Dominic Cummings alleged breach of lockdown rules discussion

[ashkeba]

Glad to see another person that doesn't think what he did was either all ok or all wrong. The original journey was clearly within the law. There has been no fine given (that has reached public attention) for anything remotely similar.

While not against the law, it was against the guidelines that he was one of the architects of. That is what makes his position unsustainable. Even after he discovered the guidelines impossible for him to follow, when he returned to work, he didn't seek get them amended to be workable or similar. It is no wonder that many single parents who struggled on, isolated and not near family, have taken to online media to express their rage at Dominic "do as I say not as I do" Cummings.

The lies about Barnard Castle (the two contradicting versions of the story cannot buy be true) and the claim to have driven while unfit are just icing on the cake, also much more definitely illegal.

Then there's comments that he has broken the code of special advisers by taking part in political controversy and holding a press conference about himself. Even if his law-breaking wasn't enough to be fired, must be a double breach of his job's code which should be.

 

[bspahh]

If the visit to the woods he describes on the way back from Barnard Castle is to explain his being sighted in Houghall Woods, he's lying. Barnard Castle to Durham would not take you past Houghall Woods. I know the area very well.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ngs-timeline-what-we-know-about-his-movements says the sighting at Houghall Woods was on April 19th, and Cummings said that time he was back in London.

 

[Steve1874]

This thread is to discuss the alleged breach of the lockdown rules by Dominic Cummings. He is due to give a press conference at 16.00 today. Please do not discuss this issue in any other thread.

Coronavirus: Dominic Cummings to make statement on lockdown allegations

The PM's chief aide is facing calls from the opposition and some Tory MPs to resign over claims he flouted rules.

www.bbc.co.uk

I don’t think Dominic Cummings done anything wrong and any parent worth their salt would agree if they had the same options as he had would have done the same thing

 

[BrianW]

Chris Huhne went to prison for perjury, not for speeding.

If I remember right, he had fallen out with his wife or took her for granted ...I have a feeling that Mr Cummings may be beholden to his supporters for some time now, and he must surely have been tired with all that driving.
Pleased to hear that the PM had his finger on the button during his otherwise uncertain discussions.

 

[SuperNova]

I don’t think Dominic Cummings done anything wrong and any parent worth their salt would agree if they had the same options as he had would have done the same thing

This is laughable. Any parent 'worth their salt' showing symptoms of Covid-19 would not put their child into a car for numerous hours potentially subjecting them to the virus.

And of course, Mr Cummings did have other childcare options in London - his wife's brother lives in London for gods sake.

 

[Steve1874]

This is laughable. Any parent 'worth their salt' showing symptoms of Covid-19 would not put their child into a car for numerous hours potentially subjecting them to the virus.

And of course, Mr Cummings did have other childcare options in London - his wife's brother lives in London for gods sake.

How do you know his wife’s brother does not have underlying health conditions or even other children to think about please don’t comment on his family’s position unless you know for certain

 

[baz962]

How do you know his wife’s brother does not have underlying health conditions or even other children to think about please don’t comment on his family’s position unless you know for certain

Still an utter rubbish excuse for the drive to test the eyesight . Even if you did do that , you would drive around the block , not 30 miles each way and on the wife's birthday. Yea ok sure.

 

[Esker-pades]

I don’t think Dominic Cummings done anything wrong and any parent worth their salt would agree if they had the same options as he had would have done the same thing

Yes. I'm sure my mum would also have put me in a car and driven me around to make sure that she could see properly. Top class parenting.

 

[Steve1874]

Still an utter rubbish excuse for the drive to test the eyesight . Even if you did do that , you would drive around the block , not 30 miles each way and on the wife's birthday. Yea ok sure.

Sorry but he wanted to make sure he was going to be ok to drive all the way back to London with his child in the car for gods sake you can’t tell that or even be slightly sure of that with a drive around the block

 

[Steve1874]

Yes. I'm sure my mum would also have put me in a car and driven me around to make sure that she could see properly. Top class parenting.

What????? He only had himself and his wife in the car and his wife would have been there to make sure he was ok

 

[baz962]

Sorry but he wanted to make sure he was going to be ok to drive all the way back to London with his child in the car for gods sake you can’t tell that or even be slightly sure of that with a drive around the block

He could of started the drive back to London and turned back if not sure. 30 miles is far too far , in case his eyesight went. And on his wife's birthday , what a coincidence.. not. I get you support him , but it's the biggest load of manure I have seen in a while.

 

[Chester1]

While not against the law, it was against the guidelines that he was one of the architects of. That is what makes his position unsustainable. Even after he discovered the guidelines impossible for him to follow, when he returned to work, he didn't seek get them amended to be workable or similar. It is no wonder that many single parents who struggled on, isolated and not near family, have taken to online media to express their rage at Dominic "do as I say not as I do" Cummings.

