Dominic Cummings alleged breach of lockdown rules discussion

[ainsworth74]

So in your opinion, the "reasonable excuse" answer does not apply here?

If you squint the trip to Durham might have a reasonable excuse. I don't think it is but I can see why some would.

It's the Barnard Castle trip which to me is where it all falls apart. Both quite possibly legal but certain within the spirit of the guidelines. I just don't see how there can be any legitimate argument that he drove for sixty miles with wife and son in the car to "test his eyesight" and "check his driving" when the same thing could have been achieved by following the same (or at least similar) test as on a driving test ("can read that number plate from 20m away please") followed by a short solo drive around the locality (i.e. staying within walking distance if he needs to stop and also avoiding any population) of where he was then living.

Meanwhile we know that it was nice day and it was his wife's birthday and Barnard Castle (even if they didn't go into town) is a rather nice part of the world and perfect for a trip out for a bit of fresh air. Again, perhaps a reasonable excuse but certainly not within the guidelines where we were all being told to exercise locally and were guidance was issued that if you do travel then the exercise must be longer than the drive to the location.

His story about why he went to Durham I don't personally believe but I can agree to disagree on that. But Barnard Castle? I'm sorry but his explanation is just poppycock.

 

[The_Train]

And you would do better, in front of television cameras and baying journalists? He is not a politician and is not used to such things. You do need notes, if for nothing else, to avoid self incrimination. I challenge you to give an account of your actions over 14 days and answer questions on your motivation for every part of it, in front of the nation, and get it all right without any notes!!!

But we are not talking notes here are we - what he had in front of him was a pre-written script which was then read word for word to the point that there were a couple of pauses where he seemed to be confused about what was next to be said.

This became apparent when, after having no issues with dates and day numbers during his statement, he became extremely confused around when 'day 14' was whilst being questioned by the journalists

 

[thejuggler]

I agree with something I read earlier. It was a solicitor's statement to a defendants 'no comment' Police interview,

 

[Bletchleyite]

Meanwhile we know that it was nice day and it was his wife's birthday and Barnard Castle (even if they didn't go into town) is a rather nice part of the world and perfect for a trip out for a bit of fresh air. Again, perhaps a reasonable excuse but certainly not within the guidelines where we were all being told to exercise locally and were guidance was issued that if you do travel then the exercise must be longer than the drive to the location.

And also, at that point, that fresh air other than exercise wasn't a reason to be out, and some Police Forces were issuing fines for e.g. sitting in a park with a book.

 

[BJames]

Oh my this is a very anti conservative forum here and I am not even political minded I was merely pointing out that to much time and energy wasted on this and that he has done a good job previously and that our PM trusts him and that this country has also put our trust in our PM my oh my have I opened up a can of worms here

Have you not seen the backlash in every paper, every social media platform? A poll on this morning said ~82% of people think Dominic Cummings should lose his post (I only just tuned in at this time so not sure where this came from, it's probably their own viewers). But even so, the Conservative's popularity and Boris's personal popularity ratings have fallen and continue to do so - it's not about who voted for who, that was well before this crisis and a fair few Conservative voters I know have already said they probably won't back them in the next election. Boris's lack of leadership here isn't winning anyone over (maybe you are an exception!).

It's important to remember that these are his rules and he broke them. That's why this is worth more of the media's time than people crowding Bournemouth beach, despite the fact that this is one person. The reason the effort is going into this is that otherwise the government will be seen to get away with "one rule for them and one rule for everyone else". But this will be why both sides are still going strong as well: if the government do back down, it's yet another catastrophic u-turn for them (herd immunity, NHS surcharge etc) - but they need to accept now that they need to do their best to regain the trust of the general public, or any advice given in the future will be quite simply ignored.

