Doors not even opening

[robertclark125]

It was my line managers last day in his present job. He gets promoted to a higher position from Monday, at our Kendal store, but what a last day. I had to get him off the train at Glenrothes with Thornton station. It was an outer circle service on the Fife Circle.

I got there, expecting to see him, but no, not there. An inner circle service, then another outer circle service came and went.

Next thing, he phones me from Kirkcaldy. This had happened. When he stood awaiting the doors to be opened at Glenrothes with Thornton station, they didn't open, despite him pressing the button, so he rushed down to the next doors, same thing. Next thing, the train went, and he was taken to the next stop, Kirkcaldy. He had to get anotehr service from there back to Thornton.

It seems, according to him, the guard told him that as no one was waiting on the platform at Glenrothes with Thornton station, and as it was snowing, they decided NOT to release the doors. Hence, my manager was stuck on it until Kirkcaldy.

What do you all think of that?

 

[Surreytraveller]

I would have pulled the egress. And two cords - two because one will be reset, then the crew will spend another hour wondering why the train isn't moving - it never occurs to them that more than one cord might have been pulled!

 

[First class]

If the train cannot (in the opinion of the traincrew) safely stop then the guard should not release the doors.

Of course from a Customer Service point of view, alternative transport/announcements should have been considered.

And surreytraveller, no doubt you would be a bit cheesed off if you had been stuck at a signal on the train behind of someone who has pulled multiple chains ahead just to be a tw*t for the traincrew. One is enough- anything else I would think would be classed as misuse (with subsequent Byelaw penalties) unless it was a life/death situation.

 

[Darandio]

The train had stopped though hadn't it? At least reading from the above seems to be the case.

Seems to me like a case of nobody waiting and after a quick glance down the train, the guard saw nobody waiting to exit. Adding the snow and the guard not wanting to get cold, he just double buzzed and away they went.

 

[First class]

The train had stopped though hadn't it? At least reading from the above seems to be the case.

Seems to me like a case of nobody waiting and after a quick glance down the train, the guard saw nobody waiting to exit. Adding the snow and the guard not wanting to get cold, he just double buzzed and away they went.

The train would stop anyway - the guard physically gets out of the cab- checks the station is safe enough for him to release the doors. If, in his opinion, it is not, then give two on the bell and subsequent announcements/inform control.

We can only speculate...

 

[Darandio]

Ah right, I get what you meant and yes, speculation is the only thing we have at the moment.

I do find it weird though that the guard gave one of the reasons as "no one was waiting on the platform". Surely good practice would suggest to liaise with any passengers wishing to depart to inform them? If passengers were waiting on the platform to board, would they have watched their train arrive only to depart without the doors opening?

Again, only speculation.

 

[robertclark125]

I was waiting on the platform. It was clear of snow, it had been gritted. IMO, it was safe to stop. After all, I saw three other trains stop, and they picked up and/set down.

 

[Surreytraveller]

One is enough- anything else I would think would be classed as misuse (with subsequent Byelaw penalties) unless it was a life/death situation.

I'd like to see them try. By trying to prosecute me they will only be highlighting their own incompetence and lack of regard for passengers.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I'd like to see them try. By trying to prosecute me they will only be highlighting their own incompetence and lack of regard for passengers.

No. By pulling the mutliple cords, you have just proved that you have no regard for anyone else, apart from yourself. It is sad to see people in this society act so selfishly.

Moron.

 

[Surreytraveller]

If the train cannot (in the opinion of the traincrew) safely stop then the guard should not release the doors.

At no point did the OP say it wasn't safe. If you bothered to read the post, the guard admitted it was because he saw nobody waiting to get on. Making assumptions whilst ignoring what has been said makes you look like the clown that didn't open the doors.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No. By pulling the mutliple cords, you have just proved that you have no regard for anyone else, apart from yourself. It is sad to see people in this society act so selfishly.

Moron.

Lol. Am I getting to you? Lol. Pulling multiple cords teaches the crew to do their job properly, so they will be less ingorant and lazy in the future.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Moron.

Grow up.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The guard may have had other reasons, than what was given to the passengers.

And how do train crew highlight their incompetence, by having to sort out the problems you caused?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You're asking me to grow up when you are the child running around pulling emergency cords? I think you need to grow up.