The lies about Barnard Castle (the two contradicting versions of the story cannot buy be true) and the claim to have driven while unfit are just icing on the cake, also much more definitely illegal.

Then there's comments that he has broken the code of special advisers by taking part in political controversy and holding a press conference about himself. Even if his law-breaking wasn't enough to be fired, must be a double breach of his job's code which should be.

A single parent struggling with childcare generally and a single parent with mild covid symptoms and good reason to believe they are infected are different and the latter would be in a similar position to Dominic Cummings after his wife became ill. I find it astounding that some people would be so determined to avoid any possible breach of a law that carried a £30 fine that they would put their young children at risk of being left with incapacited parent(s). I am sure some people did that but they would have never have been fined if stopped by the police on the way to stay with their sister. Some of the risks people took are a reflection of hysteria than of the law or guidelines. The latter clearly has some leeway for extenuating circumstances and child safety.

His sister in law in London may or may not have been in a position to look after his son in the event his symptoms got worse. If they have a good relationship and there were no medical reasons e.g. Someone in her household having diabetes or asthma then it would undermine his defence but we don't know their situation. As for friends helping in an emergency - that's one massive risk to ask someone to take for someone they are not related to. I'd risk getting infected for my family in an emergency , I'd like to think I'd do it for friends too but I am not sure. I doubt all of the people saying he had to stay in London are sure they would child mind a friends child and risk themselves and their family. In all liklihood he would have called 999.

Don't get me wrong, he should be fired for the Barnard Castle trip, I just find the reaction to isolating at a cottage 50m away from his sister and nieces when he was infected and his wife was ill astounding.

 

[baz962]

What????? He only had himself and his wife in the car and his wife would have been there to make sure he was ok

Er , he had his son in the car too . He even said that they stopped, so the child could go to the toilet.

 

[Steve1874]

He could of started the drive back to London and turned back if not sure. 30 miles is far too far , in case his eyesight went. And on his wife's birthday , what a coincidence.. not. I get you support him , but it's the biggest load of manure I have seen in a while.

I don’t particularly support him but I am sure before I drove with my kids in the car my wife would have said let’s go for a drive by ourselves to make sure otherwise she would have refused to get in the car with kids for a drive back to London

 

[baz962]

I don’t particularly support him but I am sure before I drove with my kids in the car my wife would have said let’s go for a drive by ourselves to make sure otherwise she would have refused to get in the car with kids for a drive back to London

They didn't go by there selves , they took the child

 

[Esker-pades]

What????? He only had himself and his wife in the car and his wife would have been there to make sure he was ok

No he didn't. That's simply not true.

Mr Cummings drives to Barnard Castle, 30 miles from his parents' home in Durham, with his wife and child. He explained this episode as needing to test his driving was fine before making the long drive back to London. He said he'd been having problems with his vision.

Dominic Cummings: Did he break lockdown rules?

The UK PM's most senior adviser has responded to accusations that he broke lockdown rules - what did he say?

www.bbc.co.uk

My emphasis.

Maybe you want him verbatum. Here's what he said at the press conference:

On Sunday the 12th of April...I decided to return to work. My wife was very worried, especially as my eyesight had been affected by the disease. She did not want to risk a nearly 300 mile drive given how ill I had been. We agreed that we should go for a short drive to see if I could drive safely. We drove for roughly half an hour and ended up on the outskirts of Barnard Castle town..... We parked by a river....we agreed that I could drive safely....We headed home. On the way home, our child needed the toilet; he was in the back seat of the car.

My emphasis.

Watch him say those words here. The timestamp is 08:47 to ~10:00.

Dominic Cummings: Full statement on lockdown row

The PM's chief adviser told a press conference he wanted to "clear up confusion" amid calls for him to resign.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[fgwrich]

I'm completely baffled as to how you can say it came across as honest when it was full of holes and lies???

I completely agree with you there. While I've been out this evening I have had the chance to catch up with it. I have, in my previous job dealt with both Criminals and Fare Evaders, and many of them have come across more convincing than Cummings did this evening. Note his body language throughout, why did he need a table, his movements, repetition and a super detailed account of his actions... almost as if the story writer is writing the story as he went along...

Does it matter if Cummings tells a lie about a day trip with his family? I think it does. He has had plenty of chances to tell the truth, apologise and move on.

One thing that really irks me regarding the situation, is just over a month ago we had an almost similar scenario in Scotland with Dr Catherine Calderwood. Not only did she resign but made a full public apology. Had Cummings had the decency to even consider doing one of those, this whole situation probably wouldn't have blown up to the level where it is at today. And going on television, to deny any wrong doing will just continue to irk the public up even more.

