Doors failed to open at Waterloo (1A20)

[jackot]

Just been told by a mate that his train to Waterloo this morning had some 'issues' with the doors.
They arrived at Waterloo on time and had no issues before then, but the doors failed to open. After 5 minutes, the guard told everyone that they would have to exit the train from a single door (presumably the one he was operating) as the door system has failed, which he had opened using the emergency latch. Considering this was a busy 12-car train, I'm told it took a long time to get everyone off!

My question is how often does this happen? I have never heard of any issues with the door systems or ASDO on these trains (apart from the fact the cycles are painfully slow) for a while now...

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L21171/2023-03-06/detailed#allox_id=0

 

[Omnishambles]

Be interested to know if anyone on here was on that train once they hear back from SWR on their Delay/Repay claim

 

[357]

Realtime Trains | 2L21 0912 London Waterloo to Woking | 06/03/2023

Real-time train running information for 2L21 0912 departure from London Waterloo to Woking on 06/03/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Return working terminated early due to a fault with the train

 

[507020]

After 5 minutes, the guard told everyone that they would have to exit the train from a single door (presumably the one he was operating) as the door system has failed, which he had opened using the emergency latch. Considering this was a busy 12-car train, I'm told it took a long time to get everyone off!

Given that the door system had failed, why couldn’t the guard have done an announcement instructing passengers to use the emergency door release at all other doors on the platform side, instead of having to walk through the train?

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Given that the door system had failed, why couldn’t the guard have done an announcement instructing passengers to use the emergency door release at all other doors on the platform side, instead of having to walk through the train?

Probably people might operate the doors "wrong side" by mistake(?) Taking no chances and therefore the right course of action by the guard

 

[Chris M]

Probably people might operate the doors "wrong side" by mistake(?) Taking no chances and therefore the right course of action by the guard

Either by mistake or by someone thinking that it would enable them to get out quicker - most likely someone who is impatient, able bodied, reasonably fit, unfamiliar with how high platforms actually are and not thinking of/aware of the risk from a train entering the platform before they vacated the track.

 

[etr221]

In that situation - where the train has stopped in a platform but the doors are not opened/released (as expected) for a significant time - how long should passengers wait, in the absence of announcements, before it becomes reasonable for them to operate the emergency door release themselves? (And - to avoid people jumping to the wrong conclusion - I am talking about on the platform side, so they can just step of the train). Is there any difference between an intermadiate and a terminal stop?

 

[ModernRailways]

Given that the door system had failed, why couldn’t the guard have done an announcement instructing passengers to use the emergency door release at all other doors on the platform side, instead of having to walk through the train?

You'll inevitably have someone use it on the wrong side.
Not sure how it works down in SWR land, but could the guard not go down and use the external emergency releases, or if possible use another door panel? If it's a 12 car train there should be plenty of places where they can try and release the doors from?
I'm aware some trains do have to have a drivers key in and a cab active, in order for the doors to be operable, but even if this was the case they should still be able to use the external releases?

 

[Taunton]

Probably people might operate the doors "wrong side" by mistake(?) Taking no chances and therefore the right course of action by the guard

Those of us with experience of the old days with manual doors will recall that passengers always opened them on the correct side. You could readily open the other side, but nobody ever did. Quite how is it thought that common sense has evaporated nowadays.

 

[AM9]

Those of us with experience of the old days with manual doors will recall that passengers always opened them on the correct side. You could readily open the other side, but nobody ever did. Quite how is it thought that common sense has evaporated nowadays.

It's not that 'common sense' (whatever that means) has changed, but more that H&S legislation places a lot more responsibility on whoever is in control of operation on the railway.

 

[ijmad]

Either by mistake or by someone thinking that it would enable them to get out quicker - most likely someone who is impatient, able bodied, reasonably fit, unfamiliar with how high platforms actually are and not thinking of/aware of the risk from a train entering the platform before they vacated the track.

Not to mention touching the third rail, which would be between the two tracks and right under the off side doors at most of Waterloo's platforms.

 

[Horizon22]

In that situation - where the train has stopped in a platform but the doors are not opened/released (as expected) for a significant time - how long should passengers wait, in the absence of announcements, before it becomes reasonable for them to operate the emergency door release themselves? (And - to avoid people jumping to the wrong conclusion - I am talking about on the platform side, so they can just step of the train). Is there any difference between an intermadiate and a terminal stop?

I'm not sure when it becomes "reasonable" but the guard made announcements after 5 minutes, so this point is moot. I think even on a DOO service at a terminal an announcement would be made fairly quickly.

 

[507020]

You'll inevitably have someone use it on the wrong side.
Not sure how it works down in SWR land

Well, in SWR land, the non-platform side at Waterloo is home to not 1, but 2 conductor rails directly below the door…

But there was of course nothing ever physically stopping any of the passengers, fearing they had been locked in, from using the emergency door release of their own accord before the announcement. I would consider it quite reasonable for the more impatient ones to have done so and if this occurred, I don’t understand why anyone else would choose to wait rather than follow.

Commuters arriving at Waterloo will be more familiar with the station and their journey than many, so I doubt any of them would be stupid enough to release the wrong door.

