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Doncaster Sheffield Airport to reopen?

thenorthern

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John Whittaker, owner of Peel Holdings, lives here in tax exile. What I would like to say about him is almost certainly libellous, but let's just say he didn't get to live in a £30M mansion by not knowing how to manipulate a situation.

I would argue there are too many regional airports, though. DSA, like Teesside, is stuck between two catchment areas that are already served by better airports. Being honest, East Mids, Leeds and Newcastle are more than sufficient for the catchment area, and even East Mids mostly makes its money off freight.

The walking lobotomy Ben Houchen is just wasting taxpayers money keeping Teesside on life support after Whittaker walked away with a big fat cheque. He was clearly angling for the same at DSA; sensibly the councils didn't bite.

Doncaster and Teesside also seem to rely solely on passenger traffic which fluctuates a lot. East Midlands chose to go down the cargo route as well as passengers which is very lucrative for the airport.
 
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island

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Blimey, thanks for that. It's ridiculous, you'd think that such solutions would cut down massively on the costs for security in terms of labour.
The unions wouldn't like that.
One other thing that I've noticed recently: the type of scanners used in Dublin and Tallinn are incredibly inefficient. Anywhere between 25-50% of bags seem to be pulled aside for a secondary check, which just causes huge amounts of people to wait around while their bag is inspected in front of them.
In Dublin's case, this isn't inefficiency of the scanners, but failures of the staff. They failed an EU security audit earlier this year and as punishment must hand search an increased proportion of cabin bags. For how long I can't say.
 

Bantamzen

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I saw on Facebook earlier that Wizzair will be launching a load of routes to Central/East European from Leeds Bradford, so there must still be a market to serve from the area.
Yeah, routes have been announced for Gdansk, Katowice, Krakow, Warsaw Chopin, Wroclaw, Bucharest, & Cluj Napoca with varying frequencies but on average 2 a week. It remains to see if they can make a go of them, but the area does have a sizeable Eastern European population so they could be popular.
 

LWB

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There is a thread on the Skyscraper city Leeds forum covering LBIA but obviously the Doncaster closure gets mention. One determined poster has been flogging the same pitch for years now and comes across as somewhat manic but his basic premise has some sense to it I think. He argues that LBA abstracts traffic from other airports in Yorkshire and yet by virtue of its location and road/rail infrastructure (or lack of it) will never grow to approach the likes of Manchester etc. Unfortunately the ‘ideal’ location for an airport in the flat lands of the old West Riding was an opportunity that passed around the end of WW2.
 

Cloud Strife

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In Dublin's case, this isn't inefficiency of the scanners, but failures of the staff. They failed an EU security audit earlier this year and as punishment must hand search an increased proportion of cabin bags. For how long I can't say.

So they're being pulled manually aside regardless of what the scanners detect? That explains the infuriating wait!

Yeah, routes have been announced for Gdansk, Katowice, Krakow, Warsaw Chopin, Wroclaw, Bucharest, & Cluj Napoca with varying frequencies but on average 2 a week. It remains to see if they can make a go of them, but the area does have a sizeable Eastern European population so they could be popular.

I wouldn't be surprised if the regional Polish routes get dropped quickly, with the exception of Kraków and possibly Warsaw. The Polish government are hell bent on killing the regional airports with huge landing fees, ridiculous navigation charges and generally doing everything to discourage use of those airports.
 

WestCoast

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There is a thread on the Skyscraper city Leeds forum covering LBIA but obviously the Doncaster closure gets mention. One determined poster has been flogging the same pitch for years now and comes across as somewhat manic but his basic premise has some sense to it I think. He argues that LBA abstracts traffic from other airports in Yorkshire and yet by virtue of its location and road/rail infrastructure (or lack of it) will never grow to approach the likes of Manchester etc. Unfortunately the ‘ideal’ location for an airport in the flat lands of the old West Riding was an opportunity that passed around the end of WW2.

I have only flown a couple of times from Leeds Bradford but it never struck me as particularly well connected compared to other Northern English airports like Manchester or even Liverpool. The access reminds me of Bristol with lots of people driving in via fairly minor roads.

If you’re driving from the Sheffield area, would East Midlands probably be the easiest to reach with the closure of DSA? I guess Manchester is easiest by rail.
 

Bantamzen

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I have only flown a couple of times from Leeds Bradford but it never struck me as particularly well connected compared to other Northern English airports like Manchester or even Liverpool. The access reminds me of Bristol with lots of people driving in via fairly minor roads.
Its true that LBA doesn't have good public transport connections, although options around that are starting to be explored.