How are the crew then doing there job properly? I fail to see how causing them problems makes them do their job properly. You are the lazy ignorant one here.

 

[djw1981]

Pulling one cord as the train starts to depart station (after the 2 bells) may be considered acceptable in the circumstances; given that the staff will come to the carriage where you are, assuming you used a local arlarm point.

Also on the Fife Circle trains staff will be used to checking all alarm points since local neds used to find it amusing to activate them all.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Pulling one cord as the train starts to depart station (after the 2 bells) may be considered acceptable in the circumstances; given that the staff will come to the carriage where you are, assuming you used a local arlarm point.

Not may be acceptable - will be acceptable. Is it acceptable to overcarry passengers (false imprisonment) due to lazyness of the crew? With a bit of luck, management will investigate the delay, and find out it is because the crew couldn't be bothered opening the doors.

 

[Oswyntail]

The guard may have had other reasons, than what was given to the passengers.......

And in this simple statement we have summed up one of the biggest problems facing the railways in Britain today.

 

[Surreytraveller]

And in this simple statement we have summed up one of the biggest problems facing the railways in Britain today.

Indeed. Despite all the talk about being customer friendly, that is all it is - just talk. Manangement don't care about 'customers', therefore the staff don't.

 

[mumrar]

Indeed. Despite all the talk about being customer friendly, that is all it is - just talk. Manangement don't care about 'customers', therefore the staff don't.

That's a pretty big brush you've got there if you're planning on tarring all railway staff with it. The irony being the statement is more ignorant than the attitude of those it is aimed at. One point on the legitimacy of the PassCOM being activated, it quite clearly states that it is for use in an emergency. Since when did missing your stop, regardless of who's at fault for this, constitute an emergency?

 

[Surreytraveller]

That's a pretty big brush you've got there if you're planning on tarring all railway staff with it. The irony being the statement is more ignorant than the attitude of those it is aimed at. One point on the legitimacy of the PassCOM being activated, it quite clearly states that it is for use in an emergency. Since when did missing your stop, regardless of who's at fault for this, constitute an emergency?

Define emergency. It may say its for use in an emergency, but it doesn't say its not to be used when there isn't an emergency. It just says penalty for misuse. Define misuse. I suggest using it to prevent missing your stop is not misuse.

And if you cannot see how customer unfriendly the railway is, then you are as blinkered as the management who think they know what they are doing.

 

[Oswyntail]

.... Since when did missing your stop, regardless of who's at fault for this, constitute an emergency?

For the passenger involved, it is a fairly major emergency at the time. Who defines "emergency", and what are the varying degrees? How are these made public?
In this case (as presented here - I do not know all the details, but let us treat it as a hypothetical case), those in charge of a train scheduled to stop and let passengers off failed to do so. In a customer-centred world, they would have ascertained whether there were in fact any passengers wishing to get off, explained to them that they had assessed the process as being too risky, taken them to the next safe station and arranged for them to be transported back to their intended station (not, of course, by a returning service, because they believed it was too risky to let them off there). There may have been perfectly legitimate reasons for their decision, but these should have been explained.They did not do any of this, and this, in this case, shows a scant regard for the passengers, who are, after all, the only reason for the train being run. This is a very poor attitude from staff in any service industry, but it is not inconsistent with many of the responses to other customer-oriented problems that one finds on this site. (How many times do we see the response that the passengers should be familiar with the full details of the Fares Manual or the Routing Guide?).
When you find a widespread attitude like this, I do not believe it is generally down to the front-line individuals, but to the attitude of the management structure above them. In my view (formed from working in a service industry, but not rail) there is a common attitude that the role of the company is to extract maximum profit by "sweating assets" and "getting" the customer at every point. This may result in some profit, but it almost inevitably results in contracts not being renewed (something we have seen in rail, I believe) and an outcry from the companies involved that the contracts are too short and do not allow them to make the required changes (again, familiar). What this does to the technician on the ground is to deter them from thinking of the customer, because "putting in the extra mile" will often get you into trouble for using too many company resources for the resulting income. This attitude is infectious, and otherwise very good staff can get it without realising it. As I have written here before, put the customer first, treat the staff well, and the profits will come. What we have in this case (and many others reported here) seems to ignore this.

