Doors opened on platform 7 at Guildford

[norbitonflyer]

Trains pulling into Platform 1 at Norwood Junction (the 'suburban' platform) are adjacent to platform 2. To get from 1 to 2 means two flights of stairs linked by the tunnel under the lines. Platform 2 is an island with platform 3. Commuters wishing to catch a 'London Bridge Fast' service from Platform 3 can be seen making the rush from 1 to 2/3 each morning, Opening both the sets of doors of the train on 1 would save them the rush.

Norwood Junction and Finsbury Park both had/have this arrangement, which in the days of the slammers facilitated interchange on both sides and/or access to the station entrance.

 

[W-on-Sea]

I don't know what happens at Barking Platform 2 now - with S Stock and with Platform 1 (which formerly served the GOBLIN) now being mostly disused.

With D Stock, however, at some point over the year, a change in procedures occured. Previously, the doors on the left hand side travelling east (on the unnumbered, narrow, platform joined to Platform 1)were closed before the doors on Platform 2 itself. Later on (certainly by the time that the GOBLIN was incorporated into the Overground) the opening and closure of both doors seemed usually to occur simulatneously on both sides, despite the unnumbered side being increasingly frequent used.

 

[WAB]

There are some LU stations with platforms on both sides of a line, Morden and Golders Green for example, presumably to expedite passenger flow. I'm sure I remember both sides being opened at Morden in the past but I have not been there lately. So do those places open only on one side now?

At turnback locations like Arnos Grove, the double-sided centre road is for terminating trains and allows passengers wanting to continue to the terminus to get the next train cross-platform and gives London-bound passengers all of their services from one platform.

 

[Lockwood]

Indeed - I wasn't saying that 420/500/630/750V was safe to touch.

I was asking why the situation was allied in once place and not the other. I couldn't think that the reduced voltage would really factor in to it, but I figured I would ask before someone said "because they signed it off because of the lower voltage, duh".

 

[30907]

If Guildford P7 cannot be used due to the nearside third rail..

I don't think this has been stated anywhere - obviously, given the choice, P6 should be preferred to P7, but that's slightly different. The onetime loops at Lewes and Sevenoaks would presumably be managed in the same way now?
In any case, the "one-side-only" practice is used at places with no third rail such as Carlisle (AFAIK) - it males dispatch easier apart from anything else.

 

[DanNCL]

Carlisle platform 2 uses both faces.

One side to disembark and the other to join.

Not sure if it's different with 156s, but certainly when the 37 hauled sets went in to P2 at Carlisle the doors were only released on one side - the P3 side.

 

[Deepgreen]

Platform 7 at guildford is not used because there is a concern that when a passenger falls between the train and platform they will land on the 3rd rail.

That's only part of it - as the track there has a platform on both sides, only one side is used, to allow door closings to be observed adequately. It is operationally inconvenient at the very least to have doors in use on both sides of a train at a station. Norwood Junction used to suffer from this in slam-door days with p1 and p2 serving a single up line.

Canary Wharf on the DLR also has that set-up, which puzzled me the first time I used the station. My guess was that it's to facilitate cross-platform interchange between trains from Lewisham to Bank and trains to Stratford, though I'm not sure if that's correct.

Yes.

 

[Bread & cheese]

It is operationally inconvenient at the very least to have doors in use on both sides of a train at a station. Norwood Junction used to suffer from this in slam-door days with p1 and p2 serving a single up line.

In slam door days at Ascot, there used to be two dispatchers, one each on platforms 1 and 2, to dispatch Reading to Waterloo trains.

 

[bluegoblin7]

IIRC at Stratford, the westbound Central line has platforms both sides and still opens doors both sides, one side for boarding and the other for exiting.

Free boarding on both sides at Stratford.

The LU examples are mostly (all?) at terminii (eg Morden) or turn-back locations (eg Golders Green), so there is going to be a pause anyway.

Yes and no. With the exception of Stratford they are all at termini or turn-backs, but many of those turn-backs can be used for through running. Even then, not all locations with platforms on both sides will open on both sides.

Canary Wharf on the DLR also has that set-up, which puzzled me the first time I used the station. My guess was that it's to facilitate cross-platform interchange between trains from Lewisham to Bank and trains to Stratford, though I'm not sure if that's correct.