 

[Esker-pades]

Keir Starmer:

Keir Starmer on Twitter

“The Prime Minister has treated the British people with contempt. One rule for Dominic Cummings, another for everybody else. https://t.co/XIFCztZnbu”

twitter.com

Nicola Sturgeon:

Nicola Sturgeon on Twitter

“I know it is tough to lose a trusted adviser at the height of crisis, but when it’s a choice of that or integrity of vital public health advice, the latter must come first. That’s the judgment I and, to her credit, Catherine Calderwood reached. PM and Cummings should do likewise.”

twitter.com

Lib Dems (don't think they have a leader at the mo):

Liberal Democrats on Twitter

“Dominic Cummings has shown that these sacrifices by millions of people don’t matter to him. His refusal to have the decency to apologise is an insult to us all. It reveals the worst of his elitist arrogance. Cummings must go. https://t.co/xXF5hGowIk”

twitter.com

SDLP and Alliance:

SDLP and Alliance call on Prime Minister to remove aide Cummings over his 264-mile trip

SDLP leader Colum Eastwood has called on the Prime Minister to sack Dominic Cummings and prove that "the privileged Tory elite" are not unaccountable.

www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk

None of the above were particularly hard to find with just a quick Google.

Ed Davey is the acting leader of the Lib Dems at the moment. He went on BBC News yesterday to say the normal "Cummings should go" stuff.

They all are in the end, neither Labour, LibDems, SNP, Plaid Cymru nor is the Conservatives can claim to be the paragon of virtue.

Memory is short and limited when you have a political axe to grind that in the heat of righteous rage they forget their own errors of judgements, glass houses and stones comes to mind.

Not relevant here.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Whilst I believe Cummings' actions were wrong and his explanation weak, I find the media reaction to be wildly over the top. Let's face it, it's not what Dominic Cummings has done which has upset the left wing media, it's who Dominic Cummings is. Had Jerremy Corbyn done the same thing, exactly the same papers would be defending him to the hilt and moaning about a smear campaign by the right-wing media.

There's lots of positive news right now; rapidly falling infection rates, schools reopening, shops to follow in a couple of weeks. These should be the headline stories, not a man going for a drive well over a month ago!

 

[Djgr]

Whilst I believe Cummings' actions were wrong and his explanation weak, I find the media reaction to be wildly over the top. Let's face it, it's not what Dominic Cummings has done which has upset the left wing media, it's who Dominic Cummings is. Had Jerremy Corbyn done the same thing, exactly the same papers would be defending him to the hilt and moaning about a smear campaign by the right-wing media.

There's lots of positive news right now; rapidly falling infection rates, schools reopening, shops to follow in a couple of weeks. These should be the headline stories, not a man going for a drive well over a month ago!

I think you have absolutely misread the mood of the country and to downplay his actions in the way you are doing is frankly offensive.

 

[RT4038]

But we are not talking notes here are we - what he had in front of him was a pre-written script which was then read word for word to the point that there were a couple of pauses where he seemed to be confused about what was next to be said.

This became apparent when, after having no issues with dates and day numbers during his statement, he became extremely confused around when 'day 14' was whilst being questioned by the journalists

Oh, so if you stumble on any question then you must be guilty! Are his eyes too close together too? Of course his notes were neatly typed up - he was giving a carefully prepared statement, to be followed by hostile questioning by top journalists, not a fireside chat. If you're not used to this sort of thing (as a politician would be) of course you will get confused and stumble.
Dominic Cummings is going to get a hard time because of his past attitude to journalists and MPs. Serve him right. But he is still a human being, and all of us do not think through how every action that they take will look with hindsight. If we want a culture of honesty and openness and humility then we need, as a society, to get away from the blame game. If you admit to making a mistake then you are to blame, and where there is blame there is a claim. Small wonder no-one is going to make that admission in the first place unless really forced to.

 

[BJames]

Whilst I believe Cummings' actions were wrong and his explanation weak, I find the media reaction to be wildly over the top. Let's face it, it's not what Dominic Cummings has done which has upset the left wing media, it's who Dominic Cummings is. Had Jerremy Corbyn done the same thing, exactly the same papers would be defending him to the hilt and moaning about a smear campaign by the right-wing media.