 

[Surreytraveller]

And also, a customer being overcarried, is in itself an emergency, as they will potentially be stranded. What if there are no trains going back? What if they get attacked? What if they were minors or vulnerable passengers? What if the train stops after it has left the platform and the passenger decides to detrain themselves and get electrocuted? All because of the attitude of a lot of railway staff.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

And also, a customer being overcarried, is in itself an emergency, as they will potentially be stranded.

That isn't a life or death emergency is it?

What if they get attacked? What if they were minors or vulnerable passengers?

You're just as likely to be attacked on a train, and if they are minors or vunerable then they shouldn't be travelling alone.

What if the train stops after it has left the platform and the passenger decides to detrain themselves and get electrocuted?

Well any person should know not to get off where there isn't a platform, and if they still try, and die, then here come the Darwin Awards.


Did you know that the misuse of Passcoms and Egresses, is punishable by law?

Did you know that when you operate one of the above, on a desiro, or 458, then the CCTV cameras automatically start filming you and focus on you? Then the footage is passed onto the BTP if there isn't an emergency. And, guess what? The footage is of court quality.

Did you know that the passcoms and egresses can be overidden by the driver?

MISSING YOUR STATION IS NOT AN EMERGENCY

 

[yorkie]

Ralf - please don't insult other members. Where did you get your anti-customer stance (prevailant in many posts) from? is this the attitude on the preserved line you volunteer at?

The railway exists for the benefit of passengers and is subsidised with around 6bn gbp per year. it doesn't exist to make a profit.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

No Yorkie, I merely use common sense when dealing with issues such as the above. It is plainly obvious that the emergency equipment is to be used in an emergency. When working at a railway I volunteer on, I use professionalism and put my personal view behind me, and the customer first. However, I think I should be able to air them on am internet forum.

Where did you get your anti-railway staff stance from?

 

[chuffchuff]

Back to the OP He wasn't as I've seen many people do
pressing the Close button to open the doors

( Yes I've seen it dozens of times )

 

[Surreytraveller]

That isn't a life or death emergency is it?

Where does it say the emergency has to be life or death?


You're just as likely to be attacked on a train, and if they are minors or vunerable then they shouldn't be travelling alone.

But it would be the railway's resonsibilty if they were attacked becuase they were not allowed to get off the train and dumped in an unfamiliar location. And why shouldn't minors be travelling alone? Are you saying all school children need to be accompanied to school? We would need three times as many buses and trains in the peak if that was the case! Don't be so daft! And anyone can be vulnerable - not just a stereotypical lone female or senile old person that you no doubt have in mind.


Well any person should know not to get off where there isn't a platform, and if they still try, and die, then here come the Darwin Awards.

But they weren't allowed to get off where there was a platfrom, so how can they be blamed?


Did you know that the misuse of Passcoms and Egresses, is punishable by law?

Like I said, it would not be classed as misuse. And the train crew would cover it up, as it would only highlight their own failing to have caused its use in the first place.
Did you know that when you operate one of the above, on a desiro, or 458, then the CCTV cameras automatically start filming you and focus on you? Then the footage is passed onto the BTP if there isn't an emergency. And, guess what? The footage is of court quality.

No it isn't passed to the BTP. It is only passed to the BTP if a crime has been reported, and the BTP have requested it. The Data Protection Act applies here. And I seriously doubt the BTP would be interested in a cord being pulled for a legitimate reason.Did you know that the passcoms and egresses can be overidden by the driver?

Yes. But only so the train can be stopped in a safe location once the nature of the emergency has been ascertained. And a passcom is not to be overridden whilst in a station, as how does the driver know that someone is not trapped in the doors and being dragged down the platform? If a driver were to override it in a station, he would be sacked. And an egress can only be overridden for a short time before the brakes are forced on and the doors opened.

MISSING YOUR STATION IS NOT AN EMERGENCY

YES IT IS

.....

 

[ralphchadkirk]

The defintion of emergency may help:

a serious, unexpected, and potentially dangerous situation requiring immediate action

As you fully know, I am not saying that people should always be accompanied. Only if they feel a risk is to be posed to them. Young women, for instance, is not advisable to travel alone, at night.