The key difference with the DLR is, of course, that it uses bottom contact 3rd rail, so there is less of a danger of coming into contact with it should someone go down the gap (which is also pretty much non-existent on the DLR).

I don't know what happens at Barking Platform 2 now - with S Stock and with Platform 1 (which formerly served the GOBLIN) now being mostly disused.

With D Stock, however, at some point over the year, a change in procedures occured. Previously, the doors on the left hand side travelling east (on the unnumbered, narrow, platform joined to Platform 1)were closed before the doors on Platform 2 itself. Later on (certainly by the time that the GOBLIN was incorporated into the Overground) the opening and closure of both doors seemed usually to occur simulatneously on both sides, despite the unnumbered side being increasingly frequent used.

Barking has evolved in recent years, due to a combination of step-free access and a difference in how S stock and C/D stock work in terms of closing up. Whilst both stocks interacted there was a mix in process.

For all trains running east (District line), doors will open on both sides to provide easiest interchange, and access to the lift on platform 1. For trains terminating at Barking at reversing via the sidings (all H&C and some District), doors will open on platform 2 only (in theory), as there are no longer porter buttons on the exterior of cars to close up. This expedites the tip-out process as the car door passenger buttons are now used, with a slight delay to close up each car.

There isn't a standard around whether in-service trains close both sides simultaneously or staggered - this would be driver preference, depending on their view of the PTI.

At turnback locations like Arnos Grove, the double-sided centre road is for terminating trains and allows passengers wanting to continue to the terminus to get the next train cross-platform and gives London-bound passengers all of their services from one platform.

At places like Arnos doors are generally opened initially only on the appropriate side for customers to continue their journey cross-platform. After an appropriate amount of time, these are closed and the other side opened for new passengers to board for the other direction (generally into town).

Central line @ Stratford & District line @ Barking

Full list of LU 'double-sided' platforms and their usual usage:

• Arnos Grove centre road (2&3) - one side at a time, for direction of travel
• Barking (unnumbered/2) - eastbound only, as described above
• Cockfosters centre road - all trains, platform 3 only
• Golders Green centre road (3&4) - one side at a time, for direction of travel. Platform 1 is not in public use
• Loughton centre road (2/3) - one side at a time, for direction of travel.
• Morden centre road (3&4) - all trains. Platform 1 is not in public use
• Stratford (3/3a) - westbound only, both sides all trains
• Uxbridge centre road (2) - all trains, platform 3 only
• White City centre road (2&3) - reversing trains only, one side at a time

 

[WAB]

At places like Arnos doors are generally opened initially only on the appropriate side for customers to continue their journey cross-platform. After an appropriate amount of time, these are closed and the other side opened for new passengers to board for the other direction (generally into town).

Unless it has changed recently, the situation at Arnos, generally the appropriate doors are opened first, followed by the other side. Before departure, the arrivals doors are generally closed very shortly before the departures door is closed. It is usual for both sets of doors to be open for a considerable period of time. Other locations may vary…

 

[bluegoblin7]

Unless it has changed recently, the situation at Arnos, generally the appropriate doors are opened first, followed by the other side. Before departure, the arrivals doors are generally closed very shortly before the departures door is closed. It is usual for both sets of doors to be open for a considerable period of time. Other locations may vary…

Having double checked the line info book for the Picc, you are correct, although as always this isn’t a rule so may be deviated from on a per train basis.

 

[Fenchurch SP]

I don't know what happens at Barking Platform 2 now - with S Stock and with Platform 1 (which formerly served the GOBLIN) now being mostly disused.

With D Stock, however, at some point over the year, a change in procedures occured. Previously, the doors on the left hand side travelling east (on the unnumbered, narrow, platform joined to Platform 1)were closed before the doors on Platform 2 itself. Later on (certainly by the time that the GOBLIN was incorporated into the Overground) the opening and closure of both doors seemed usually to occur simulatneously on both sides, despite the unnumbered side being increasingly frequent used.

They still open on both sides, usually Platform 2 a second or two before the other side. There is usually an announcement for passengers requiring step free exit to use the left hand doors.

 

[Falcon1200]

Carlisle platform 2 uses both faces.

One side to disembark and the other to join.

Next time I'm at Carlisle I will check, but I don't believe that is the case; The trains using Platform 2 (Cumbrian Coast) are not so busy that simutaneous alighting and boarding is necessary!

