Doors failed to open at Waterloo (1A20)

[AM9]

Having posted this morning a response that went against any of the 'common sense' 'elf 'n safety nonsense' attitudes, it's good to see some responsible comments here. Safety on the railway depends on adherence to procedures and rules designed explicitly to protect passengers and staff and are based on years of experience with avoidable incidents because doing the right thing was 'inconvenient' for a few.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Those of us with experience of the old days with manual doors will recall that passengers always opened them on the correct side. You could readily open the other side, but nobody ever did. Quite how is it thought that common sense has evaporated nowadays.

Not always. People sometimes opened the doors on the wrong side.
Bear in mind too, people are used to not taking responsibility for their actions these days, and when you do something wrong there's always someone else to blame

 

[Robertj21a]

Haven't there been instances (across the UK) where the police have asked for all train doors to remain closed while they investigate something, look for somebody etc ?
Could a passenger knowing how to release the doors simply pull the lever (and do a runner) - or does the original action by the driver or guard override such a possibility ?

 

[Edsmith]

Those of us with experience of the old days with manual doors will recall that passengers always opened them on the correct side. You could readily open the other side, but nobody ever did. Quite how is it thought that common sense has evaporated nowadays.

Exactly and I'm surprised nobody took it upon themselves to use the emergency door release.

 

[LAX54]

Having posted this morning a response that went against any of the 'common sense' 'elf 'n safety nonsense' attitudes, it's good to see some responsible comments here. Safety on the railway depends on adherence to procedures and rules designed explicitly to protect passengers and staff and are based on years of experience with avoidable incidents because doing the right thing was 'inconvenient' for a few.

Seems it was a TMS failure, this was at 0855, fitter called, Siemens did a reboot, all in 'order' at 0912. failed again Woking ...TMS / HSCB fail

 

[cjohnson]

I seem to remember arriving into, I think, Victoria a couple of years ago for the driver to make an announcement as soon as we stopped that there'd be a short delay opening the doors as he had to "reset the system" (or similar).

The doors then released about 30 seconds later, IIRC.

Was this to do with the 377s needing to lock on to a GPS signal to confirm the train was at a station where the doors could be opened, but due to Victoria being covered there was some workaround that took a small amount of time to reset/spoof a GPS signal to convince the train it was at a valid platform.

 

[AM9]

Was this to do with the 377s needing to lock on to a GPS signal to confirm the train was at a station where the doors could be opened, but due to Victoria being covered there was some workaround that took a small amount of time to reset/spoof a GPS signal to convince the train it was at a valid platform.

That issue was responsible for several instances of Thameslink trains arriving at stations in the core correctly at platforms that were sub-surface, but unable to release doors because the GPS signal was inadequately received.

Seems it was a TMS failure, this was at 0855, fitter called, Siemens did a reboot, all in 'order' at 0912. failed again Woking ...TMS / HSCB fail

But it wasn't an 'emergency' necessitating passenger egress release.

 

[swt_passenger]

Will be interesting to see if delay repay approved here. In a similar if much less severe incident at Nottingham, I was told by XC that the arrival time for delay repay is the time the train passes the platform approach signal not doors open

Then XC were being stupid, because that is a common issue with signalling and automatic reporting all over the country, and they can easily account for it.

 

[Couru]

FWIW, I was on that train until Woking. Didn't have any problems until then, so pretty lucky that it developed at the terminus rather than at an intermediary stop.

 

[OneOfThe48]

But it wasn't an 'emergency' necessitating passenger egress release.

If passengers are sat on the train for 5 minutes plus at the terminal station waiting for the doors to open, with no communications from the driver or staff about why they are not opening, I do not think it is unreasonable for a passenger to assume it is appropriate to pull the emergency release.

Though personally I would try to pull the alarm/comms device by the doors first to try and communicate with the driver/staff to enquire.

 

[station_road]

Those of us with experience of the old days with manual doors will recall that passengers always opened them on the correct side. You could readily open the other side, but nobody ever did. Quite how is it thought that common sense has evaporated nowadays.

It actually happened quite often (especially at night) - same with short platforms and people opening the doors onto the track. The difference was that the internet didn't exist so you never heard about it.

 

[Craig1122]

It actually happened quite often (especially at night) - same with short platforms and people opening the doors onto the track. The difference was that the internet didn't exist so you never heard about it.