If you’re driving from the Sheffield area, would East Midlands probably be the easiest to reach with the closure of DSA? I guess Manchester is easiest by rail.
Quite honestly even with Doncaster people from Sheffield were probably more likely to go to Manchester than there. This was one of the biggest flaws of DSA, it just wasn't it the right place to serve the majority of the population in the region, stuck on the far side of Doncaster. It was never going to be viable.

There is a thread on the Skyscraper city Leeds forum covering LBIA but obviously the Doncaster closure gets mention. One determined poster has been flogging the same pitch for years now and comes across as somewhat manic but his basic premise has some sense to it I think. He argues that LBA abstracts traffic from other airports in Yorkshire and yet by virtue of its location and road/rail infrastructure (or lack of it) will never grow to approach the likes of Manchester etc. Unfortunately the ‘ideal’ location for an airport in the flat lands of the old West Riding was an opportunity that passed around the end of WW2.
That wouldn't happen to be the Church Fenton, erm Leeds East International fan would it? They are so deluded they wouldn't even have a chance on the speculation threads on this forum!!
 

LWB

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Its true that LBA doesn't have good public transport connections, although options around that are starting to be explored.


Quite honestly even with Doncaster people from Sheffield were probably more likely to go to Manchester than there. This was one of the biggest flaws of DSA, it just wasn't it the right place to serve the majority of the population in the region, stuck on the far side of Doncaster. It was never going to be viable.


That wouldn't happen to be the Church Fenton, erm Leeds East International fan would it? They are so deluded they wouldn't even have a chance on the speculation threads on this forum!!
Indeed it would
 

Killingworth

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Indeed it would

I 'found' Leeds East by accident when looking at Church Fenton station recently. No major roads nearby but only a mile from the station. Like DSA too far from the core West Riding.
 
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island

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So they're being pulled manually aside regardless of what the scanners detect? That explains the infuriating wait!
Correct. Not sure of the precise mechanics, but I think it's in a similar fashion to the walk-through metal detectors alarming for a passenger with no metal on, which they do for a quota of passengers. The quota for bags has in this case been hiked up.
 

Cloud Strife

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Correct. Not sure of the precise mechanics, but I think it's in a similar fashion to the walk-through metal detectors alarming for a passenger with no metal on, which they do for a quota of passengers. The quota for bags has in this case been hiked up.

Thanks, that explains a lot about the delays last week and why they weren't digging through people's bags, but only doing a hand scan with some kind of wand after opening them.

The metal detectors going off has never bothered me (unlike one chap who evidently had too much to drink at 3am in Stansted once!), but the situation with the cases was infuriating. I was cheery and polite to the lady checking though, because you could see that she had been getting a lot of abuse from people.
 

AlterEgo

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I have only flown a couple of times from Leeds Bradford but it never struck me as particularly well connected compared to other Northern English airports like Manchester or even Liverpool. The access reminds me of Bristol with lots of people driving in via fairly minor roads.

If you’re driving from the Sheffield area, would East Midlands probably be the easiest to reach with the closure of DSA? I guess Manchester is easiest by rail.
LBA is also hamstrung by its location. It’s on the top of a windy plateau with its runway oriented perpendicular to the prevailing wind direction. The opportunities to expand are limited and as you say it’s not especially well-connected.
 

matacaster

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LBA is also hamstrung by its location. It’s on the top of a windy plateau with its runway oriented perpendicular to the prevailing wind direction. The opportunities to expand are limited and as you say it’s not especially well-connected.
It also suffers from fog and eye-watering parking charges. All transport links are risible including car!
 

Bantamzen

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LBA is also hamstrung by its location. It’s on the top of a windy plateau with its runway oriented perpendicular to the prevailing wind direction. The opportunities to expand are limited and as you say it’s not especially well-connected.
You say hamstrung by it's location, but it is still considerably closer to the large population centres in West Yorkshire than Doncaster was for South Yorkshire. And with Jet2 being based there it was never going to be under threat from DSA, which was just in the wrong place being too close to already established airports.
 

IanXC

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I 'found' Leeds East by accident when looking at Church Fenton station recently. No major roads nearby but only a mile from the station. Like DSA too far from the core West Riding.

Bradford to Church Fenton and Bradford to Leeds Bradford Airport are both around 40 minutes...

The accident of history is that it was the Metropolitan Counties that could influence airport development. In particular South and West Yorkshire were never going to cooperate, and if they did they were never going to agree on a site in North Yorkshire, even if that had good transport links and a excellent aviation operating environment.