In that situation - where the train has stopped in a platform but the doors are not opened/released (as expected) for a significant time - how long should passengers wait, in the absence of announcements, before it becomes reasonable for them to operate the emergency door release themselves? (And - to avoid people jumping to the wrong conclusion - I am talking about on the platform side, so they can just step of the train). Is there any difference between an intermadiate and a terminal stop?

I would suggest that it becomes reasonable, once it becomes noticeably obvious that the doors have not opened within a normal period of time after arriving and in the absence of an announcement, not noticeably obvious that a guard or other staff member is still present or aware of the situation.

Even then, why is the guard not able to advise passengers how to operate the emergency door release correctly, in the safest manner possible, noting the care and attention with which the doors have to opened on the platform side to avoid the immediate risk of electrocution, that passengers do so at their own risk and that those who choose not to may continue to walk through the train to the guard’s location. This would alleviate crowding along the train.

Also, I know much of the SWR fleet is walk through, but in future 701s will not be and also most importantly any wheelchair users would not have been able to make their way through the train and would still have required rescuing by a staff member, at the door where they were already located.

Not to mention touching the third rail, which would be between the two tracks and right under the off side doors at most of Waterloo's platforms.

Yes

I'm not sure when it becomes "reasonable" but the guard made announcements after 5 minutes, so this point is moot. I think even on a DOO service at a terminal an announcement would be made fairly quickly.

But imagine a scenario where, on a DOO service, the driver pressed the door release button, left the cab and did not look back to see that the doors had failed to open, with a full train of passengers left trapped.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Those of us with experience of the old days with manual doors will recall that passengers always opened them on the correct side. You could readily open the other side, but nobody ever did. Quite how is it thought that common sense has evaporated nowadays.

But that was in the slam-door era when it was a normal, every day event - which is no longer the case.

 

[A Challenge]

Even if they can't instruct people to, I am surprised nobody had used the emergency release on the door in this situation (which seems particularly likely if they were some distance from the guard and if the guard wasn't near the front of the train).

But imagine a scenario where, on a DOO service, the driver pressed the door release button, left the cab and did not look back to see that the doors had failed to open, with a full train of passengers left trapped.

That seems unlikely, even if I have seen first hand that door releases aren't always fully reliable (on a Sheffield tram that failed to release the doors at Halfway, the driver left the cab then had to go back to release the doors)

 

[Horizon22]

But imagine a scenario where, on a DOO service, the driver pressed the door release button, left the cab and did not look back to see that the doors had failed to open, with a full train of passengers left trapped.

The driver wouldn't "leave the cab" in that scenario.

 

[Bertie the bus]

But that was in the slam-door era when it was a normal, every day event - which is no longer the case.

So is alighting from a train at Waterloo for commuters. Even these days commuters seem to have the intelligence to see which side the platform is on and stand by that door rather than the one on the opposite side of the train and wonder why they're not getting off.

 

[greatkingrat]

The driver wouldn't "leave the cab" in that scenario.

I am aware of a case where a driver arrived at a terminus needing the toilet urgently, stopped, keyed off, and hurried off to the toilet. It was only when they got back they realised the doors hadn't been opened!

 

[185143]

I seem to remember arriving into, I think, Victoria a couple of years ago for the driver to make an announcement as soon as we stopped that there'd be a short delay opening the doors as he had to "reset the system" (or similar).

The doors then released about 30 seconds later, IIRC.

 

[VWRO2]

Given that the door system had failed, why couldn’t the guard have done an announcement instructing passengers to use the emergency door release at all other doors on the platform side, instead of having to walk through the train?

Those of us with experience of the old days with manual doors will recall that passengers always opened them on the correct side. You could readily open the other side, but nobody ever did. Quite how is it thought that common sense has evaporated nowadays.

So is alighting from a train at Waterloo for commuters. Even these days commuters seem to have the intelligence to see which side the platform is on and stand by that door rather than the one on the opposite side of the train and wonder why they're not getting off.

Agree, however in a blame society, who do you think would take the hit should someone open the wrong door and get injured after the guard has said it was ok for the passengers to let themselves off? Things have changed since the slam door era, unfortunately some people require everything to be done for them and to be guided as common sense and self preservation really have faded in comparison.

 

[ollyrogers]

That’s a Reggie Perrin excuse:

27 minutes late; doors stuck for 27 minutes at Waterloo

 

[Class800]

Will be interesting to see if delay repay approved here. In a similar if much less severe incident at Nottingham, I was told by XC that the arrival time for delay repay is the time the train passes the platform approach signal not doors open

 

[jackot]

Interesting reading all the responses! My mate said he didn't see anyone open the emergency doors, although I wouldn't have been surprised if he told me a few people did, considering how impatient so many people are now.

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:L24117/2023-03-06/detailed#allox_id=0[/URL]

Return working terminated early due to a fault with the train

That is interesting also. It seems it left Waterloo fine and got to Woking but terminated there. Maybe the software system needed a complete reset, something I know can take a while on these units.