There's lots of positive news right now; rapidly falling infection rates, schools reopening, shops to follow in a couple of weeks. These should be the headline stories, not a man going for a drive well over a month ago!

Not necessarily. Calderwood and Ferguson's resignations show that this a point of where they are in the grand scheme of things. Making rules and not sticking to them is why this is still gaining traction as we speak.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not necessarily. Calderwood and Ferguson's resignations show that this a point of where they are in the grand scheme of things. Making rules and not sticking to them is why this is still gaining traction as we speak.

Precisely. A general member of the public doing this probably just needed a talking to and perhaps a £60 FPN. Cummings was instrumental in making the rules then ignoring them.

 

[ainsworth74]

Let's face it, it's not what Dominic Cummings has done which has upset the left wing media, it's who Dominic Cummings is. Had Jerremy Corbyn done the same thing, exactly the same papers would be defending him to the hilt and moaning about a smear campaign by the right-wing media.

The "left wing media" in this case includes the Daily Mail I take it? They've not exactly been singing his praises and indeed their front page yesterday morning was pretty on the nose...

 

[BJames]

Oh, so if you stumble on any question then you must be guilty! Are his eyes too close together too? Of course his notes were neatly typed up - he was giving a carefully prepared statement, to be followed by hostile questioning by top journalists, not a fireside chat. If you're not used to this sort of thing (as a politician would be) of course you will get confused and stumble.
Dominic Cummings is going to get a hard time because of his past attitude to journalists and MPs. Serve him right. But he is still a human being, and all of us do not think through how every action that they take will look with hindsight. If we want a culture of honesty and openness and humility then we need, as a society, to get away from the blame game. If you admit to making a mistake then you are to blame, and where there is blame there is a claim. Small wonder no-one is going to make that admission in the first place unless really forced to.

I must admit the notes thing isn't really an issue for me, I'm sure he wanted to get what he was saying right. But (and it's a big but) that doesn't make what he was saying right or honest. You speak about hindsight - he's not giving any. He's still justifying something which most of the country says is wrong. What makes this one man right and everyone else wrong?

 

[Western Sunset]

It boils down to personal choice. Mr C chose to do the thing right (in his eyes) whereas the majority of the country believed they had to do the right thing, for the good of society as a whole.
Also, they were told that the message "STAY HOME" was an instruction, not a request. It's not a party political thing, it's just that Mr C was an architect of that message. He chose to ignore it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The "left wing media" in this case includes the Daily Mail I take it? They've not exactly been singing his praises and indeed their front page yesterday morning was pretty on the nose...

The Torygraph has also had its (not very complimentary) say.

 

[underbank]

I think you have absolutely misread the mood of the country and to downplay his actions in the way you are doing is frankly offensive.

No I think it's just the usual social media echo chamber. Just the same way people genuinely believed Corbyn could win the election. Social media ISN'T representative of the wider population. I've spoken to about a dozen people this morning, including a builder, a cake maker, a business consultant, a GP and a garage mechanic. We briefly discussed coronavirus and not one of them even mention Dominic. Over the weekend I've not spoken to anyone in real life who gives a toss about him.

 

[BJames]

It boils down to personal choice. Mr C chose to do the thing right (in his eyes) whereas the majority of the country believed they had to do the right thing, for the good of society as a whole.
Also, they were told that the message "STAY HOME" was an instruction, not a request. It's not a party political thing, it's just that Mr C was an architect of that message. He chose to ignore it.

This is an interesting thing for me as well. Why Boris Johnson decided to go with the "people need to make their own minds up" line is beyond me - they've made their minds up, he needs to go. He seems to think he can just brush it off with his usual bluster, but it's quite clear that it won't work this time.

 

[BJames]

No I think it's just the usual social media echo chamber. Just the same way people genuinely believed Corbyn could win the election. Social media ISN'T representative of the wider population. I've spoken to about a dozen people this morning, including a builder, a cake maker, a business consultant, a GP and a garage mechanic. We briefly discussed coronavirus and not one of them even mention Dominic. Over the weekend I've not spoken to anyone in real life who gives a toss about him.

