of issues are always going to exist given the distances trains travel and the obvious need to avoid an over-provision of depots and stabling points. So to answer the OP's question the answer is yes but not excessively so. Call it necessary practicality.

 

[DarloRich]

This is a situation that has been made so much worse by the balkanisation of the network necessary for the multiple franchise model being used to operate our national rail system. But equally these sorts of issues are always going to exist given the distances trains travel and the obvious need to avoid an over-provision of depots and stabling points. So to answer the OP's question the answer is yes but not excessively so. Call it necessary practicality.

Agreed - especially your last point.

 

[LowLevel]

AFAIK the EMR crew for the first/last 2 trains of the day taxi between Crewe and Derby/Nottingham

One of several issues created by the Central Trains remapping. Previously the depot at Crewe that is now LNR/WMT had limited diesel traction knowledge even after the 350s came in and worked a few trips to Derby.

Liverpool goes right back to shadow TOCs of Regional Railways when the route was allocated to Central. Various attempts have been looked at to change it but funnily enough the status quo persists as too expensive or difficult to bother changing.

 

[moonarrow458]

This thread seems to have gone down a mainly train crew focused route, but there are also a number of examples of ‘depot lottery’ creating a disjointed/imbalanced service pattern early in the morning or late at night where all the trains seem to run in one direction to get them to or from a depot, leaving the service in the opposite direction extremely sparse.

The North Wales Coastline beyond Llandudno Junction at Bangor and Holyhead exemplifies this perfectly. First eastbound departure from Holyhead towards Chester is the 0421 to Cardiff. The last Eastbound departure towards Chester in the evening is the 2031 to Crewe which gets into Chester at 2227. Incidentally on Sundays theres a later train at 2140 ex Holyhead

Meanwhile in the opposite direction Westbound along the coast the first arrival into Holyhead is at 0823 - an avanti service ex Birmingham. Whilst the last westbound along the coast (2320 ex Manchester Airport) departs Chester at 0038 getting into Holyhead at 0212. So quite poor for those wanting to head West along the coast in the evening.

Meanwhile down in the Rhymney Line in South Wales, theres numerous stabling sidings in Rhymney which leads to some odd deviations from a 1tph (plus peak extras) timetable on Monday to Saturdays. The first Southbound services from Rhymney at 0612, 0632, 0700, 0724, 0743 are all formed off of Rhymney sidings so the first arrival from the Cardiff direction is not until 0831 ex Penarth.

There is broadly an hourly service throughout the rest of the day towards Cardiff with the last train Southbound at 2116 from Rhymney. Except theres a gap of 2.5 hours in southbound services between 1727 and 2000 as 3 consecutive arrivals from Penarth go straight into the sidings to stable for the night. Presumably thats the most efficient way of organising the timetable to avoid ECS movements to/from Cardiff, although i dont if crewing arrangements on the Rhymney line also dictate this service arrangement. The line South of Bargoed retains at least a 2tph service throughout the evening btw.

 

[DaventryRabbit]

The North Wales Coastline beyond Llandudno Junction at Bangor and Holyhead exemplifies this perfectly. First eastbound departure from Holyhead towards Chester is the 0421 to Cardiff. The last Eastbound departure towards Chester in the evening is the 2031 to Crewe which gets into Chester at 2227. Incidentally on Sundays theres a later train at 2140 ex Holyhead

Meanwhile in the opposite direction Westbound along the coast the first arrival into Holyhead is at 0823 - an avanti service ex Birmingham. Whilst the last westbound along the coast (2320 ex Manchester Airport) departs Chester at 0038 getting into Holyhead at 0212. So quite poor for those wanting to head West along the coast in the evening.

Meanwhile down in the Rhymney Line in South Wales, theres numerous stabling sidings in Rhymney which leads to some odd deviations from a 1tph (plus peak extras) timetable on Monday to Saturdays. The first Southbound services from Rhymney at 0612, 0632, 0700, 0724, 0743 are all formed off of Rhymney sidings so the first arrival from the Cardiff direction is not until 0831 ex Penarth.

There is broadly an hourly service throughout the rest of the day towards Cardiff with the last train Southbound at 2116 from Rhymney. Except theres a gap of 2.5 hours in southbound services between 1727 and 2000 as 3 consecutive arrivals from Penarth go straight into the sidings to stable for the night. Presumably thats the most efficient way of organising the timetable to avoid ECS movements to/from Cardiff, although i dont if crewing arrangements on the Rhymney line also dictate this service arrangement. The line South of Bargoed retains at least a 2tph service throughout the evening btw.

Rhymney has had this oddity for some time. It was like this in 2005 when I was doing the 2 Loco Hauled Diagrams in the evening. It was quite a long fester in Rhymney after the 37 arrival for the next train back South. For anyone who has never been to Rhymney there really isn't a lot there to occupy the time! Although it wasn't too bad on a balmy Summers Evening!

 

[Efini92]

I was once told that a Liverpool driver took an early morning taxi to Holyhead, to work the first Holyhead - Euston service. No idea if that was true, or still happens.

Yeah that happened for many years.

 

[yorksrob]

Until the end of HST working on East Midlands Railway, two units were stabled overnight at Neville Hill depot for maintenance/servicing purposes. As a result, two EMR drivers and train managers based at Derby had to be taxied to Leeds in the early hours of the morning to work the through services to St Pancras....and another two sets of crew had to be taxied from Leeds back to Derby after working the corresponding down services in the evening. IIRC, there was only one train each way on Sundays though.

It was worth it so that I could travel in first class to and from Wakefield

 

[midland1]

There still is a few EMR ECS Workings Nottinghan to Liverpool, which form the early services ex Lime St through to Norwich. One leaves Nottm around 0330 I believe...

4 158 units left Nottingham at 03:30 this morning, 2 dropped off at Stockport.

 

[Wychwood93]

4 158 units left Nottingham at 03:30 this morning, 2 dropped off at Stockport.

This one: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C56114/2024-02-14/detailed#allox_id=0 with these two dropped at Stockport: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C56114/2024-02-14/detailed#allox_id=1 which then formed the: https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C55040/2024-02-14/detailed#allox_id=0

 

[6Gman]

As with so many things on the railway it's about getting the balance right and there's often no clear, obvious solution.

And, yes, sectorisation and privatised franchises made it more of an issue.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I was always amused to think that Hitchin was a fairly important train crew depot , but the nearest stock berthing sidings was at Letchworth (but not that far away)

 

[driverd]

Until the end of HST working on East Midlands Railway, two units were stabled overnight at Neville Hill depot for maintenance/servicing purposes. As a result, two EMR drivers and train managers based at Derby had to be taxied to Leeds in the early hours of the morning to work the through services to St Pancras....and another two sets of crew had to be taxied from Leeds back to Derby after working the corresponding down services in the evening. IIRC, there was only one train each way on Sundays though.

Part of the issue here was the depot allocation of this work. If there were Sheffield drivers, who could sign the road it would reduce taxi mileage significantly, but there isn't a drivers depot at Sheffield (unsure on the guard situation).

Of course, common sense would be for Leeds based XC/LNER crew to sign the route and traction and just take the train to Sheffield and be relieved, thus saving on the taxi entirely. Likely the situation under BR, but such an arrangement today would be a licence to print money for the TOC loaning the staff.

Which depot gets which work is an absolute political nightmare and invariably creates (far too) much drama from the unions - one of the many silly inflexibilities of the industry in TOCland.