I also feel that, as a result of Cummings flagrant denial of any wrong doing, that the British public will now just say "Sod it" to anymore lockdown restrictions, as everything now seems to be "open to interpretation" and for xxx member of xxx's family.

However, one of my biggest concerns of this whole sorry affair is how close we are getting to swooping to the same level as American Politics. The countless facebook meme's of Boris sat on a bench with his head buried in his hands, the "Cummings Child Has Autism, How Dare You" (created by one now deleted tweet with no proof whatsoever), the "It's all the lefty romainer out baying for blood because they lost Brexit" etc... It's almost sickening to be honest.

 

[fgwrich]

Something else that has bugged me throughout this is, how infected were either of them? Cummings seems to claim that he wasn't Ill, yet his wife wrote an article in the Spectator magazine last month indicating that he did come down with it very shortly after she herself did. So again, who is lying? Her, Him, Boris?

If anything, I for one would be interested to see how this saga could / would ever be played out in a (theoretical at least) court.

 

[baz962]

I completely agree with you there. While I've been out this evening I have had the chance to catch up with it. I have, in my previous job dealt with Criminal and Fare Evaders, and many of them have come across more convincing than Cummings did this evening. Note his body language throughout, why did he need a table, his movements, repetition and a super detailed account of his actions... almost as if the story writer is writing the story as he went along...



One thing that really irks me regarding the situation, is just over a month ago we had an almost similar scenario in Scotland with Dr Catherine Calderwood. Not only did she resign but made a full public apology. Had Cummings had the decency to even consider doing one of those, this whole situation probably wouldn't have blown up to the level where it is at today. And going on television, to deny any wrong doing will just continue to irk the public up even more.

I also feel that, as a result of Cummings flagrant denial of any wrong doing, that the British public will now just say "Sod it" to anymore lockdown restrictions, as everything now seems to be "open to interpretation" and for xxx member of xxx's family.

However, one of my biggest concerns of this whole sorry affair is how close we are getting to swooping to the same level as American Politics. The countless facebook meme's of Boris sat on a bench with his head buried in his hands, the "Cummings Child Has Autism, How Dare You" (created by one now deleted tweet with no proof whatsoever), the "It's all the lefty romainer out baying for blood because they lost Brexit" etc... It's almost sickening to be honest.

Glad someone else mentioned the body language. I mentioned up thread about it. If you are telling the truth , you don't need note's. For example , your name , date of birth etc. If something is true , you know it without aide memoire. Also he spoke perfectly while reeling from his note's , but developed a very bad stammer/stutter , during questioning , which is a classic liar's tell.

 

[Steve1874]

No he didn't. That's simply not true.

Dominic Cummings: Did he break lockdown rules?

The UK PM's most senior adviser has responded to accusations that he broke lockdown rules - what did he say?

www.bbc.co.uk

My emphasis.

Maybe you want him verbatum. Here's what he said at the press conference:

My emphasis.

Watch him say those words here. The timestamp is 08:47 to ~10:00.

Dominic Cummings: Full statement on lockdown row

The PM's chief adviser told a press conference he wanted to "clear up confusion" amid calls for him to resign.

www.bbc.co.uk

Even if his son was in the car better to have a test drive first before driving all the way back and getting an hour down the road to find he has to stop but please remember by this time he was already cleared to go back to work etc

 

[Steve1874]

They didn't go by there selves , they took the child

 

[SuperNova]

Even if his son was in the car better to have a test drive first before driving all the way back and getting an hour down the road to find he has to stop but please remember by this time he was already cleared to go back to work etc

Steve, your defence in spite of all the evidence that Cummings isn't one worth their salt is bonkers. I'm glad you're not my parent.

Cummings is a liar and a hypocrite- but we already knew that. His unwillingness to do the right thing and apologise/fall on his sword when people up and down this land have given up so much in this public health crisis is appalling. People haven't been able to say goodbye to loved one or attend funerals - but if you're rich, in a position of power with great connections, like the unelected special adviser he is, you can do whatever the hell you want because nobody else matters. It makes a mockery of the governments public health advice.

And what makes this worse is a spineless PM and cabinet who continue to stick behind Dom.

 

[Steve1874]

Steve, your defence in spite of all the evidence that Cummings isn't one worth their salt is bonkers. I'm glad you're not my parent.

Cummings is a liar and a hypocrite- but we already knew that. His unwillingness to do the right thing and apologise/fall on his sword when people up and down this land have given up so much in this public health crisis is appalling. People haven't been able to say goodbye to loved one or attend funerals - but if you're rich, in a position of power with great connections, like the unelected special adviser he is, you can do whatever the hell you want because nobody else matters. It makes a mockery of the governments public health advice.

And what makes this worse is a spineless PM and cabinet who continue to stick behind Dom.

