Door Opening and Door Closing procedures on Guard operated trains.

[swt class 450]

I'm just interested what are the door opening and door closing procedures on different Guard operated trains?

There seems to be 3 methods.

method a. The Guard opens and closes the doors using the panel.

method b. The Driver open the doors and then the Guard closes the doors using the panel.

method c. The Driver opens the doors and then the Driver closes the doors after getting three buzzers from the Guard.

Which are used as follows.

Abellio Greater Anglia
• ????

Abellio Merseyrail
• ????

Abellio Scotrail.
• ????

Abellio Stansted Express
• ????

Arriva Chiltern Railways
• ????

Arriva Cross Country
• class 170 - method a. - The Guard opens and closes the doors using the panel.
• class 220 / class 221 - method c. - The Driver opens the doors and then the Driver closes the doors after getting three buzzers from the Guard.

Arriva Grand Central
• ????

Arriva Northern Rail
• ????

Arriva Trains Wales
• ????

First Great Western Railway
• class 143 / class 150 / class 153 / class 158 / class 180 ????
• class 165 / class 166 - method c. - The Driver opens the doors and then the Driver closes the doors after getting three buzzers from the Guard.

First Hull Trains
• ????

First Trans Pennine Express
• ???? (i think method a. is used on all trains?)

• Go Ahead (Govia) Gatwick Express
• All DOO

Go Ahead (Govia) Great Northern
• All DOO.

Go Ahead (Govia) London Midland
• all trains (139 / 150 / 153 / 170 / 172 / 319 / 323 / 350) - method a. - The Guard opens and closes the doors using the panel. (not 100% sure on the 319 / 323?)

Go Ahead (Govia) Southeastern.
• class 375 / class 465 / class 466 - method b. - The Driver opens the doors and then the Guard closes the doors using panel. (I think that all class 376 are DOO?)

Go Ahead (Govia) Southern.
• class 171 (London Bridge - Uckfield) - method a. - The Guard opens and closes the doors using the panel.
• class 171 (Brighton - Ashford International) / class 313 class 377 / class 455 - method b. - The Driver opens the doors and then the Guard closes the doors using panel.

Go Ahead (Govia) Thameslink
• All DOO.

Heathrow Connect
• All DOO.

Heathrow Express
• All DOO.

MTR London Overground
• All DOO.

MTR TFL Rail
• All DOO

National Express C2C
• ???? (I think only the 12 coach trains have a Guard using method c.?)

Serco Caledonian Sleeper
• ????

Stagecoach East Midlands Trains
• ????

Stagecoach Island Line
• class 483 - method a. - Guard opens and closes the doors using the panel.

Stagecoach South West Trains
• all trains (158 / 159 / 444 / 450 / 455 / 456 / 458) - method a. - Guard opens and closes the doors using the panel.

Stagecoach Virgin East Coast
• ????

Stagecoach Virgin West Coast
• class 221 / class 390 - method c. - The Driver opens the doors and then the Driver closes the doors after getting three buzzers from the Guard.

If anyone can confirm the door opening and door closing procedures for different types of trains and different operators that would be really interesting to hear.

 

[craigybagel]

I've answered as many as I can in bold

I'm just interested what are the door opening and door closing procedures on different Guard operated trains?

There seems to be 3 methods.

method a. The Guard opens and closes the doors using the panel.

method b. The Driver open the doors and then the Guard closes the doors using the panel.

method c. The Driver opens the doors and then the Driver closes the doors after getting three buzzers from the Guard.

Which are used as follows.

Abellio Greater Anglia
• ????

Abellio Merseyrail
• A

Abellio Scotrail.
• A, except for DOO routes

Abellio Stansted Express
• DOO

Arriva Chiltern Railways
• C, except for loco hauled stock and presumably also 121 which are A, and DOO areas ,

Arriva Cross Country
• class 170 - method a. - The Guard opens and closes the doors using the panel.
• class 220 / class 221 - method c. - The Driver opens the doors and then the Driver closes the doors after getting three buzzers from the Guard.

Arriva Grand Central
• ????