 

[Deafdoggie]

Before HS2 Euston had platform 18, which was both sides but no third rail.. there was a strict rule of one side only though (that platform dates from the motorail days).

It was platform 17 and was marked as 17A one side and 17B the other. It was used until fairly recently to disembark passengers one side and passengers could then be ready to board on the platform straight away on the other side in times of disruption for a quicker turn around. But I certainly wouldn't say it was used regularly, but I certainly used it like that relatively recently-thinking about it, back in London Midland days!

 

[Crossover]

This is going to sound like a stupid question (because, let's face it, it is a stupid question!), but do modern units have the ability to open both sides of doors at the same time? Or is there some sort of interlocking that prevents this?

I expect that in no small part, the dispatch procedure is what prevents this (notwithstanding my stupid question) - as, on SWR at least, the dispatch is that the guard sees what's happening on the platform, closes all doors except theirs, steps onto the platform again, checks again, gets back into the train, closes their door, gives two on the buzzer, and off we go. To have to do that twice would massively increase the dwell time.

I feel like I have seen this answered on the forum before and my recollection is that whilst the doors can be all opened, hitting to close doors would do all of them and the train can't be monitored at both sides at the same time.

If it is the case, it is probably something that can be technologically overcome but it wouldn't pass a cost/benefit analysis, I would expect

 

[185]

It was platform 17 and was marked as 17A one side and 17B the other. It was used until fairly recently to disembark passengers one side and passengers could then be ready to board on the platform straight away on the other side in times of disruption for a quicker turn around. But I certainly wouldn't say it was used regularly, but I certainly used it like that relatively recently-thinking about it, back in London Midland days!

Wasn't one side shorter than the other, with some magic gate you had to go and open before the passengers got off?

 

[Towers]

Back to Guildford, realistically, situations like that platform face (7) not being fenced off are far worse safety risks than safely extending third rail systems; those regulators blocking it need to be investigated for spending all their resources concentrating on that - when far worse unsafe situations like this at Guildford still exist.

Absolutely this!

There is also surely a higher or at least equal risk of someone falling from the unfenced platform edge onto the conductor rail directly underneath it when there is no train present, than there is of managing to fall into the really rather tight gap between the platform and a running board of a train when boarding or alighting. And yet there is no fencing present. An odd sitution, really!

 

[Deepgreen]

Absolutely this!

There is also surely a higher or at least equal risk of someone falling from the unfenced platform edge onto the conductor rail directly underneath it when there is no train present, than there is of managing to fall into the really rather tight gap between the platform and a running board of a train when boarding or alighting. And yet there is no fencing present. An odd sitution, really!

If a train arrives and the doors are released on the wrong side, sooner or later someone will alight into the fence and will be injured one way or another. Given that p7 is advertised as being out of use, the risk of passengers congregating on it for a train is very low, and thus the risk of someone also then falling onto the track is similarly very low, Whether it is lower than that of someone alighting into a fence is questionable. There are similar situations in many places (already cited in this thread) and they are not fenced either. I imagine risk assessments will have been done. However, yes, extending the third rail to Reigate would be a low risk for large gain, but that's been done to death elsewhere!

 

[185]

If a train arrives and the doors are released on the wrong side, sooner or later someone will alight into the fence and will be injured one way or another.

Thinking logically, if the driver arrives and sees the fence completely blocking that side - from beyond the buffers to the other end, the physical barrier would more than likely deter them from dropping the doors on that side. Always the risk of a wrong side release error at any station, however a physical obstacle alongside the length of the train would naturally deter a guard or a DOO driver from making that mistake.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Wasn't one side shorter than the other, with some magic gate you had to go and open before the passengers got off?

I think, and I'm open to correction here, the short side could do up to 8 carriages. Which is probably why Virgin (as then was) only used one side.
I think the gate was put in after they stopped using it, but again I'm totally sure. I only remember using it once.

 

[westcoaster]

Next time I'm at Carlisle I will check, but I don't believe that is the case; The trains using Platform 2 (Cumbrian Coast) are not so busy that simutaneous alighting and boarding is necessary!

Also on all modern stock, doors both sides will close when the door closed button is pressed. No way to be on both sides simultaneously for the door close PTI check.