I would have to say that unless you were in his position at that particular moment you could not say what your actions would have been oh and not forgetting the fact that he wanted his family to be safe away from all the threats etc I know for certain what I would have done can you ??????

 

[Esker-pades]

Even if his son was in the car better to have a test drive first before driving all the way back and getting an hour down the road to find he has to stop but please remember by this time he was already cleared to go back to work etc

• He didn't know if he could see properly
• His wife was worried that he couldn't drive properly
• Yet, despite these concerns, he put his son in the car with them

Why are you defending this? You didn't even know his son was in the car 30 minutes ago. And now you're basically saying "how do you know if you'd had eyesight problems you wouldn't have popped your son in the car and gone for an hour's drive?"

 

[SuperNova]

I would have to say that unless you were in his position at that particular moment you could not say what your actions would have been oh and not forgetting the fact that he wanted his family to be safe away from all the threats etc I know for certain what I would have done can you ??????

So everyone should break the law/rules/guidelines if it suits then? Stuff society. Lets potentially infect others with a deadly virus to 'self-isolate' in a nice big house in the middle of nowhere cos its more convenient. Selfish.

 

[SuperNova]

• He didn't know if he could see properly
• His wife was worried that he couldn't drive properly
• Yet, despite these concerns, he put his son in the car with them

Why are you defending this? You didn't even know his son was in the car 30 minutes ago. And now you're basically saying "how do you know if you'd had eyesight problems you wouldn't have popped your son in the car and gone for an hour's drive?"

Because t suits someones political leaning I imagine.

 

[Steve1874]

• He didn't know if he could see properly
• His wife was worried that he couldn't drive properly
• Yet, despite these concerns, he put his son in the car with them

Why are you defending this? You didn't even know his son was in the car 30 minutes ago. And now you're basically saying "how do you know if you'd had eyesight problems you wouldn't have popped your son in the car and gone for an hour's drive?"

I am talking about the whole thing and I think we are spending to much time on this and losing site of bigger and more important issues it happened he has come out and said his bit on it and if you believe him or not it’s done now let’s move on and get back to more important things and leave the guy alone now and let him do his job that he is obviously good at and trusted by our PM who I might add has not long ago been backed by a very big majority of the population

 

[Steve1874]

So everyone should break the law/rules/guidelines if it suits then? Stuff society. Lets potentially infect others with a deadly virus to 'self-isolate' in a nice big house in the middle of nowhere cos its more convenient. Selfish.

In what way did he potentially infect others when he drove there without stopping

 

[Esker-pades]

I am talking about the whole thing...

Of which this action was a part. You said that he had not done anything wrong (post #153). You're still sticking to that position, and thus defending a man unsure if he could drive safely putting his son in that car.

...and I think we are spending to much time on this and losing site of bigger and more important issues...

Sort of. Of course, anything we talk about that isn't counting the corpses is good news for the government. However, senior government figures should not get away with breaking rules or acting as Mr. Cummings did.

...it happened he has come out and said his bit on it and if you believe him or not it’s done now let’s move on and get back to more important things...

If he has lied, that's important. If we don't point out the lies, then they get away with it and keep lying.

I also love how you're telling people to move on while also attempting to defend him.

...and leave the guy alone now and let him do his job that he is obviously good at...

He is the most senior advisor to a government which has overseen the largest coronavirus death toll in Europe. If that's him being "good at his job", goodness knows what you think a bad job looks like.

...and trusted by our PM who I might add has not long ago been backed by a very big majority of the population

The Conservative party got 43.4% of the vote. So, the PM was backed by a large minority of the electorate. Also, how is the electoral success of Johnson relevent when discussing the conduct of an advisor 4-6 months after said election?

 

[Steve1874]

Of which this action was a part. You said that he had not done anything wrong (post #153). You're still sticking to that position, and thus defending a man unsure if he could drive safely putting his son in that car.


Sort of. Of course, anything we talk about that isn't counting the corpses is good news for the government. However, senior government figures should not get away with breaking rules or acting as Mr. Cummings did.


If he has lied, that's important. If we don't point out the lies, then they get away with it and keep lying.

I also love how you're telling people to move on while also attempting to defend him.


He is the most senior advisor to a government which has overseen the largest coronavirus death toll in Europe. If that's him being "good at his job", goodness knows what you think a bad job looks like.



The Conservative party got 43.4% of the vote. So, the PM was backed by a large minority of the electorate. Also, how is the electoral success of Johnson relevent when discussing the conduct of an advisor 4-6 months after said election?

Oh my this is a very anti conservative forum here and I am not even political minded I was merely pointing out that to much time and energy wasted on this and that he has done a good job previously and that our PM trusts him and that this country has also put our trust in our PM my oh my have I opened up a can of worms here