 

[AM9]

Agree, however in a blame society, who do you think would take the hit should someone open the wrong door and get injured after the guard has said it was ok for the passengers to let themselves off? Things have changed since the slam door era, unfortunately some people require everything to be done for them and to be guided as common sense and self preservation really have faded in comparison.

The mere use of the phrase "slam door era" sums up the problem. For probably a majority of passengers, that era was outside their experience, and just because seasoned travellers here might have instinctively egressed safely, it would be an unacceptable assumption for the railway to encourage all travellers to let themselves off the train by what is an emergency facility.
The ability of passengers to exit the train is there for use in the event of an emergency, i.e. as an escape from danger such as fire or an attack within the train.
Probably hardly anybody here, let alone the general travelling public has ever used the door release so to normalise it as a way of saving time when the doors are not opened promptly would set a dangerous precedent, especially in 3rd rail land with its additional life-threatening hazards just below door openings.

 

[357]

The mere use of the phrase "slam door era" sums up the problem. For probably a majority of passengers, that era was outside their experience, and just because seasoned travellers here might have instinctively egressed safely, it would be an unacceptable assumption for the railway to encourage all travellers to let themselves off the train by what is an emergency facility.
The ability of passengers to exit the train is there for use in the event of an emergency, i.e. as an escape from danger such as fire or an attack within the train.
Probably hardly anybody here, let alone the general travelling public has ever used the door release so to normalise it as a way of saving time when the doors are not opened promptly would set a dangerous precedent, especially in 3rd rail land with its additional life-threatening hazards just below door openings.

I'm 30 years old and I don't think I've ever traveled on a slam door in service apart from once when I went to Lymington, a couple of railtours, and on heritage lines.

As a driver, I think some people in this thread need reminding that the egress is for use in emergencies, and while this situation may have been inconvenient - it was by no means an emergency.

Veg in this thread might know how an egress works but you must remember that 50% of people have below average intelligence and that it only needs one person to listen to an announcement saying to use the egress, pull it on the wrong side, and lead to a thread on here saying "What a stupid guard, they could have all got off through local door release or the guard could have used external egress handles"

 

[Falcon1200]

Those of us with experience of the old days with manual doors will recall that passengers always opened them on the correct side. You could readily open the other side, but nobody ever did. Quite how is it thought that common sense has evaporated nowadays.

Possibly true at station stops, but there are very good reasons why slam doors no longer exist on the main line; Every year a number of passengers fell to their deaths through opening a door on a moving train, the Trent Valley line was particularly notorious for this.

 

[Big Jumby 74]

It's not that 'common sense' (whatever that means) has changed, but more that H&S legislation places a lot more responsibility on whoever is in control of operation on the railway.

At risk of getting slightly OT, I think where behaviour has changed (since my commuting days on slammers) and could potentially have dire consequences in this type of scenario, is that many people these days are in their own world with headphones on, or distracted by their devices various, all whilst walking eg: through station concourses, and getting on/off trains. It does indeed give an impression that there has been a reduction in 'common sense', or at very least a lack of awareness of their surroundings, like it or not.

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I honestly can't believe some of the responses I've read on here!

The only reason a passenger should use the emergency egress is in an emergency, not because the doors are slow to be released.

There can be many reasons doors are not immediately released - such as the police cordon on platform at Malvern Link this morning amongst other things.

As a member of train crew, I would also never announce to passengers to use the egress as that goes against company policy and training and would be risking my job should something happen due to those instructions, be that a trip/fall or even breaking or snapping an egress handle causing the train to be out of service or heavily delayed.

Whilst many on here have used manually operated doors, tha doesn't give you permission to start operating centrally powered doors.

I have been in a situation where not all doors released at a station due to a unit failure, good communication is what is required to resolve the situation as quickly as possible.

Sometimes a train reset may be required which can take time depending on the stock, but using egresses can stop that process or the TMS can through errors for such things which only makes the situation worse.

I appreciate everyone wants to alight quickly, but rarely do doors not get released in good time so just wait for an announcement from the train crew, explaining the reason. There may be a very good reason for the delay!

 

[Bread & cheese]

At risk of getting slightly OT, I think where behaviour has changed (since my commuting days on slammers) and could potentially have dire consequences in this type of scenario, is that many people these days are in their own world with headphones on, or distracted by their devices various, all whilst walking eg: through station concourses, and getting on/off trains. It does indeed give an impression that there has been a reduction in 'common sense', or at very least a lack of awareness of their surroundings, like it or not.

As an example of someone being in their own world, follow this link:
https://www.networkrailmediacentre....tv-catches-mans-shocking-near-miss-with-train
To see a video of someone strolling across a level crossing, oblivious to the oncoming high speed train.

 

[londonboi198o5]

So is alighting from a train at Waterloo for commuters. Even these days commuters seem to have the intelligence to see which side the platform is on and stand by that door rather than the one on the opposite side of the train and wonder why they're not getting off.

trouble is these days people are to focused looking at a small device that seems to be surgically attached to hands with eyes fixated on them called a mobile device and rather than looking up or focusing on what they are doing tend to just wander around walking into each other and not concentrating on what they are actually doing or around them.