If that had all been overcome then I see no reason why an Airport at the ex RAF Church Fenton site couldn't have mopped up the activity currently seen at Leeds Bradford, Doncaster Sheffield, Humberside, Teesside and some of Newcastle, and as such why it wouldn't have ended up being comparable to Manchester. But that ship sailed many years ago.
 

Bantamzen

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Bradford to Church Fenton and Bradford to Leeds Bradford Airport are both around 40 minutes...

The accident of history is that it was the Metropolitan Counties that could influence airport development. In particular South and West Yorkshire were never going to cooperate, and if they did they were never going to agree on a site in North Yorkshire, even if that had good transport links and a excellent aviation operating environment.

If that had all been overcome then I see no reason why an Airport at the ex RAF Church Fenton site couldn't have mopped up the activity currently seen at Leeds Bradford, Doncaster Sheffield, Humberside, Teesside and some of Newcastle, and as such why it wouldn't have ended up being comparable to Manchester. But that ship sailed many years ago.
Well for a starter, RAF Church Fenton didn't close until 2013, by which time Leeds Bradford had been established as a passenger airport for decades. Secondly, as pointed already there is very little in the way of access to it, less than LBA as far as roads go. So to build a brand new airport, all the road infrastructure and convince all the airlines to move there would have been widely expensive even in 2013. And also keep in mind that at this point a Leeds East airport would have been in more direct competition with DSA, which ironically could have meant the latter taking over as Yorkshire's primary airport and Church Fenton failing.

But it is all a moot point, there will likely never be a Leeds East International, LBA may not have the most ideal location but it is well used and there are plans to extend the terminal & aspirations to improve accessibility, both of which will come in at a fraction of the cost of building a whole new airport and all the infrastructure it would need.
 

cactustwirly

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You say hamstrung by it's location, but it is still considerably closer to the large population centres in West Yorkshire than Doncaster was for South Yorkshire. And with Jet2 being based there it was never going to be under threat from DSA, which was just in the wrong place being too close to already established airports.

Jet2 is still a small airline, only operating bucket and spade flights from smaller regional airports.
The only major airports they operate from is Manchester and Stansted.
They're not really competition to anyone except maybe TUI.

The only major airline LBA has is Ryanair.

Manchester has a major easyJet presence and some long haul flights, so will always be the focal airport of the north.
 

Neptune

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Jet2 is still a small airline, only operating bucket and spade flights from smaller regional airports.
Really? I must have dreamt it when I flew with Jet2 from LBA to Paris, Budapest, Düsseldorf, Barcelona, Krakow and New York.

I’ll admit I’ve done the Canaries and the Costas with them several times too.

Always found them to be excellent.
 

Bantamzen

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Jet2 is still a small airline, only operating bucket and spade flights from smaller regional airports.
The only major airports they operate from is Manchester and Stansted.
They're not really competition to anyone except maybe TUI.

The only major airline LBA has is Ryanair.

Manchester has a major easyJet presence and some long haul flights, so will always be the focal airport of the north.
Here's another really?

Jet2 currently have 104 craft on their books, with up to 60 more to come and currently only 15 planned retirements, flying to 70 destinations from 10 UK airports and in 2019 flew 14.9 million punters. And with the exception of a handful of years, including pandemic ones, they have consistently grown and have a load factor that keeps around the 90% mark. Hardly a tiddler of an airline.

Jet2 Details - Wikipedia

That they mainly focus on holiday destinations (the bucket and spade description is so 1980s) is a shrewd business strategy, they fly where people want to go using a fairly standardised fleet (currently 737s but will become a mix of 737 and A321neo). Its not a dissimilar model to Ryanair, and look where they are, flying to destinations where they know they can grow business effectively whilst keeping operating costs under control. Yes they only have a very limited long haul portfolio, with a handful for NY flights around Christmas using their 757s (and presumably in the future the A321neos if they decide to keep those holiday routes open), but so what? Ryanair is hardly known for it's trans-Atlantic routes.

Finally, and before we veer way too far off topic, nobody is suggesting that LBA would ever take over from Manchester as the focal airport in the region. But it, along with LBAs longstanding passenger presence was always going to be a challenge for Doncaster, one which sadly proved fatal for them.
 

cactustwirly

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Here's another really?

Jet2 currently have 104 craft on their books, with up to 60 more to come and currently only 15 planned retirements, flying to 70 destinations from 10 UK airports and in 2019 flew 14.9 million punters. And with the exception of a handful of years, including pandemic ones, they have consistently grown and have a load factor that keeps around the 90% mark. Hardly a tiddler of an airline.