It's interesting because I've found the exact opposite. Although there are some getting tired of the story, they're getting tired of the fact that the government are still backing it, not that the media are still pressing for the right resolution.

 

[underbank]

It boils down to personal choice. Mr C chose to do the thing right (in his eyes) whereas the majority of the country believed they had to do the right thing, for the good of society as a whole.
Also, they were told that the message "STAY HOME" was an instruction, not a request. It's not a party political thing, it's just that Mr C was an architect of that message. He chose to ignore it.

If the sheeple had actually read the official guidance on Gov.uk website, they'd have known what the guidance actually said.

Unfortunately, at the time, the media badly mis-reported that guidance, which also led to businesses closing when they didn't have to etc.

 

[Spamcan81]

Sorry but he wanted to make sure he was going to be ok to drive all the way back to London with his child in the car for gods sake you can’t tell that or even be slightly sure of that with a drive around the block

if you have any doubts about your fitness to drive, you don’t take the car out for a spin just to find out one way or the other.

 

[westv]

The "left wing media" in this case includes the Daily Mail I take it? They've not exactly been singing his praises and indeed their front page yesterday morning was pretty on the nose...

The media love a feeding frenzy - left or right they are both the same in that respect.

 

[baz962]

Oh, so if you stumble on any question then you must be guilty! Are his eyes too close together too? Of course his notes were neatly typed up - he was giving a carefully prepared statement, to be followed by hostile questioning by top journalists, not a fireside chat. If you're not used to this sort of thing (as a politician would be) of course you will get confused and stumble.
Dominic Cummings is going to get a hard time because of his past attitude to journalists and MPs. Serve him right. But he is still a human being, and all of us do not think through how every action that they take will look with hindsight. If we want a culture of honesty and openness and humility then we need, as a society, to get away from the blame game. If you admit to making a mistake then you are to blame, and where there is blame there is a claim. Small wonder no-one is going to make that admission in the first place unless really forced to.

If we want a culture of openness and honesty , he should of admitted it and apologised . I can accept a mistake or mis judgement , but I refuse to accept a them and us rule and an I'm untouchable rule.

 

[NeilCr]

Durham police advice before the weekend of the Barnard Castle journey

Police are asking motorists to respect government advice

www.durham.police.uk

 

[philosopher]

This is an interesting thing for me as well. Why Boris Johnson decided to go with the "people need to make their own minds up" line is beyond me - they've made their minds up, he needs to go. He seems to think he can just brush it off with his usual bluster, but it's quite clear that it won't work this time.

There is polling from ComRes here:
https://savanta.com/coronavirus-data-tracker/
The polling shows a clear drop in support for Boris Johnson, his overall rating has turned negative for the first time since this begun.

 

[Mogster]

Mr Cummings did, in his eyes, the thing right for his family.
Fortunately, the country as a whole did the right thing by sticking to the message that the government and its advisors (including said Mr Cummings) were clearly putting out. And this message was not merely guidance, but an instruction. You must STAY AT HOME. Obviously, if your house was burning down or some other danger, then you could leave. Also for certain prescribed reasons which were clearly stated. If you needed child care, then get help locally from a friend or relative. If you knew nobody, the local council would help via their hub system.
Mr Cummings decided to ignore all this, whilst others made great sacrifices for the greater good of us all.

I’d imagine childcare is a much greater issue when your 4 year old is autistic. I think he could justify relocating his family to Durham and the fact the police talked to the family and went away happy seems to back this up. The day out to Barnard Castle was stupid, he should have apologized for that and said he drove further than was necessary. He doesn’t appear to have broken the distancing rules, unlike the media outside his home who were probably trying to wind him up as he apparently reminds them to distance when he interacts with them.

I do wonder how much travel the rest of the Westminster circus has been doing in the last 6 months. Glass houses and all.