Hence a number of places on the network you would see station name style boards but in red with 'Do not alight here'.

Historical figures seem to suggest around 20 deaths a year of people falling from moving trains. There were presumably a far greater number injured but not actually killed, and presumably a number of them were probably lucky not to be.

 

[AM9]

If passengers are sat on the train for 5 minutes plus at the terminal station waiting for the doors to open, with no communications from the driver or staff about why they are not opening, I do not think it is unreasonable for a passenger to assume it is appropriate to pull the emergency release.

Five minutes in a major station, presumably with other movement/noises and probably visibility of staff and others walking on adjacent platforms, no, not a reason to activate an Emergency opening of doors.

Though personally I would try to pull the alarm/comms device by the doors first to try and communicate with the driver/staff to enquire.

Which is the correct thing to do, - that's what the passcomm is for.

 

[Deepgreen]

Those of us with experience of the old days with manual doors will recall that passengers always opened them on the correct side. You could readily open the other side, but nobody ever did. Quite how is it thought that common sense has evaporated nowadays.

Not always - I remember at least three incidents of wrong-side opening, including one at New Malden on a SUB where someone got up from a nap and opened on the wrong side, realised their error almost at once and closed it again, a second before a fast passed with horn blaring! Very unnerving. It was very, very rare though, and I never saw it at a terminus.

 

[OneOfThe48]

Five minutes in a major station, presumably with other movement/noises and probably visibility of staff and others walking on adjacent platforms, no, not a reason to activate an Emergency opening of doors.

How long would you wait for on a train waiting for the doors to open with no contact from staff?

 

[AM9]

How long would you wait for on a train waiting for the doors to open with no contact from staff?

If I was alone, I would first make sure that I couldn't raise anybody on the passcomm. Then I would use my mobile phone to call the TOC or NR or ultimately the emergency services. If that failed then ultimately I would open the doors, - probably at least 20-30 minutes hence.
If you want to construct a very unlikely scenario, go ahead, but this was Waterloo, usually the busiest station in the UK, not Berney Arms so no need to panic as I've spent more than 5 minutes at the approach signals on several occasions, with no notifications.

 

[Krokodil]

The big difference with slam doors is that you had to lean out of the window to operate the handle, unlike a power door where people would blindly fall out like lemmings if given the opportunity.

The danger with telling people to use the emergency egress handles is that the next time that doors are a little slow to release (guard elbowing way to a panel or maybe there's a nutter with a machete on the platform), some passengers will automatically take it upon themselves to open the door. Maybe they will be on the phone (having a VERY important business call, donchaknow), the train stops at a signal, they just pull the handle and walk out...

 

[Runningaround]

The mere use of the phrase "slam door era" sums up the problem. For probably a majority of passengers, that era was outside their experience, and just because seasoned travellers here might have instinctively egressed safely, it would be an unacceptable assumption for the railway to encourage all travellers to let themselves off the train by what is an emergency facility.
The ability of passengers to exit the train is there for use in the event of an emergency, i.e. as an escape from danger such as fire or an attack within the train.
Probably hardly anybody here, let alone the general travelling public has ever used the door release so to normalise it as a way of saving time when the doors are not opened promptly would set a dangerous precedent, especially in 3rd rail land with its additional life-threatening hazards just below door openings.

Are there that many passengers around who don't understand the reasons for a door and struggle to workout if to use it or not?
You saying once the platform side door has opened by one the other passengers are going to start jumping off the non-platform door.
I've never seen anyone trying to exit a closed door accidently while the others open.
Even if the passenger did (in an extremely unlikely chance) accidently open the wrong side they would still notice its not at a platform and head over to the other side, passengers do open doors themselves even down south, they can see when trains at a platform and can still pull a handle at any time while on the train without hearing off train staff.

Its complete nonsense to suggest that it's not safe to trust passengers to judge when to pull a handle themselves even with an announcement when the option to use it is there every minute they're on a train.

If there is that mistrust in passengers making their own judgment why on earth do trains have so many chances to do so.

 

[Idiotic]

As it has been said. You do not tell people to use the green egress handles to open doors unless it’s an emergency.

There is a risk that a passenger may open the wrong side. Now it may seem unlikely however it has happened in the past. Wrong side releases have occurred also and passengers have alighted onto the track not paying attention.

