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Donald Trump and the aftermath of his presidency

Busaholic

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That doesn’t seem to matter any more to many people: whether Gorsuch is one of these I do not know. The end justifies the means.

Several recent members of the Supreme Court seem to have been nominated because they are the sort of people who are unusually likely to interpret law to fit their personal beliefs. No longer are they impartial and above such matters.
Well, quite, and their personal beliefs could be said to follow whatever nonsense Trump is spewing out at any one time. In any case, would any of them countenance facing the fury and death threats that would follow should they rule against Trump? If the innocuous Mike Pence could attract such threats by merely refusing to declare Trump won last time, imagine the reaction to this.

Just heard the Colorado decision is going to the Supreme.
 
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brad465

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The incident seems to have out hypocrisy among many of his supporters, including trying to criticise the 14th amendment while also being ones who blindly demand the 2nd amendment is respected, and claiming voters should decide whether he be President or not, not courts, despite the fact voters did decide in 2020 and he repeatedly tried to sham the result, and not just through the Jan 6th events.
 

DerekC

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It's really a pity that Colorado did this, because Trump is going to gain from it either way. If the Supreme Court rules against him (which I think is very unlikely) he will use it to scream even louder than it's the Biden administration that's a threatening democracy because they are scared and won't let the people vote for the man they want. If he wins, he will use that to whitewash every action he has taken in relation to the 2020 election result, claiming that the Supreme Court has found him spotless. And the number who believe his every word will go on increasing whatever happens.

I really do fear the worst for 2024. He did it once and he can do it again - and he is growing more extreme all the time. Read some of his stuff on immigrants.
 

Acfb

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I'm just as concerned by the prospect (if not more) of Nikki Haley becoming president as I am by Trump being president again. Trump would be probably worse if he were to become president again as he will try and settle scores etc (even if there was some 'crying wolf' from CNN/MSNBC during his previous presidency with stuff like the Muller Report).

I think there is a case for banning him from running for the presidency now but the process seems quite messy with regard to individual states vs the supreme court.

Colorado is academic either way as Biden is 100% certain to win it unlike Arizona/Nevada/Georgia/Michigan/Pennsylvania/Wisconsin.
 

najaB

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If the Supreme Court rules against him (which I think is very unlikely) he will use it to scream even louder than it's the Biden administration that's a threatening democracy because they are scared and won't let the people vote for the man they want
Given that he appointed three of the justices and Biden appointed one, that'll be an interesting argument to make.
 

najaB

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Since when did Trump (or his avid supporters) worry about logical argument?
True. But the faithful (on either side) believe what they already believe, it's the moderates and undecideds that need to be convinced, because they're the ones who make the difference.
 

brad465

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Here comes another one:


Maine's top election official has ruled that Donald Trump cannot run for president next year in the state, citing a constitutional insurrection clause.
Secretary of State Shenna Bellows said Mr Trump was not eligible because of his actions leading up to the US Capitol riot in 2021.
Maine now joins Colorado as the two states to ban Mr Trump from the ballot.
Both decisions are likely to face appeals in court.
The 34-page ruling says that Mr Trump must be removed from the ballot because he "engaged in insurrection or rebellion".
In her order, Mrs Bellows says that Mr Trump "over the course of several months and culminating on January 6, 2021, used a false narrative of election fraud to inflame his supporters and direct them to the Capitol".
She added that his "occasional requests that rioters be peaceful and support law enforcement do not immunize his actions".
 

Smidster

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Ultimately it should be the voters who decide - and given the results of pretty much every election since 2018 I would suggest they would be very very unlikely to elect Mr Trump again and I think it would be incredibly unlikely that he even wins the nominating contest.

The latest ruling out of Maine is troubling given it is based on the decision of a single elected official - Over the last couple of years I have heard an awful lot about all of the terrible things that GOP Secretaries of State might do come election time (e.g. not certifying results) so not great to see a Democratic SoS acting in such a manner.
 

bahnause

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Ultimately it should be the voters who decide - and given the results of pretty much every election since 2018 I would suggest they would be very very unlikely to elect Mr Trump again and I think it would be incredibly unlikely that he even wins the nominating contest.
The law sets out certain requirements as to who can stand for election. Either all of these requirements must be observed, or none. Should voters also be able to vote for someone who was not born in the USA and is under 35? If yes, the law has to be changed, not ignored.
 