 

[Towers]

If a train arrives and the doors are released on the wrong side, sooner or later someone will alight into the fence and will be injured one way or another. Given that p7 is advertised as being out of use, the risk of passengers congregating on it for a train is very low, and thus the risk of someone also then falling onto the track is similarly very low, Whether it is lower than that of someone alighting into a fence is questionable. There are similar situations in many places (already cited in this thread) and they are not fenced either. I imagine risk assessments will have been done. However, yes, extending the third rail to Reigate would be a low risk for large gain, but that's been done to death elsewhere!

That’s a very fair point!

 

[Krokodil]

I have always thought that setups like this could be very effectively utilised for the 'Spanish solution' to shorten dwell times.

I'm sure that I read somewhere that this is the plan for St Ives.

It was platform 17 and was marked as 17A one side and 17B the other. It was used until fairly recently to disembark passengers one side and passengers could then be ready to board on the platform straight away on the other side in times of disruption for a quicker turn around. But I certainly wouldn't say it was used regularly, but I certainly used it like that relatively recently-thinking about it, back in London Midland days!

Shame that this set up isn't normal. It would do away with the Euston stampede.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I'm sure that I read somewhere that this is the plan for St Ives.

They kind of do something similar in peak season. Passengers waiting to get on go behind the platform to a waiting area there. Passengers arriving then get straight off onto the platform and leave and the passengers waiting behind are let onto the platform and straight onto train.

 

[craigybagel]

Also on all modern stock, doors both sides will close when the door closed button is pressed. No way to be on both sides simultaneously for the door close PTI check.

Not on everything I've ever signed (a mixture of BR, early privatisation and brand new stock). It might be different using the close doors button on the drivers desk (if fitted), but on the guards panels it only closes one side at a time.

 

[QueensCurve]

Plenty of them about (or former such). Usually a combination of space, layout constraints, expected heavy traffic, or perhaps a desire to use one side mainly for passengers and another for mail/parcels.

Finsbury Park has 2 double-faced lines - North and Southbound Slow Line 1, which was presumably for heavy commuter traffic expected.
Stratford Central Line has 1 where doors open both side for interchange to rail services on different platforms.
Lewes had one (since filled in) which I think was mainly because of the limited site and constrained complex layout.
Horsted Keynes has one on the Bluebell which isn't quite as clear why but did provide a 2-island main-and-loops layout while also allowing a conventional Side-platform station building in common with others on the line.

There are also several bays with faces both sides for space reasons although these have usually had one side fenced off to make despatch easier (Nottingham and Carlisle IIRC).

Likewise Sellafield and Ulverston.

 

[Bigfoot]

If Guildford P7 cannot be used due to the nearside third rail

I don't think this has been stated anywhere - obviously, given the choice, P6 should be preferred to P7, but that's slightly different.

It hasnt been stated here but it is stated very clearly in the instructions for train crew who 'sign' Guildford.

Very much a tea and no biscuits meeting afterwards.

 

[Bartsimho]

I can only think LU allows it due to there not being a guard or dispatcher on the platform and it's being one through screens the driver watches so both sides can be observed at once.

It does feel like an optimisation NR could employ at certain stations.

I don't buy the safety aspect as it is clearly allowed at NR managed stations even if it is as part of a non NR system as surely NR still has ultimate say on what it considers safe at their owned stations.

 

[zwk500]

Likewise Sellafield and Ulverston.

A full list is probably for a separate trivia thread!

 

[Lemmy99uk]

Next time I'm at Carlisle I will check, but I don't believe that is the case; The trains using Platform 2 (Cumbrian Coast) are not so busy that simutaneous alighting and boarding is necessary!

Also on all modern stock, doors both sides will close when the door closed button is pressed. No way to be on both sides simultaneously for the door close PTI check.

The doors are not opened or closed simultaneously. On arrival into the platform the Guard releases the doors on the platform 1 side to allow passengers to disembark. Once the train is empty the doors are closed.
If the train is going straight back out, the doors will then be released on the platform 3 side.

I think it’s the result of the resurfacing work that was done on the island a few years ago. There is now a fence between platforms 3 and 2 because of a height difference which has narrowed the area for boarding and alighting. The use of the platform 1 side on arrival eliminates the contra-flow of passengers that used to occur.