Also encouraging people to use the emergency egress handle may encourage them in the future when there’s smaller delays.

It’s all about safety. Whilst it’s inconvenient, it’s about managing the situation and being proactive.

Not a good excuse if there are no announcements from the crew side though. The Guard could have also used the external egresses to assist the flow.

It’s about risk however small or big the risk is you don’t take them.

 

[Watershed]

Will be interesting to see if delay repay approved here. In a similar if much less severe incident at Nottingham, I was told by XC that the arrival time for delay repay is the time the train passes the platform approach signal not doors open

That's what industry data containing arrival times are based on (with an offset to allow for the average amount of time taken for the train to arrive into the station), but that does not make it the correct time to base Delay Repay calculations on. If there are problems with releasing the doors, this means that the arrival time is not until the passenger is able to step off the train.

 

[MotCO]

Not always - I remember at least three incidents of wrong-side opening, including one at New Malden on a SUB where someone got up from a nap and opened on the wrong side, realised their error almost at once and closed it again, a second before a fast passed with horn blaring! Very unnerving. It was very, very rare though, and I never saw it at a terminus.

Coincidentally, my father was also at New Malden on a slam door train, and could not open the door since it was locked! He had to travel to the next station where he was able to attract the attention of the guard to unlock the door.

 

[Deepgreen]

Just been told by a mate that his train to Waterloo this morning had some 'issues' with the doors.
They arrived at Waterloo on time and had no issues before then, but the doors failed to open. After 5 minutes, the guard told everyone that they would have to exit the train from a single door (presumably the one he was operating) as the door system has failed, which he had opened using the emergency latch. Considering this was a busy 12-car train, I'm told it took a long time to get everyone off!

My question is how often does this happen? I have never heard of any issues with the door systems or ASDO on these trains (apart from the fact the cycles are painfully slow) for a while now...

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L21171/2023-03-06/detailed#allox_id=0

Yes, I thought five minutes was just the standard release time on 450s...!

Coincidentally, my father was also at New Malden on a slam door train, and could not open the door since it was locked! He had to travel to the next station where he was able to attract the attention of the guard to unlock the door.

Must have been in a compartment? I had that at least once! I lived at NM until 1981.

 

[AM9]

Are there that many passengers around who don't understand the reasons for a door and struggle to workout if to use it or not?

The emergency egress capability is not theirs to use at will except in an emergency, (which the OP's description of the event doesn't describe it as one).

You saying once the platform side door has opened by one the other passengers are going to start jumping off the non-platform door.

The discussion is about a situation where no doors were open to allow passengers to alight.

I've never seen anyone trying to exit a closed door accidently while the others open.

Where was it said that somebody tried to exit a closed door "accidentally"?

Even if the passenger did (in an extremely unlikely chance) accidently open the wrong side they would still notice its not at a platform and head over to the other side, passengers do open doors themselves even down south, they can see when trains at a platform and can still pull a handle at any time while on the train without hearing off train staff.

As @Deepgreen said in post #44, "Not always - I remember at least three incidents of wrong-side opening, including one at New Malden on a SUB where someone got up from a nap and opened on the wrong side... ", so your "extremely unlikely chance" situations do occur, and injuries or even death is 'quite likely' if it gets that far.

Its complete nonsense to suggest that it's not safe to trust passengers to judge when to pull a handle themselves even with an announcement when the option to use it is there every minute they're on a train.

It definitely isn't safe to trust passengers to freely judge when to pull a handle that is expressley there for emergencies. If the culture of the egress facility being a convenience for the impatient passenger then that would allow a hazardous action regressing to normal, - a very dangerous situation.

If there is that mistrust in passengers making their own judgment why on earth do trains have so many chances to do so.

Because almost every passenger trusts the that railway is charged with their safe carriage, and disobeying very prominent notices prohibiting certain activites is the territory of arrogant self-interested fools.
As far as why the railway has so many areas of operation where hazards do exist, - well, the UK railway is almost 200 years old and attitudes of danger and responsibility were ignorant of the dangers created by the new railway, and there was little if any legal recompense if an innocent assumption of a lay traveller resulted in harm to themselves or others. Luickily, in the UK, every significant incident on the railway is independently investigated and where possibl, preventative measures embedded in law to preven or at leat mitigate similar events in the future, - thus in the railway, we have a transport system that has a very low level of inurues and deaths.
We live in a (legally) much more caring society now and everbody has a legal obligation to maintain the safety of others in their actions. This is how the railway's grandfather rights are tolerated where practical, to this day. There of course quite a few individuals who presume that it doesn't include themselves and their superior knowledge of 'things'* allows them to ignore warnings intended to protect eveybody including themselves.