brad465

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If Trump had said everything he said on Jan 6th but as a foreigner outside the US, he'd be refused entry to the US. But because he was President with a huge cult following spurred on by a oligarch-run media, he's running again and attempts to ignore a centuries-old constitution are encouraged.
 

najaB

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Ultimately it should be the voters who decide - and given the results of pretty much every election since 2018 I would suggest they would be very very unlikely to elect Mr Trump again and I think it would be incredibly unlikely that he even wins the nominating contest.
But, he needs to meet the requirements in order to be eligible to stand as a candidate.
The latest ruling out of Maine is troubling given it is based on the decision of a single elected official - Over the last couple of years I have heard an awful lot about all of the terrible things that GOP Secretaries of State might do come election time (e.g. not certifying results) so not great to see a Democratic SoS acting in such a manner.
She didn't just decide to exclude him on a whim. Maine law required that she conduct a hearing as a result of objections raised by voters. There were two challenges raised: that his claim to have won the 2020 election made him ineligible due to term limits, and that the 14th Amendment amendment made him ineligible. The first challenge was rejected, but the second one was upheld since, as with the Colorado supreme court decision, it was taken as a matter of fact (rather than opinion) that he has given - and continues to give - aid and comfort to people who have been convicted of Sedition. The only question is if they were engaged in an insurrection - and a number of courts have said that they were.
 

DerekC

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Ultimately it should be the voters who decide - and given the results of pretty much every election since 2018 I would suggest they would be very very unlikely to elect Mr Trump again and I think it would be incredibly unlikely that he even wins the nominating contest.

The latest ruling out of Maine is troubling given it is based on the decision of a single elected official - Over the last couple of years I have heard an awful lot about all of the terrible things that GOP Secretaries of State might do come election time (e.g. not certifying results) so not great to see a Democratic SoS acting in such a manner.
What the Maine SoS has done, however, is to suspend implementation of her ruling until the Trumpist appeal to the Maine Supreme Court has been heard - which seems fair. The problem is that the larger the number of Democratic states that disqualify him, the bigger the splash it will make when the US Supreme Court rules in his favour (as it surely will). He will say that it proves his innocence and that of his supporters on all charges linked to the 6th January 2021 attack, and proves that it's all a Democratic plot to keep him from the presidency that is rightfully his.

Every time a Democratic led institution tries to apply the law to Trump, he just uses it to fire up the smokescreen around his own incompetence and inability. He is better left to sink himself. His adoption of increasingly extreme points of view, if left without that smokescreen, is surely enough to put off most sensible undecided voters.
 

najaB

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…the bigger the splash it will make when the US Supreme Court rules in his favour (as it surely will).
I'm less convinced that it will. As I noted above, appointments to the Court are for life so Trump has nothing he can hold over them now. In fact, it's in their best interests that Trump fades from view as soon as possible since they know that loyalty only goes one way in Trump-land.
 

Cowley

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I'm less convinced that it will. As I noted above, appointments to the Court are for life so Trump has nothing he can hold over them now. In fact, it's in their best interests that Trump fades from view as soon as possible since they know that loyalty only goes one way in Trump-land.

This is what I’ve been wondering about too. Does he have a degree of misplaced confidence that because he appointed some of them they’ll automatically rule in his favour?
 

JamesT

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This is what I’ve been wondering about too. Does he have a degree of misplaced confidence that because he appointed some of them they’ll automatically rule in his favour?
Does he need to rely on personal loyalty? Or just know that from previous decisions (e.g. the overturning of Roe v. Wade) that the majority would likely interpret in a suitably narrow fashion where he would win. For example, Trump hasn’t actually been convicted of insurrection by a court, so ruling that it makes him ineligible could be considered premature.
 

bahnause

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This is what I’ve been wondering about too. Does he have a degree of misplaced confidence that because he appointed some of them they’ll automatically rule in his favour?
After his candidates lied at the hearings to obtain the appointment and the following bribery scandals, questions about the integrity of the court can and should be asked.
 

najaB

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For example, Trump hasn’t actually been convicted of insurrection by a court, so ruling that it makes him ineligible could be considered premature.
He doesn't need to be. He only needs to have "given aid and comfort" to those who did.

His repeated claims during November and December 2020 that the election was "stolen", his instruction to "fight like hell" before the Capitol was stormed, his inactivity during the storming, and his repeated references to the protesters as "hostages" and "political prisoners" counts as aid and comfort to me.
 