Arriva Northern Rail
• A

Arriva Trains Wales
• A

First Great Western Railway
• class 143 / class 150 / class 153 / class 158 / class 180 ???? A, except 180s which I believe are B
• class 165 / class 166 - method c. - The Driver opens the doors and then the Driver closes the doors after getting three buzzers from the Guard.

First Hull Trains
• ????

First Trans Pennine Express
• ???? (i think method a. is used on all trains?)

• Go Ahead (Govia) Gatwick Express
• All DOO

Go Ahead (Govia) Great Northern
• All DOO.

Go Ahead (Govia) London Midland
• all trains (139 / 150 / 153 / 170 / 172 / 319 / 323 / 350) - method a. - The Guard opens and closes the doors using the panel. (not 100% sure on the 319 / 323?)

Go Ahead (Govia) Southeastern.
• class 375 / class 465 / class 466 - method b. - The Driver opens the doors and then the Guard closes the doors using panel. (I think that all class 376 are DOO?)

Go Ahead (Govia) Southern.
• class 171 (London Bridge - Uckfield) - method a. - The Guard opens and closes the doors using the panel.
• class 171 (Brighton - Ashford International) / class 313 class 377 / class 455 - method b. - The Driver opens the doors and then the Guard closes the doors using panel.

Go Ahead (Govia) Thameslink
• All DOO.

Heathrow Connect
• All DOO.

Heathrow Express
• All DOO.

MTR London Overground
• All DOO.

MTR TFL Rail
• All DOO

National Express C2C
• ???? (I think only the 12 coach trains have a Guard using method c.?)

Serco Caledonian Sleeper
• A

Stagecoach East Midlands Trains
A

Stagecoach Island Line
• class 483 - method a. - Guard opens and closes the doors using the panel.

Stagecoach South West Trains
• all trains (158 / 159 / 444 / 450 / 455 / 456 / 458) - method a. - Guard opens and closes the doors using the panel.

Stagecoach Virgin East Coast
•
A
Stagecoach Virgin West Coast
• class 221 / class 390 - method c. - The Driver opens the doors and then the Driver closes the doors after getting three buzzers from the Guard.
Not quite, 221s are C, 390s are B
.

 

[Welshman]

As a supplementary-

I've never understood why on a Virgin Voyager, the guard/Train Manager has to request the driver to close on the doors.

This seems to prolong the procedure, and, surely, the guard/Train Manager has a better view of the platform at the crucial time of departure.

 

[M7R]

As a supplementary-

I've never understood why on a Virgin Voyager, the guard/Train Manager has to request the driver to close on the doors.

This seems to prolong the procedure, and, surely, the guard/Train Manager has a better view of the platform at the crucial time of departure.

The class 220/221 and I believe 222 on EMT are all set up for driver door control, so the driver opens the doors and then closes them when the guard gives the signal to the driver to close them, I don't believe any door controls are provided at the guard panels,

 

[Bungle965]

The class 220/221 and I believe 222 on EMT are all set up for driver door control, so the driver opens the doors and then closes them when the guard gives the signal to the driver to close them, I don't believe any door controls are provided at the guard panels,

I`m surprised that the unions did not kick off about that when they were introduced!
Sam

 

[Welshman]

The class 220/221 and I believe 222 on EMT are all set up for driver door control, so the driver opens the doors and then closes them when the guard gives the signal to the driver to close them, I don't believe any door controls are provided at the guard panels,

So it's not a matter of policy - rather the guard does not have the ability to operate the doors.
I didn't realise that.
Thank you.

 

[Clansman]

Scotrail: A, I don't know if it's policy but guards aren't allowed to operate the doors via the back cab unless it's either an intermediate station or if the train is running late. After, 2 buzzes are given and returned to the driver and of to the back cab they go.

 

[380101]

Scotrail: A, I don't know if it's policy but guards aren't allowed to operate the doors via the back cab unless it's either an intermediate station or if the train is running late. After, 2 buzzes are given and returned to the driver and of to the back cab they go.

The only trains they could work from the back cab are 170 and 380 units. lack of a step on the cab doors is said to be one of the reasons for not working out the back cab. I guess at some point a guard fell between platform and train when working from the rear cab.

