Does the Marches need a thunderbird locomotive

[Gareth Marston]

Speaking to a conductor tonight who reckons freight train failures are now so common on the Marches that a rescue locomotive needs to be based at Hereford, in particular Colas seem poor though Freightliner and DB fail also.

Any thoughts?

 

[daccer]

Guess cost would be the issue and who would be picking up the bill. Using the same logic there are many secondary through routes which could command the same consideration.

One thing that might happen is the delay minutes might convince the FOC's it was worth banding together to put a thunderbird on a heavily used freight route and the lessening of delay minutes would cover the cost. The other option would be for NR to mandate they station a loco somewhere or risk paying a higher access charge. Cost will be the factor however you look at it.

 

[PHILIPE]

I was thinking exactly the same myself re a Thunderbird Loco after delays of up to 2 hours or more yesterday to passenger trains following a freight failure at Abergavenny. Suggest all Freight companies who operate the route chip in agreeing with you.

 

[ushawk]

Freight failures do seem to be happening regularly. Could one be based at Newport ?

Then it could potentially sort issues in the South Wales/Gloucestershire area too.

 

[The Planner]

Who would provide the loco and who is going to pay for it? If a DB sits down and it is a Freightliner rescue loco what is to stop the green boys charging what they like?

 

[a good off]

Rather than remove the Hereford bay platform as planned imminently, use it to stable a thunderbird loco which Network Rail would sponsor and then recoup the costs jointly from the FOCs who use the line.

 

[anthony263]

There does seem to always be one or two class 66's at Alexander Dock junction so perhaps one of them could be used if it is needed urgently and there is a driver available.

That said like many of you a loco at Hereford I do think is required and this is something ATW will most likely agree with if it helps sort out some of the problems along the route

 

[The Planner]

No one will agree to it until someone else pays for it, simple as...

 

[cymro inside]

there were two freight train failures last night,the colas loco on the Baglan Bay to Chirk failed between Abergavenny and Pontrilas and the wag was 3 hours late at Chester after single line working was implemented,rescue loco was another Colas 56 all the way from Chirk.Meanwhile at the same time a loco failure at Wellington on a freight also caused delays and the Rugby 57 thunderbird was sent to rescue it.

 

[IKBrunel]

excuse my ignorance but how does this work in other areas, is it ad hoc or are there locos & drivers available on standby?

 

[merlodlliw]

I have been in conversation with my Assembly member who was on the 1934 ATW Cardiff Holyhead service,he tells me this train arrived in the Wrexham area well after midnight & was stopped at Chester, another of his constituents on the same train reports not arriving home in Anglesey until 0400 the following morning.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Speaking to a conductor tonight who reckons freight train failures are now so common on the Marches that a rescue locomotive needs to be based at Hereford, in particular Colas seem poor though Freightliner and DB fail also.

Any thoughts?

Received this from a colleague,

From information I received this started at approx 18.30 and a period of a assessment then took place. Within 15 minutes attempts were being made to source a loco. Attempts to source road transport also started which proved to be limited but they started sending passengers by coach between Newport and Shrewsbury (in that direction only) and had ticket acceptance with other operators for passengers to travel via Cross Country (Bristol Parkway-Manchester). Approx 20.45 single line working was introduced for an hour but at 21.45 that was suspended to allow the rescue unit to attach which was successful and the freight was then on the move some 3 hours + after the incident started.

The main factor seems to be where is the rescue unit coming from? What are the arrangements for breakdowns, is one constantly on standby (unlikely) or is it having to be sourced each time? And whilst single line working was introduced is there a schedule of when this is implemented.

It would be interesting to know the statistics on breakdowns and what was involved. Are we dealing here with old, end of life locomotives which simply cannot cope?

 

[Freightmaster]

It would be interesting to know the statistics on breakdowns and what was involved. Are we dealing here with old, end of life locomotives which simply cannot cope?

AFAIK, most of the (many) loco failures on Llanvihangel bank
this year have been 66s or 70s, but the 56 failures are more
widely reported!

Freightliner seem to be the main culprit, but at least two
DB trains have also come to grief in that area...


MARK

 

[anthony263]

It does look like all the freight operators trains have had problems along the route.

If someone high up in atw's management reads this thread I wonder if perhaps they may put pressure on Network Rail etc to seriously consider this idea although if I was Network Rail I would consider it if it helps improve the reliability of this line.

I have not heard of Colas services having issue's most of the failures I have heard are those of Freightliners services in particular their class 70's

 

[The Planner]

What has it got to do with NR? it isn't our trains that are failing, the pressure needs to be put on the FOCs.

 

[Tomnick]

If someone high up in atw's management reads this thread I wonder if perhaps they may put pressure on Network Rail etc to seriously consider this idea although if I was Network Rail I would consider it if it helps improve the reliability of this line.

Once again...who pays??

 

[anthony263]

The question as to who pays maybe ATW should put pressure on Network Rail to get the FOC's to come up with something since it is not just one FOC who trains have come to grief on the Marches line.