Jet2 Details - Wikipedia

That they mainly focus on holiday destinations (the bucket and spade description is so 1980s) is a shrewd business strategy, they fly where people want to go using a fairly standardised fleet (currently 737s but will become a mix of 737 and A321neo). Its not a dissimilar model to Ryanair, and look where they are, flying to destinations where they know they can grow business effectively whilst keeping operating costs under control. Yes they only have a very limited long haul portfolio, with a handful for NY flights around Christmas using their 757s (and presumably in the future the A321neos if they decide to keep those holiday routes open), but so what? Ryanair is hardly known for it's trans-Atlantic routes.

Finally, and before we veer way too far off topic, nobody is suggesting that LBA would ever take over from Manchester as the focal airport in the region. But it, along with LBAs longstanding passenger presence was always going to be a challenge for Doncaster, one which sadly proved fatal for them.

They don't fly from London, and are nowhere near the size of easyJet or British Airways....


LBA is hardly a big airport, it only has 23 stands and no jet bridges? Not sure how big DSA were, but we're not talking about major airports here.

I suspect the vast majority of people would use Manchester, as it has significantly more flights and destinations, it's also a hub for the biggest UK airline (easyJet)

When I've been abroad I have never seen Jet2 flights, let alone any flights to LBA.
Maybe I visit different destinations to Jet2, ie city breaks rather than bucket and spade to Spain etc.
 

Norm_D_Ploom

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They don't fly from London, and are nowhere near the size of easyJet or British Airways....


LBA is hardly a big airport, it only has 23 stands and no jet bridges? Not sure how big DSA were, but we're not talking about major airports here.

I suspect the vast majority of people would use Manchester, as it has significantly more flights and destinations, it's also a hub for the biggest UK airline (easyJet)

When I've been abroad I have never seen Jet2 flights, let alone any flights to LBA.
Maybe I visit different destinations to Jet2, ie city breaks rather than bucket and spade to Spain etc.
Sorry but I need chuck my twopeneth in here.
I live in Calderdale and as such LBA and MAG are pretty much equidistant in fact MAG is probably quicker in terms of travel time.
However, nobody who has regularly used LBA and MAG would choose to fly from Manchester because the passenger experience at LBA is significantly better.
 

Neptune

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They don't fly from London, and are nowhere near the size of easyJet or British Airways....
Is that your measure of an airline? You do know that not everyone lives in London and the SE and that those of us who do use Jet2 are grateful that they fly where us undesirable regional types want to go.
LBA is hardly a big airport, it only has 23 stands and no jet bridges? Not sure how big DSA were, but we're not talking about major airports here.
Yes it has a jet bridge but again, how is that a measure of how important an airport is. It’s hardly an issue walking to a plane and climbing the steps and those that can’t book assistance.
I suspect the vast majority of people would use Manchester, as it has significantly more flights and destinations, it's also a hub for the biggest UK airline (easyJet)
If you can actually provide the figures for this then super, if not, don’t assume. LBA isn’t necessarily the backwater you’d evidently like to think it is. I live under the flightpath and it’s extremely busy everyday at all times.
When I've been abroad I have never seen Jet2 flights, let alone any flights to LBA.
Maybe I visit different destinations to Jet2, ie city breaks rather than bucket and spade to Spain etc.
I see you ignored what I put about the city breaks in post #78.

This all just sounds like an anti-jet2 anti-UK regions rant. Pretty sad really.
 

cactustwirly

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While this may be true, they are the 3rd biggest UK airline by number of passengers flown.

I didn't realize, I thought that was TUI...

Is that your measure of an airline? You do know that not everyone lives in London and the SE and that those of us who do use Jet2 are grateful that they fly where us undesirable regional types want to go.

Yes it has a jet bridge but again, how is that a measure of how important an airport is. It’s hardly an issue walking to a plane and climbing the steps and those that can’t book assistance.

If you can actually provide the figures for this then super, if not, don’t assume. LBA isn’t necessarily the backwater you’d evidently like to think it is. I live under the flightpath and it’s extremely busy everyday at all times.

I see you ignored what I put about the city breaks in post #78.

This all just sounds like an anti-jet2 anti-UK regions rant. Pretty sad really.

Well in terms of importance yes, London is by far the biggest market for air travel and the 2 busiest airports are in London...

Not having airbridges paints the picture of a small regional airport.

The last time I walked out from the terminal was in Austria, flying to a regional airport like Salzburg which is only really used for Ski holidays...
Hardly a major international airport.

I get that it is convenient for people who live in Yorkshire but it's never going to be a major UK airport.
 
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Bantamzen

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They don't fly from London, and are nowhere near the size of easyJet or British Airways....
Did I say they were? Please go back and read what I said about Jet2's statistics and how it demonstrates both growth and business sense.