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DerekC

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I'm less convinced that it will. As I noted above, appointments to the Court are for life so Trump has nothing he can hold over them now. In fact, it's in their best interests that Trump fades from view as soon as possible since they know that loyalty only goes one way in Trump-land.
I doubt they would be motivated much by personal loyalty to Trump. But remember that they were picked for their ultra-conservative views and they will regard boosting the chances of a Republican being returned in 2024 as the right thing to do. If Trump is more likely than others to defeat Biden, then find an argument for keeping him as a candidate. I hope I am wrong - I think! If he is prevented from standing, will Trump call his army out onto the streets to fight the Democrat oppressors?
 

ainsworth74

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His repeated claims during November and December 2029 that the election was "stolen", his instruction to "fight like hell" before the Capitol was stormed, his inactivity during the storming, and his repeated references to the protesters as "hostages" and "political prisoners" counts as aid and comfort to me.
2029!? What on earth happens between now and then to throw the Presidential election cycle out by a year?! Also could you check next weeks lottery numbers for me?
 

jon0844

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I'm less convinced that it will. As I noted above, appointments to the Court are for life so Trump has nothing he can hold over them now. In fact, it's in their best interests that Trump fades from view as soon as possible since they know that loyalty only goes one way in Trump-land.

Agreed. They don't need to worry in the same way every other Republican seems to, seemingly being terrified of crossing Trump.

They must all be secretly hoping that Trump goes down, or just dies, so they can be freed from the curse (which really means being attacked by the MAGA crowd or having secrets revealed etc).

At most, unless Trump decides to become a dictator for longer than 24 hours, he has four more years. Then what? The MAGA movement is Trump, not the Republican party.

They must know that if they want to be relevant beyond the election after next, MAGA needs to die. They really do need to do this now, but they do seem too scared to stand up.



Also, didn't Trump also say he'd pardon many people (perhaps all of them?) who were jailed for storming the building if he got back in?
 
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Senex

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Then what? The MAGA movement is Trump, not the Republican party.
Is there anything left now of the Republican Party that is not made up of Trump synpathisers?

Will Trump's legacy — even if it does prove possible to keep him from office again — prove to be the destruction (or at the very least the enfeebling for many years) of one of the parties of a two-party system and the utter discrediting of a once great and distinguished body, the Supreme Court of the United States?
 

nlogax

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Is there anything left now of the Republican Party that is not made up of Trump synpathisers?
They've either gone full MAGA, dabbled with the Never Trump movement or just retired / gone onto other things. The lunatic genie has been released from the bottle and the GOP as-was is unlikely to be resuscitated. I feel there are some very dark days ahead for American politics and the country in general.
 

MP33

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Watching the film of a hearing where two Senators are discussing having a fight. The chair, Bernie Sanders is banging his hammer and trying to bring the meeting to order. He is no doubt thinking. Am I the only sane one in the Senate.
 

Purple Train

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They've either gone full MAGA, dabbled with the Never Trump movement or just retired / gone onto other things. The lunatic genie has been released from the bottle and the GOP as-was is unlikely to be resuscitated. I feel there are some very dark days ahead for American politics and the country in general.
The trouble is that among the "lunatics" and full-on conspiracy theorists, there are some otherwise moderately sensible people (people who don't believe the whole electoral fraud nonsense) who simply believe that all politicians are bad but Trump isn't a politician, he's just funny and charismatic (the same type who voted for Boris).

The only thing they all share in common is an obsession with Hunter Biden's laptop.
 

ainsworth74

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Is there anything left now of the Republican Party that is not made up of Trump synpathisers?
I think there is but the remainder are cowards who are too scared of their own base to actually say anything and certainly not do anything. I have a feeling that a reasonable (if not majority) of the current batch sitting in the House of Representatives and the Senate would love nothing more than for Trump to go away and never darken their door again so they can get back to usual. But they dare not say anything out of turn because they value their position and the influence and stature it brings far more than they value the damage to their country (and potentially the world) remaining silent could bring.

That being said I think the Republican base is a lost cause. They've gone completely off the reservation. Which is increasingly infecting the state level which is the really frightening part. State level politicas has always been somewhat more crackers but the Trump types are far more prevalent at that level and wield serious power. We got lucky in 2020 in part because even where Republican's were responsible for overseeing the elections for the most part they valued their Constitutional role more than their loyalty to Trump. See people like Brad Raffensperger, the recipient of the "I just want to find 11,780 votes" phone call from Trump, a Republican (who was thankfully re-elected) who played a critical role in ensuring the integrity of the election in Georgia. But since 2020 I'm not so sure that's as true as it was.
 

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