 

[Tracky]

It is the Arriva passengers who are losing out here with delays of one, two, even up to four hours some days. Arriva are also been unfairly tarnished as passengers will always blame the company for not being able to operate the train service regardless of the reason why.

The problem, as highlighted is that three or more operators have these failing trains.

It is a shame that Shrewsbury ATW drivers do not sign the loco's as they would be ideally based to assist.

 

[Tomnick]

Indeed. Unless the cost of the additional disruption caused by the delay in sourcing an assisting loco and getting it to site exceeds the cost of providing (and continuously manning?) a standby loco, I wouldn't expect the FOCs to do anything - and I'm sure it'd be very difficult to compel them to do so.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Indeed. Unless the cost of the additional disruption caused by the delay in sourcing an assisting loco and getting it to site exceeds the cost of providing (and continuously manning?) a standby loco, I wouldn't expect the FOCs to do anything - and I'm sure it'd be very difficult to compel them to do so.

I should think FHH at least will be beating up GE for the poor reliability of their class 70s, and threatening not to order any more.
Oh wait, Colas has just ordered another 10... :cry:

 

[Lockwood]

How about this:
A) The thunderbird is provided by NR. It is paid for in a similar way to roadside recovery, £X call out, £Y/mile drag. Didn't NR do up some locos a while back specifically for rescuing passenger units?

B) The thunderbird is provided by a company with no conflict of interest, ie a corridor mostly served by DB/Freightliner would have a DRS managed thunderbird (the drivers would be from a bank of local drivers with knowledge). This stops the "I'm not dragging you, you're the wrong firm".

A sounds like less of a headache to manage.

 

[DarloRich]

The Planner and Tomnick have it spot on - Everyone will think it a good idea as long as someone else pays!

 

[TDK]

It is the Arriva passengers who are losing out here with delays of one, two, even up to four hours some days. Arriva are also been unfairly tarnished as passengers will always blame the company for not being able to operate the train service regardless of the reason why.

The problem, as highlighted is that three or more operators have these failing trains.

It is a shame that Shrewsbury ATW drivers do not sign the loco's as they would be ideally based to assist.

What locos? ATW only operate class 67's! I cannot see a class 67 being adequate to rescue a heavy freight train up the gradient in leaf fall. It isn't only the loco that will cost you also need a driver who signs traction and route. A class 66 would be ideal and based at Hereford where there are drivers available who sign the traction and route.

 

[daccer]

The joys of a mixed use privatised railway! I suppose the argument can be flipped by the FOC's who can have 2,000 tonne trains blocked by a failed DMU carrying a handful of passengers. I suppose this will always come down to money and a number cruncher somewhere will work out the correct approach. Operational considerations do seem to come second to the financial bottom line nowadays and it will be this that determines the use of assets.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The penalty regime for FOC's should be a deterrent and for TOC's - no doubt they'll all scream blue murder about it being implemented.

As things stand with all the who pays comments on this thread it would seem that there is no incentive in the regulation to aid avoiding freight trains screwing up passenger services. Essentially were back to the 20 year old problem of fragmentation and delay blame game rather than running a reliable railway.

 

[Saltleyman]

No doubt this answer has been suggested ! but here goes it is purely the consequences of privatization nothing else !
As they say" the chickens are coming home to roost" !
If the Railway was still "State owned"( publicly owned) none of this nonsense would even be mentioned!
Just shows how fickle and stupid the general public are!
Just look at the rest of Europe,how many "State " railways have been given to the "Money Grabbers",the Brits. will stand for anything,bunch of headless chickens !
At the end of the day the phrase "who pays" would be irrelevant,if it was required it would be provided

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

At the end of the day the phrase "who pays" would be irrelevant,if it was required it would be provided

And hang the cost. Big daddy (you and me) will always pay.

 

[Pacerpilot]

Its not just us FOCs that faiĺ on the Marches, it works both ways...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/88406088@N02/9446337204/in/photolist-foJWWQ-foLbhQ/lightbox/

 

[Tracky]

A class 66 would be ideal and based at Hereford where there are drivers available who sign the traction and route.

Didn't know DBS had a depot at Hereford. Even so, the issue with freight depots is having a driver on hand.

 

[Saltleyman]

And hang the cost. Big daddy (you and me) will always pay.

I agree we pay anyway,but has the amount tax payers pay been reduced by Privatization I think you will find that we contribute more ? At the same time the "franchise" owners are making profits !
It's either a privately run railway or not ? If so why are we tax payers still lining the pockets of people like Branston,and all these 'bus companies who jumped on the "band wagon" are people really that thick ?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Didn't know DBS had a depot at Hereford. Even so, the issue with freight depots is having a driver on hand.

Proves my point under the old BR system a driver would have been found ! Mainly by astute management of HR (ie flexibility of man power which went out of the window by the disaster of 1993)

 

[Gareth Marston]

BR did "railway" TOC's and FOC's do "profit"