 

[greaterwest]

I have seen SWT guards control the doors from a middle/rear cab on a 450 many times.

 

[whoosh]

East Midlands Trains is 'A' for ex-Central Trains services, and HSTs.

On Meridians it's is the Driver selects which side the doors are to be opened using a switch, then selects how many coaches are to be opened (a manual form of SDO), then pushes a button to release the Guard's panel. The Guard then opens and closes the doors.

When Midland Mainline had class 170s, the Driver used to open the doors, and the guard closed them.

 

[tsr]

Incorrect regarding Class 455s on Southern. On the few services where conductors work that stock, the doors are both opened and closed by the conductor. SDO is only by locking out doors manually, per local instructions. The driver has pretty much no control over the doors when a conductor has their key active - in fact, they don't even give bell codes in response!

 

[Crossover]

I'm not sure if GC 180s are driver release. I'm fairly sure the 180's with Northern had to modified to allow guard operation (due to Union issues)

HSTs at GC will almost certainly be a.

 

[swt_passenger]

I have seen SWT guards control the doors from a middle/rear cab on a 450 many times.

They had to use intermediate cabs for unit deselect before the ASDO was fitted, since then there should be much less need to work from the cabs.

 

[CatfordCat]

on SWT, at peak times at least, I'm not sure it would be practical for a guard to try and work from a doorway shared with passengers. The only times I'm aware of a guard (on a 450 on the Reading line) working from 'inside' is towards the remote end of the line...

 

[swt class 450]

Thanks everyone for your replies and corrections. Its interesting to see how different train operators (and different types) use different methods.

With Southern is there any reason why the 171s on the London Bridge - Uckfield line use method a but the 171s on the Brighton - Ashford International line (and all 313s / 377s) use method b? I wasnt quite sure how the 455s worked as only a few of the 455 workings have Guards.

SWT 450s have a very useful good design as the Guard can open and close the doors from panels at any set of doors or in any drivers cab (except the front cab of course).

Out of these 3 methods does anyone think there is one that works best? Personally i would say method a (Guard opening and closing doors using panel) makes the most sense.

 

[TheEdge]

Greater Anglia, as far as I know (don't sign 321s and 360s but I don't think its any different) its method A all the time on all stock.

 

[ComUtoR]

Are you using "panel" as a generic term for any local panel either inside the train or where the Guard dispatches from the Cab ?

When the Guard closes the doors do they always give two on the bell to the Driver ?

Cheers

 

[theironroad]

East Midlands Trains is 'A' for ex-Central Trains services, and HSTs.

On Meridians it's is the Driver selects which side the doors are to be opened using a switch, then selects how many coaches are to be opened (a manual form of SDO), then pushes a button to release the Guard's panel. The Guard then opens and closes the doors.

When Midland Mainline had class 170s, the Driver used to open the doors, and the guard closed them.

That meridian procedure sounds like hard work, lucky they don't stop much.

 

[LowLevel]

That meridian procedure sounds like hard work, lucky they don't stop much.

It's not too bad. The driver as far as I remember pre-selects the appropriate number of carriages, only needing to change for short platforms.

There was a problem a few years back where if the driver and then guard released the doors quickly, the whole train might not release correctly (usually leaving the back few carriages locked). This was largely resolved by adding a short delay to the door release.

 

[tsr]

With Southern is there any reason why the 171s on the London Bridge - Uckfield line use method a but the 171s on the Brighton - Ashford International line (and all 313s / 377s) use method b? I wasnt quite sure how the 455s worked as only a few of the 455 workings have Guards.

There most certainly is. With 171s the Door Deselect for short platforms (basically SDO) works by selecting either:

1. The front coach only for door release, with the driver's key or conductor's desk key on, and the deselect button pushed at any panel in the front coach

OR

2. Any number of coaches for door release, from the coach where the conductor's key is active in a cab / at a panel, through to the coach with the cab which has the driver's key on

(If any coach can have doors released, either the conductor or driver can open the doors without worrying about door deselect, hence why a conductor can open the doors from any panel if the station does not have short platforms)

On the Marshlink, worked by Eastbourne crews, the only Door Deselect operation usually required is for the front coach due to the very short platforms. Therefore the driver can carry out this procedure as part of the normal door release, as they can simply push the Door Deselect button and only release doors for their coach.