 

[Djgr]

No I think it's just the usual social media echo chamber. Just the same way people genuinely believed Corbyn could win the election. Social media ISN'T representative of the wider population. I've spoken to about a dozen people this morning, including a builder, a cake maker, a business consultant, a GP and a garage mechanic. We briefly discussed coronavirus and not one of them even mention Dominic. Over the weekend I've not spoken to anyone in real life who gives a toss about him.

Well except that Boris' approval ratings have fallen 20% since the weekend (and presumably not due to the half of the country who always knew this would be a circus)

 

[Western Sunset]

I don't know whether Mr Cumming's son is on the autistic spectrum or not. What I do know, having worked in an autistic spectrum unit, is that generally (and I appreciate that everyone is an individual) those with that condition prefer set routines and their familiar surroundings with people they know.

 

[RT4038]

If we want a culture of openness and honesty , he should of admitted it and apologised . I can accept a mistake or mis judgement , but I refuse to accept a them and us rule and an I'm untouchable rule.

You might accept a mistake or misjudgement, but many more wouldn't, so what would be the point. Everything is so toxic - dislike of lockdown rules, brexit, envy, politics. Yuk!

 

[Domh245]

If the sheeple had actually read the official guidance on Gov.uk website, they'd have known what the guidance actually said.

Here's the advice from the time on what do if you actually display symptoms: http://web.archive.org/web/20200328...-with-possible-coronavirus-covid-19-infection

Some key bits of note:

• if you live alone and you have symptoms of coronavirus illness (COVID-19), however mild, stay at home for 7 days from when your symptoms started. (The ending isolation section below has more information)
• if you live with others and you are the first in the household to have symptoms of coronavirus, then you must stay at home for 7 days, but all other household members who remain well must stay at home and not leave the house for 14 days. The 14-day period starts from the day when the first person in the house became ill. See the explanatory diagram
• for anyone else in the household who starts displaying symptoms, they need to stay at home for 7 days from when the symptoms appeared, regardless of what day they are on in the original 14 day isolation period. The ending isolation section below has more information, and see the explanatory diagram
• it is likely that people living within a household will infect each other or be infected already. Staying at home for 14 days will greatly reduce the overall amount of infection the household could pass on to others in the community
• if you can, move any vulnerable individuals (such as the elderly and those with underlying health conditions) out of your home, to stay with friends or family for the duration of the home isolation period
• if you cannot move vulnerable people out of your home, stay away from them as much as possible

...
If you live with others and you or one of them have symptoms that may be caused by coronavirus, then household members must stay at home and not leave your house for 14 days (more information in the ending self-isolation section below). If possible, you should not go out even to buy food or other essentials, other than exercise, and in that case at a safe distance from others. The 14-day period starts from the day when the first person in your house became ill.
...
You and all household members should remain at home. Do not go to work, school, or public areas, and do not use public transport or taxis.

If possible, you should not go out even to buy food or other essentials, other than exercise, and in that case at a safe distance from others. The 14-day period starts from the day the first person in your house became ill.

If you require help with buying groceries, other shopping or picking up medication, or walking a dog, you will need to ask friends or relatives. Alternatively, you can order medication by phone or online. You can also order your shopping online. Make sure you tell delivery drivers to leave items outside for collection if you order online. The delivery driver should not come into your home.

There's also the page on social distancing here: http://web.archive.org/web/20200327...dance-on-staying-at-home-and-away-from-others

Quite how you can take any of that and use it to justify his actions, I don't know

 

[RT4038]

I must admit the notes thing isn't really an issue for me, I'm sure he wanted to get what he was saying right. But (and it's a big but) that doesn't make what he was saying right or honest. You speak about hindsight - he's not giving any. He's still justifying something which most of the country says is wrong. What makes this one man right and everyone else wrong?

There are plenty of things that I think are right but which most of the country might think are wrong! Most maybe, but not the 'everyone' that you suddenly changed to.
I agree, it doesn't make what he is saying right or honest, but nor does it say that he is wrong or dishonest.