So because they weren't allowed to get off at a station they are allowed to jump off a train? Have you heard of anything more ridiculous? I would suggest using a modicum of common sense, and waiting for the next station.

Using a passcom in this way would be classed as misuse. End of. The train crew would not "cover it up" because it wouldn't highlight their failing, because drivers and guards don't just decide on a whim not to stop.

The footage can be passed to the BTP as it is a crime. Are you saying that it a CCTV operator saw an assault on one of his camera's he wouldn't pass the footage on because of the data protection act?

The overide of the egress and passcom is unlimited, however, yes, the driver would stop in a place where the emergency services would be able to reach it.

I fail to see how missing your station is a life or death emergency.

Also - as to someone in the door trapped in a door, the guard would see a hazard light and not give the right away, there would be no door interlock, and thus the driver wouldn't be able to apply power, the train therefore sits there. Unless it was a very small scrap of clothing, the guard would see it.

 

[mumrar]

I was asked to define emergency, so I'll try. Imagine you're driving to an important meeting down a motorway. Unfortunately you miss your exit from the motorway. Would you then pull on to the hard shoulder and dial 999 for police assistance? Probably not, if it was me I would continue on to the next available exit and turnaround, or replan my route from that exit. That, to my mind, is an equivalent scenario to missing your station, regardless of who is to blame.

 

[Surreytraveller]

The defintion of emergency may help:

a serious, unexpected, and potentially dangerous situation requiring immediate action

Sounds a fair enough definition for my purpose, then!

As you fully know, I am not saying that people should always be accompanied. Only if they feel a risk is to be posed to them. Young women, for instance, is not advisable to travel alone, at night.

I think you will find statiscally more men get attacked than women. There you go with the predictable stereotypes!

So because they weren't allowed to get off at a station they are allowed to jump off a train? Have you heard of anything more ridiculous? I would suggest using a modicum of common sense, and waiting for the next station.

How about the commonsense of releasing the doors?

Using a passcom in this way would be classed as misuse. End of. The train crew would not "cover it up" because it wouldn't highlight their failing, because drivers and guards don't just decide on a whim not to stop.

The train did stop. The doors weren't released. And the crew may not decide on a whim not to stop, but 'fail to call' does happen. They do not decide to do this, they 'fail to call'. A bit like a SPAD - it isn't intentional, but it happens. And it is not misuse, if the crew have failed to carry out their duty. They may or may not cover it up. But it is not misuse.


The footage can be passed to the BTP as it is a crime. Are you saying that it a CCTV operator saw an assault on one of his camera's he wouldn't pass the footage on because of the data protection act?

A CCTV operator witnessing an assault is different to someone pulling a cord.

The overide of the egress and passcom is unlimited, however, yes, the driver would stop in a place where the emergency services would be able to reach it.

I think you will find you are not correct. An egress has a limited time on it before the driver's override ceases to function.
I fail to see how missing your station is a life or death emergency.

I fail to see how the emergency has to be life or death (as already stated).

Stand by for some more customer unfriendly comments.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Statistically maybe men are more likely to be attacked, but statistically, McDonalds is more like a prevelant violent American biker gang, than anything else. Statistics are more stereotypical than anything else!

Yes - fail to call's happen, but that is no excuse for pulling the cord for just missing your stop!

Stand by for some more nonsensical comments about it being fine to pull emergency cords.

A CCTV operator witnessing an assault is no different from someone being filmed on a train misusing an emergency cord, other than the crime being committed.

 

[Surreytraveller]

You talk some gibberish, ralph. No doubt you enjoy having a go at and upsetting three-year-old little kids while your pretending at playing trains because you can't get a job on the real railway!

 

[GB]

We only have the OP side of the story here, and allthough Im not calling him a liar in anyway shape or form Id suspect there is another side to this story.

Was that particular service "Pick Up Only" at that station? I cant for the life of me understand why the train would stop but doors not released if there wasnt a good reason for it.

As for "All because of the attitude of a lot of railway staff", I suggest you get out a bit more:roll:

As for pulling the emergency chord for a missed stop, personly I wouldnt consider it an "emergency"...certainly its inconvenient, but then the chord isnt an "inconvenience chord" is it.