On the Uckfield Line, and by extension those Class 171 services worked by Selhurst conductors / Norwood drivers elsewhere, the Door Deselect operation is required to be used for more than one coach; all platforms are at least 3 coaches in length. This means the conductor must release the doors with their key active in the rearmost coach. (Doors can be released from a cab if that is in the appropriate coach, as all cabs obviously have Deselect buttons; all doors on the selected side will open, too, so it doesn't matter if the panel is not at the rearmost set of doors in the coach.) The driver cannot deselect doors further back than the front coach so the conductor must deselect and release. By extension, this applies to all stations with or without short platforms, for consistency. Norwood drivers do not release Class 171 doors in passenger service in accordance with local rules.

Are you using "panel" as a generic term for any local panel either inside the train or where the Guard dispatches from the Cab ?

When the Guard closes the doors do they always give two on the bell to the Driver ?

Cheers

I was hoping not to have to be pedantic about the terminology. I think for the purpose of this thread, barring what I have said above for clarity, "panel" should refer to all guards'/conductors' door controls. I sign stock where they are called "stewards' panels", "desks", "conductors' panels" and "guards' panels" so it gets a bit varied at times!

As for giving two on the bell, it's 1-2 to close doors, 2 for right away, etc. etc. etc. The ready to start can also be given by green flag/light, in some places by a clear understanding being reached by telephone (note that the Competency Standards at some TOCs technically forbid this), or in some areas with walkie talkies (eg. various WCRC services).

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for giving two on the bell, it's 1-2 to close doors, 2 for right away, etc. etc. etc. The ready to start can also be given by green flag/light, in some places by a clear understanding being reached by telephone (note that the Competency Standards at some TOCs technically forbid this), or in some areas with walkie talkies (eg. various WCRC services).

Many years ago I saw it done on a Pacer in the North West by the guard opening the driver's door and saying "buzz buzz". Yes, really

I think the driver returned it on the actual buzzer.

 

[ComUtoR]

I was hoping not to have to be pedantic about the terminology. I think for the purpose of this thread, barring what I have said above for clarity, "panel" should refer to all guards'/conductors' door controls. I sign stock where they are called "stewards' panels", "desks", "conductors' panels" and "guards' panels" so it gets a bit varied at times!

No problem. I was asking for clarity purposes. As you posted above, there are many differences in how the train is dispatched. I found the term "panel" to be a little misleading as the stock I sign is listed above and I would certainly differentiate between the Guard dispatching from inside the unit with a local panel and them using in cab driver door controls.

 

[swt_passenger]

on SWT, at peak times at least, I'm not sure it would be practical for a guard to try and work from a doorway shared with passengers. The only times I'm aware of a guard (on a 450 on the Reading line) working from 'inside' is towards the remote end of the line...

I don't think the Reading services are typical. AIUI they still use non-commercial guards with no revenue duties who don't need to go in the saloon. Main line services always seem to be operated from the doors in my experience - at least towards Southampton...

 

[Crossover]

As for giving two on the bell, it's 1-2 to close doors, 2 for right away, etc. etc. etc. The ready to start can also be given by green flag/light, in some places by a clear understanding being reached by telephone (note that the Competency Standards at some TOCs technically forbid this), or in some areas with walkie talkies (eg. various WCRC services).

What I found interesting the other day was that on the Up Highland Sleeper from Fort William, the despatch was done with a green flag to Helensburgh. When we departed Dumbarton, it was with an LED unit (it was dark by then) instead of the flag

 

[greaterwest]

They had to use intermediate cabs for unit deselect before the ASDO was fitted, since then there should be much less need to work from the cabs.

I still see it happen a fair amount, even since ASDO was fitted.

 

[sarahj]

Tut tut, 2 is not right away, it's 'ready to start'. It's up to the driver to then move off.