* RUK seems to have a few members with some railway knowledge and who think that safety is just 'stuff and nonsense' as this and other threads seems to be revealing.

 

[MotCO]

Must have been in a compartment? I had that at least once! I lived at NM until 1981.

I was there until 1983!

 

[ComUtoR]

How long would you wait for on a train waiting for the doors to open with no contact from staff?

Probably around two minutes. Maybe less, not longer than 5

 

[infobleep]

As an example of someone being in their own world, follow this link:
https://www.networkrailmediacentre....tv-catches-mans-shocking-near-miss-with-train
To see a video of someone strolling across a level crossing, oblivious to the oncoming high speed train.

That's shocking. They were so lucky.

I notice though that with the full speed video the man suddenly disappears, so some frames are missing from the video, at full speed.

With regards to the doors at Waterloo, I wasn't there so can't verify if rhsvguard remained silent for 5 minutes but if they did they shouldn't have done so.

I was once on a train where due to ice the horn had failed. We were at a station and the doors were locked. Eventually another train came in and departed ahead of us. They did eventually open the doors but the other train had gone.

I've spent more than 5 minutes at the approach signals on several occasions, with no notifications.

That isn't good customer service.

 

[Towers]

Agreed that an announcement should be happening well ahead of five minutes - if the doors don't release as expected after a couple of attempts from the first panel, a quick PA (there is a handset in every guard's panel on a Desiro I believe?) and try elsewhere, failing that a further PA while deciding what to do next. Several minutes is an awfully long time stood waiting for a door to open with no communication from anyone. As for pax using the egress handles, I don't think that's at all unreasonable after a few minutes quite frankly, and nor is it a major issue beyond some poor sod having to reset them all!

Haven't there been instances (across the UK) where the police have asked for all train doors to remain closed while they investigate something, look for somebody etc ?
Could a passenger knowing how to release the doors simply pull the lever (and do a runner) - or does the original action by the driver or guard override such a possibility ?

The emergency egress facility cannot be overridden, and in the situation you outline then yes there's every chance of someone operating an egress and alighting. This is where the skill of the crew come into play, providing an appropriate explanation to keep people cooperative, and where appropriate to try and avoid raising the suspicions of any suspect being unknowingly detained board at the request of the police - sometimes in this scenario a train will be held just outside a station to help reduce the possibility of escape.

 

[The exile]

Haven't there been instances (across the UK) where the police have asked for all train doors to remain closed while they investigate something, look for somebody etc ?

Then that should be clearly announced on the train (I was working on the assumption that the problem was outside the train - doesn’t work if the suspect is aboard, of course)and delay repay compensation (where appropriate) paid out of the policing budget.

 

[Bantamzen]

I've been on a few services where the doors have failed to open, and on all but one occasion a swift message to punters just to let them know nothing untoward is happening leads to no more than some grumbling, tutting and looking at watches. And that's the key here, tell the punters what's going on. Because if crew / station staff don't, then sooner or later passengers are going to have to decide for themselves if this is just a fault and to be patient, or that something bad is happening and that they might be in an emergency situation and need to use the egress handles to get off ASAP.

And before anyone pipes up with any kind of "it would be obvious there's an emergency happening", as someone who as a teenager found himself in literally a life or death situation, the difference between the two can literally be seconds even when it might not be immediately obvious something very serious is occurring. That's why it is the key responsibility of rail staff to communicate quickly & clearly. I've no idea exactly what communication and when it occurred from the incident in the OP, but it does sound like comms were lacking somewhat.

 

[moley]

I was on a train with a similar issue. At Waterloo the guard shut the doors, gave the signal and the driver went to take power and train died.

Guard could not reopen doors and PA would not function. Took about 15 minutes to resolve including completely switching it off leaving a full and standing train illuminated by a few emergency lights. If I recall correctly, even these went out for a bit.
In that case, everyone just shrugged and waited. No one was bothered. I was in the front coach and you could see up platform 15 to see it was the whole train.