LBA is hardly a big airport, it only has 23 stands and no jet bridges? Not sure how big DSA were, but we're not talking about major airports here.
Again, nobody is saying they are compared to London airports or Manchester.

I suspect the vast majority of people would use Manchester, as it has significantly more flights and destinations, it's also a hub for the biggest UK airline (easyJet)
Prior to the pandemic LBA was handling well in excess of 4 million passengers & growing with aspirations of over 7 million in the coming years, and having flown from there many times I can confirm that not everyone does use Manchester. Not the 30 or so million Manchester handles by any means, but as with Jet2 LBA was getting to be more popular with passengers, not less.

When I've been abroad I have never seen Jet2 flights, let alone any flights to LBA.
Well that's it decided then. Because you haven't seen them. Can I assume you spend the majority of your days monitoring flights to various destinations?

Maybe I visit different destinations to Jet2, ie city breaks rather than bucket and spade to Spain etc.
Ye gods did you even bother reading anything that I put? I thought I made it quite clear that Jet2's primary business is the holiday one, unsurprising when you consider the fact that the same group has brands called 'Jet2 Holidays' & 'Jet2 City Breaks'. I wonder what services they provide, and what airline they use?

As others have said, this is starting to feel like a 'I don't like LBA / Jet2' response, which is way off topic. Maybe if you feel strongly enough about it you could create a separate thread to discuss?
 

Tetchytyke

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Getting back to the point, DSA airport had LBA and East Midlands as nearby long-established short haul competitors, and Manchester over the hill for longer-haul stuff. It was only going to succeed by charging low ground handing fees- which attracted WizzAir- and hoping to build a base from there. Before Covid it might have worked, but probably not.

I'd put it in the same category as Teesside- again sandwiched between Newcastle and LBA for short-haul (plus the Emirates flight) stuff. And Teesside is only surviving because Ben Houchen's tipping taxpayer cash into it like there's no tomorrow.

LBA is reasonably well situated for Leeds and Bradford- the two cities it serves, after all- as well as York, but it isn't going to compete with Manchester for long-haul. Nothing wrong with picking a market and sticking to it.

The last time I walked out from the terminal was in Austria, flying to a regional airport like Salzburg which is only really used for Ski holidays...

That's more of a sign of the airline than the airport. Other than IOM, the last two times I walked to the plane were at Berlin Brandenburg (BA CityFlyer) and London Gatwick (EasyJet).
 

roversfan2001

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That's more of a sign of the airline than the airport. Other than IOM, the last two times I walked to the plane were at Berlin Brandenburg (BA CityFlyer) and London Gatwick (EasyJet).
This. I've flown out of Manchester 15 times and only used an airbridge twice, when I've flown with TUI and KLM. Every time I've flown with easyJet and Ryanair I've boarded via stairs. Manchester certainly isn't a small regional airport.
 

BoroAndy

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I 'found' Leeds East by accident when looking at Church Fenton station recently. No major roads nearby but only a mile from the station. Like DSA too far from the core West Riding.
May be too far from core west yorks, but perfect for North, east, south yorks and Hull. Hope Truss is telling the truth and will save it, Leeds is past its best.
 

Killingworth

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May be too far from core west yorks, but perfect for North, east, south yorks and Hull. Hope Truss is telling the truth and will save it, Leeds is past its best.

Humberside Airport used to serve Hull but has been squeezed by DSA. It will be interesting to see if it can reclaim any of the displaced traffic.

I'd hardly call Church Fenton perfect for Sheffield but it suffers from all the same issues as the other smaller airports. They were built as RAF miltary ajrfields 80+ years ago and relatively recently released. East Midlands has been civilian since 1965 so has a big start.

If Truss has money to spend on transport in the north she could save a lot of bus routes for the cost of saving DSA.
 

Bantamzen

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May be too far from core west yorks, but perfect for North, east, south yorks and Hull. Hope Truss is telling the truth and will save it, Leeds is past its best.
If by Leeds you mean LBA, in the not too distant future work should hopefully start on a terminal expansion & improvement. Whilst plans for a brand new terminal further north on the site have been rejected, the original plans to expand remain in place. So that should start to solve some of those problems for BA.

As for Truss saving DSA, how is she going to convince more airlines to use it? Because that is the crux of the matter, there just wasn't the passenger demand for it. That won't change just because of a political desire for it not to close. Airports are insanely expensive places to run, and to even break even they have to have punters flowing through it, spending lots of dosh as well as airlines paying plenty for those slots. Neither was happening anywhere near enough at DSA.
 

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