Addition. Gat Ex. 442's. Between Gatwick and Brighton, if they stop at any intermediate stations, and the 442's from Eastbourne to London Bridge. Driver opens, Conductor closes. SDO. Either 5 or 10 coaches will open. So a platform that can cope with 8 on a 377, will only get 5 opening on a 442. (eg Hampden Park).

 

[Bromley boy]

Tut tut, 2 is not right away, it's 'ready to start'. It's up to the driver to then move off.

Pretty sure "ready to start" is the new term for "right away" and the two are interchangeable? Certainly, my TOC treats two on the bell the same as a platform RA indication. Platform duties complete, driver can take power (in practice driver would check for the interlock light, although platform staff should not give a platform RA if any BIL lights are illuminated).

One minor distinction is that the platform RA indication cannot be given against a red signal due to interlocking, therefore the signal needs to be checked where 2 on the bell is given by a guard, but it's treated very seriously if a guard gives 2 on the bell against a red.

 

[sarahj]

Pretty sure "ready to start" is the new term for "right away" and the two are interchangeable? Certainly, my TOC treats two on the bell the same as a platform RA indication. Platform duties complete, driver can take power (in practice driver would check for the interlock light, although platform staff should not give a platform RA if any BIL lights are illuminated).

One minor distinction is that the platform RA indication cannot be given against a red signal due to interlocking, therefore the signal needs to be checked where 2 on the bell is given by a guard, but it's treated very seriously if a guard gives 2 on the bell against a red.

A few years ago some dispatch person at Gatwick tried to give me the tip on a red. I refused to take it, even folding my arms. He got quite irate and went to push the Cd button. As he was doing this a train zoomed by though platform 5 (we were on 6). Never saw them again.

 

[RichardKing]

There most certainly is. With 171s the Door Deselect for short platforms (basically SDO) works by selecting either:

1. The front coach only for door release, with the driver's key or conductor's desk key on, and the deselect button pushed at any panel in the front coach

OR

2. Any number of coaches for door release, from the coach where the conductor's key is active in a cab / at a panel, through to the coach with the cab which has the driver's key on

(If any coach can have doors released, either the conductor or driver can open the doors without worrying about door deselect, hence why a conductor can open the doors from any panel if the station does not have short platforms)

On the Marshlink, worked by Eastbourne crews, the only Door Deselect operation usually required is for the front coach due to the very short platforms. Therefore the driver can carry out this procedure as part of the normal door release, as they can simply push the Door Deselect button and only release doors for their coach.

On the Uckfield Line, and by extension those Class 171 services worked by Selhurst conductors / Norwood drivers elsewhere, the Door Deselect operation is required to be used for more than one coach; all platforms are at least 3 coaches in length. This means the conductor must release the doors with their key active in the rearmost coach. (Doors can be released from a cab if that is in the appropriate coach, as all cabs obviously have Deselect buttons; all doors on the selected side will open, too, so it doesn't matter if the panel is not at the rearmost set of doors in the coach.) The driver cannot deselect doors further back than the front coach so the conductor must deselect and release. By extension, this applies to all stations with or without short platforms, for consistency. Norwood drivers do not release Class 171 doors in passenger service in accordance with local rules.



I was hoping not to have to be pedantic about the terminology. I think for the purpose of this thread, barring what I have said above for clarity, "panel" should refer to all guards'/conductors' door controls. I sign stock where they are called "stewards' panels", "desks", "conductors' panels" and "guards' panels" so it gets a bit varied at times!

As for giving two on the bell, it's 1-2 to close doors, 2 for right away, etc. etc. etc. The ready to start can also be given by green flag/light, in some places by a clear understanding being reached by telephone (note that the Competency Standards at some TOCs technically forbid this), or in some areas with walkie talkies (eg. various WCRC services).

How will all of the above be carried out when/if these OBS come into force, who (for anyone that isn't familiar with GTR's current situation) don't have any dispatch duties?

 

[tsr]

How will all of the above be carried out when/if these OBS come into force, who (for anyone that isn't familiar with GTR's current situation) don't have any dispatch duties?

Selhurst Conductors are not affected by job changes under the current proposals, partly for this very reason. I believe some will also remain at Eastbourne specifically for the Marshlink.